fire aura is fine as is. i have played a fire/ss tank for a little over 2 yrs now and have yet to see any real problem with it. burn is fine as is. fire will make you run and that is exactly what it does for all of 2-3 secs or 2-4 ticks of damage. look at other aoe fire powers and it makes the baddies run.
firey embrace: does not need changing due to the fact that it is a build up power and not a to hit power. how many toons do you know of that get 2 build ups rather then just build up and aim or just aim?
consume is fine. if you are running out of end before it is back then you have a poorly built toon that is using to much end.
fire aura is just like dark armor, one of those sets that you only need 5 powers out of to work. which leaves more power selections to make up for anything that might be lacking.
and i can tell you from experience that you do not need hasten in a build to make anything faster. all you need is set bonuses. i had my fire/ss to 93.5% recharge before moving him to freedom and building for PvP there. thanks to having to slot heavily for kb protection i lost some recharce but my numbers improved over all. that is just a PvP build.
on my PvE build i'm working on (not buying recipes just using what i drop) i will have 2700 hp with 35.3 hp/sec regen and 3.57 end/sec recov. granted i only will have 68.8% recharge but that will definately be enough.
Burn: lets mobs run back and forth while they are being damaged by any other DoTs you have on them.
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This is actually the stupidest retort you can have.|
Originally Posted by Ignicity
If your not happy with Burn because of the scatter, don't take it. Worried about loosing your immobilization protection by not having burn; take combat jumping like fire tanks have been doing since the dawn of time. But don't tell me that if I light a bonfire under your ***, your going stand there.
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By this same token, when some lights me ablaze with a fire blast, I'd be running.
So what's the difference between Fire Blast & Burn to not cause massive running?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
the fact that fire blast does not have a fear effect stamped into it...
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yep fireball sure makes those baddies run wow /end sarcasm|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
fire aura is fine as is. i have played a fire/ss tank for a little over 2 yrs now and have yet to see any real problem with it. burn is fine as is. fire will make you run and that is exactly what it does for all of 2-3 secs or 2-4 ticks of damage. look at other aoe fire powers and it makes the baddies run.
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firey embrace: does not need changing due to the fact that it is a build up power and not a to hit power. how many toons do you know of that get 2 build ups rather then just build up and aim or just aim? consume is fine. if you are running out of end before it is back then you have a poorly built toon that is using to much end. fire aura is just like dark armor, one of those sets that you only need 5 powers out of to work. which leaves more power selections to make up for anything that might be lacking. |
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and i can tell you from experience that you do not need hasten in a build to make anything faster. all you need is set bonuses. i had my fire/ss to 93.5% recharge before moving him to freedom and building for PvP there. thanks to having to slot heavily for kb protection i lost some recharce but my numbers improved over all. that is just a PvP build. on my PvE build i'm working on (not buying recipes just using what i drop) i will have 2700 hp with 35.3 hp/sec regen and 3.57 end/sec recov. granted i only will have 68.8% recharge but that will definately be enough. |
now set bonuses ok I'll play fire armour is OK for lolpvp as everyone calls it but for pve we start adding set bonuses and my shield scrapper can survive in situations your fire armor tank would get eaten alive in. Yep a scrapper not only tougher but can wipe mobs about 10 times as fast. Does that sound balanced at all to you? cause it doesn't to me and that just means fire armor for scrappers is even worse.
first of lucky, i did not say that all fire aoe powers did this. reading comp for the win. as for only needing 5 powers, that is really all you need if you build right. and again i am going to ask why fire aura is being comparred to shields? shields is defensive and fire is resistance. then you want to compare tanks to scrappers... pick a damn AT to compare things and stick to it, not this comparring one at to another.
You guys have brought up some really great ideas for the set! I really like what others have said about looking at consume.
I have a Fire/Ice Tank and even with Stamina and Consume I am sucking down blues. I know Both sets are hard on end but JEEZ lol. I feel like I should slot my tank only with Accuracy and End Reduc.
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This shows you are talking tripe.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
Shield Defense has 2 damaging powers., Shield Charge and Against all Odds.
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AaO is a toggle that adds +Damage to your attacks. You need to be in range of enemies, you need to be attacking them, and making acc checks and using end with each attack.
Stop blaming all of FAs ills on Shield. Shield has mitigation on par with WP, minus the massive regen and other buffs, making up for it with Shield Charge and a few other trinkets. It is balanced. Leave it alone.
