Tell me about firearm functions
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2010-01-04 03:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually from what I've heard it was developed for the Mossad, not the military. The idea was to have a pistol which was pretty much guaranteed to punch through whatever vest someone might be wearing and get a kill.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And what the hell would possess someone to even develop a weapon like the Desert Eagle? I mean, I can see why people by they, I can even see why some people fire them, and I can DEFINITELY see why they're so common in games and movies, but for something this seemingly impractical to be developed by a military force? How did that happen? |
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In that sense I suppose a car is more safe if you don't fuel it up, but it's not terribly useful for when you actually need it. |
Originally Posted by Human_Being
I say it is "inherently less safe" because it takes one less conscious action to proceed in discharging the weapon. To me it's in the same vein as "always treat a gun like it's loaded" and "never point a gun at something you don't want to shoot": don't make the weapon ready to fire unless you are about to shoot.
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If you are carrying a gun for a reason, having it ready to go is rather important, and to be quite honest if something bad does happen, the gun is a hell of a lot less safe for you without a bullet in the chamber.
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I believe that in civilian use it has also picked up a following with those who like to hunt with handguns.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Actually from what I've heard it was developed for the Mossad, not the military. The idea was to have a pistol which was pretty much guaranteed to punch through whatever vest someone might be wearing and get a kill.
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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
On a side note, I'd love it if they changed references to "clips" in this game to "magazines".
Such as masterminds>thugs>empty clips. Mags would work too.
The media popularized an incorrect term, and it bugs me. :P Since everyone is so knowledgeable now, maybe we can nip that issue in the bud for dual pistols.
I doubt it though. Lol
( I'm half kidding. Don't bite my whole head off. :P)
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Or as a back-up weapon. I know someone who hunts wild boar with a bow. The Desert Eagle is in case he misses.
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Originally Posted by Kiken
I believe that in civilian use it has also picked up a following with those who like to hunt with handguns.
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That's what instructor body armor is for! |
Originally Posted by Psychosus
I couldn't agree with this more. I just have to add the rule I give to my students in my law enforcement/corrections academy:
:: puts on her red Instructor polo shirt:: Shoot nothing red! |
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Love the car/gas analogy. Hope you don't mind if I shamelessly steal that!
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
In that sense I suppose a car is more safe if you don't