FA and DA, however, ARE underperforming. DA is far too end consumptive and has too many 'gimmick' powers while not being solid enough to stand up very well on its own. FA also suffers from lack of staying power.
I'd say BOTH sets are made weaker by the holes in them; KB in both cases and immob in FA. Burn arguably has that, but it is still a rather clunky way of leveraging a hole that should not, really, be there.
But leave shield alone. That works fine.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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<QR>
To the posters that think Shield Charge is overpowered,
I think you're viewing it from the wrong angle. I think the aspects it was balanced around is the damage vs the recharge. SC isn't something you can pull off all the time, possibly not even every spawn. And no, IOs shouldn't be applied with talking about balance. The DPS of SC probably falls behind that of normal AoEs.
When comparing FA and SD, SC is better for quickly destroying large groups while Burn is better to take down single targets (you just need some control to keep that target in place). If you think about it, SD sort of *needs* to get rid of all those minions and weakened Lts because the set has no means to recover lost HP. Long drawn out fights with a whole bunch of enemies will end up with you being dead. Not really the same with FA.
That is to say, I think they could look at FA some more. I think it'd be nifty if Consume was sort of like a Shield Charge for FA, but rather than KD, it offers endurance per target. The range is already there just increase the damage some, lower the recharge a tad and lower the +END per target to compensate (like +5% per). I doubt there's a need to change much else with the set. It works fine and feels pretty offensive to me.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
first of lucky, i did not say that all fire aoe powers did this. reading comp for the win. as for only needing 5 powers, that is really all you need if you build right. and again i am going to ask why fire aura is being comparred to shields? shields is defensive and fire is resistance. then you want to compare tanks to scrappers... pick a damn AT to compare things and stick to it, not this comparring one at to another.
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I apolagize for what probably seemed like a snappy remark I just feel strongly on the subject is all.
Fire armor is being compared to shields because fire armor is suppose to be THEE offensive set but shield comes in and steals the thunder not only with shield charge but AAO a toggle that increases damage output for the more enemys that are in range. Then I compared shield scrapper only saying it was stronger then fire armor for tanks AND it's for scrappers that translates to fire armor even weaker o scrappers. I just don't think any tanker should be less surviable then any scrapper.
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That is, if you think Immobilizes are that debilitating. Sure, it's a nuisance when all of a sudden you can't move. When that happens just drop a burn and be on your way.| Burn arguably has that, but it is still a rather clunky way of leveraging a hole that should not, really, be there. |
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no problem man. just tryin to keep the topic to one power set. no harm meant or taken.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I apolagize for what probably seemed like a snappy remark I just feel strongly on the subject is all.
Fire armor is being compared to shields because fire armor is suppose to be THEE offensive set but shield comes in and steals the thunder not only with shield charge but AAO a toggle that increases damage output for the more enemys that are in range. Then I compared shield scrapper only saying it was stronger then fire armor for tanks AND it's for scrappers that translates to fire armor even weaker o scrappers. I just don't think any tanker should be less surviable then any scrapper. |
On a scrapper, go with darkness mastery and get tenebrous tentacles. Immob em, light burn under em, and watch with delight. (Since burn's recharge is so much lower than SC's, you will be able to deal much more dmg with it.)
On a tank, go with earth mastery and 3-slot quicksand with slows. Light burn and watch with delight.
On a brute, take a patron AoE immobilize. Light burn and watch with delight.
Rinse and repeat.
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Here we disagree. SD has only one power that actually does damage. That is SC. AAO is a Buff/DeBuff power. I consider it along the lines as Fiery Embrace. It has a element that affects opponent's damage output, but does not do actual damage.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
Shield Defense has 2 damaging powers., Shield Charge and Against all Odds.
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NOTE: I will be referring to the Scrapper version of FA (and using my Katana/Fire for reference) for the purpose of my replys...
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Lets review Fire Auras damage. Blazing Aura - Effective Damage Toggle. It seems to do slightly more damage than Lightning Field and Death Shroud but not by very much. |
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| Consume- Mainly used as a Endurance management tool. Because it does a very small amount of damage it has a 180 second recharge and requires accuracy slotting so its damage ends up being a liability and decreases a players overall damage output by not providing sufficient endurance as compared to other endurance powers like Power Sink. Slotting for damage would also be a waste. |
For the record, my Katana/Fire Scrapper has Consume 3-slotted right now w/2 Performance Shifter IOs and one Multi-Strike IO, all in the upper 20s. I have effective SO strength in ACC & Recharge. The Power as is works fine as I use it.
As for Endurance Recovery goes, unmodified, Consume recovers 1/5 base Endurance values. That is 1/5 per Target. So even slightly modified, you can get it to 1/4 base Endurance Values. If you have four to five Targets in in Consume's AoE your back to full End. You look at that as a bad thing?
So what it it requires a ACC check to hit? It is not that difficult to work up enough IOs to Frankenslot it or take it to four slots for a End Mod, ACC, Dam, and Rech or lose the Dam and add a second Rech.
Also in your OP, you compared Power Sink to Consume.
To Compare:
Recharge: Consume: 3 Min., PS: 1 Min.
END Cost: Consume: .52, PS: 13 (Yes, 13 End)
AoE Range: Consume: 20 Ft., PS: 10 Ft. (Both Powers affect 10 Targets Max.)
Recovery: Consume: 20, PS 25
Secondary ability: Consume: Moderate Fire Damage to target, PS: END loss on Target w/added chance of additional END loss
Personally, I'd take Consume.
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| Burn- Causes mobs to disperse and run thus doing hardly any damage at all. |
I know the Fear Element is a PitA, such is life. So I have to chase a Critter or two. That is a minor issue to me.
Is the Fear Effect a little strong? Maybe it is. It could be dropped a notch or two. Is the Fear duration a little too long? Personally, I'd say yes by 3-4 seconds. It shouldn't be longer than the duration of the DoT.
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| FE- Significantly increases damage for a short time. |
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| ROTP- You would have to die, everytime, let me repeat that , everytime , in order to use its damage. Even if someone was willing to do this ROTP has I believe a 5 minute base recharge. So no , you cannot factor in the damage from it because you can only use it occassionally. This idea of dying to use this rez/attack also contradicts the need to strengthen Fire Aura's surviviability since it would make this strategy less useful. It is time to drop it and realize it is foolish to factor in its damage. |
RotP is a T9. You honestly can't work T9s into a average value listing, save for some of the Melee T9s. I may have implied including it in the overall damage, that was not my intent. I felt RotP had to be included because you felt it was not needed and failed against your lousy premise:
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| The concept of Fire Aura is less damage mitigation for greater damage but the damage isnt there except for Firey Embrace. |
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So the only powers we have that are good on damage are Blazing Aura which is not unique and other powerset have a damage toggle similar and FE which is unique. Currently Shield Charges 2 damage powers out damage all damage powers in Fire Aura unless you have a immobilize or Controller with you. This is a balance issue. |
Where the non-T9 Powers are concerned, the overall damage is fine, as is the Resistance Protection given by the Two Armors, Temp. Protection, Healing Flames, and Burn.
Now I will admit my Katana/Fire runs with a Plamt/Emp Troller a lot. But I can solo just as well with this same Character just as well. I have no quams about taking Alpha Strikes and the like.
I feel Fiery Aura is Fine as is. Your desire to change it otherwise is pure hogwash.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
Why would a fireball cause NPCs to run. After it explodes it is gone. But summoned flames should use Avoid not Afraid.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
This shows you are talking tripe.
AaO is a toggle that adds +Damage to your attacks. You need to be in range of enemies, you need to be attacking them, and making acc checks and using end with each attack. Stop blaming all of FAs ills on Shield. Shield has mitigation on par with WP, minus the massive regen and other buffs, making up for it with Shield Charge and a few other trinkets. It is balanced. Leave it alone. FA and DA, however, ARE underperforming. DA is far too end consumptive and has too many 'gimmick' powers while not being solid enough to stand up very well on its own. FA also suffers from lack of staying power. I'd say BOTH sets are made weaker by the holes in them; KB in both cases and immob in FA. Burn arguably has that, but it is still a rather clunky way of leveraging a hole that should not, really, be there. But leave shield alone. That works fine. |
I think you need to chill buddy or re-read the thread. I am not advocating any change to Shields
And your statement about AAO is useless nitpicking. AAO increases damage. End of story.
Re-read the thread and realize we are on the same page.
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I had that experience on my SOed out lvl 32 Fire/Fire. Despite having 3 slotted stamina and Consume with 2 acc , 2 rech , 2 end mod, he still was sucking wind in between Consumes recharge. Of couse the people who do not want Fire Aura buffed will just say we both suck and its our fault Consume is a poor recovery power.
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Originally Posted by Negate
You guys have brought up some really great ideas for the set! I really like what others have said about looking at consume.
I have a Fire/Ice Tank and even with Stamina and Consume I am sucking down blues. I know Both sets are hard on end but JEEZ lol. I feel like I should slot my tank only with Accuracy and End Reduc. |
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i have a fire/fire scrapper that is just fine on end. why you ask? because i understand how to play fire. and at lv 22 i decided to go with IO's which don't expire and give you a litle more for your buck. i also, per my own tastes, do not take blazing aura as the damage is minimal to the end cost. as for attacking with fire to keep end, fire does dot, you don't need to keep attacking something until it is in the coffin. that lightens the load on the end a bit.
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
I had that experience on my SOed out lvl 32 Fire/Fire. Despite having 3 slotted stamina and Consume with 2 acc , 2 rech , 2 end mod, he still was sucking wind in between Consumes recharge. Of couse the people who do not want Fire Aura buffed will just say we both suck and its our fault Consume is a poor recovery power.
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Are you serious? Blazing Aura is more endurance-efficient than most any Scrapper attack, and Fiery Melee's attacks only outstrip it if their additional damage components fire, which isn't always the case. It's far too late for me to do the math to show it, but it's there. Basic Scrapper attacks are balanced at 12.030-12.031 DPE, while Blazing Aura gets 13.231. It's not worlds better, but it's far from "minimal."
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
i also, per my own tastes, do not take blazing aura as the damage is minimal to the end cost.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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that's why i said it was per my tastes. i don't like BA personaly.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Are you serious? Blazing Aura is more endurance-efficient than most any Scrapper attack, and Fiery Melee's attacks only outstrip it if their additional damage components fire, which isn't always the case. It's far too late for me to do the math to show it, but it's there. Basic Scrapper attacks are balanced at 12.030-12.031 DPE, while Blazing Aura gets 13.231. It's not worlds better, but it's far from "minimal."
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I have herostats recordings showing damage auras actually deal more damage than patron AoE attacks. Over a 10 minute period, I had lightning field deal 40k damage. That's 66 DPS by itself. That's hardly nothing.
I do not have a demorecord of a shielder, but if I assume it deals 10x300 damage on a brute (hitting 10 targets at one time because you rarely hit 16), and then proceed to calculate the amount, I get 60,000, which isn't that much greater than what I got in game from a damage aura. That's also assuming a player has gotten the 90 second recharge down to 30 seconds, which is only possible with IOs.
Not only that, but the blazing aura is a toggle, which means at the same time that it is dealing damage, I'm using my other powers to attack, supplementing my attacks.
I find I must disagree with your opinion
I would just be happy if they removed the damage portion of Consume and lower its recharge.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
So many things need improvement in this game...And we are arguing about FA....Again....For the umpteenth millionth time?
lol. 'Nuff said.
I still don't get the logic behind people wanting to remove RotP. What's so bad about it? Oh no, you have to die. Newsflash for you. You WILL die. It happens, even to those people with mega-expensive IO builds. Being able to get up when it happens, and not only that but deal substantial damage to everything around you and be flat out invincible for fifteen seconds afterwards, is useful.
Also, there's a badge for getting debt you know. It's not like it's a hugely bad thing.
As for the rest, sure. I could go for frontloaded damage on burn, moving the immob protection to one of the toggles, and general improvements to consume to make it not massively worse than almost every other power of its type out there. However, I would ask everyone to remember the cottage rule - taking powers out and replacing them with something entirely different simply isn't going to happen. Even if it WAS a good idea, which IMO it isn't with RotP at least.
[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: STOP!
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[Admin] Emperor Marcus Cole: WHAT IS A SEAGULL DOING ON MY THRONE!?!?
You compared the recharge of Consume with Power Sink, but you forgot to compare the recharge of energize and healing flames. Not only that but it costs 13 endurance to fire power sink. I think consume costs 0.63 endurance.
As for shield charge, you're looking at it from the standpoint of IO's. On a character using SO's you might have it fire once every 45 seconds without hasten, but you're then sacrificing potential accuracy/end/damage. In that 45 seconds, your dmg aura has fired 22 times. You deal around 20+ damage a tick on a brute running 80% fury. I don't see a vast difference between those numbers.
The difference is that SC is a front-loaded damage capable of benefiting from recharge bonuses to reduce the recharge to a point where there is a noticeable advantage on shield.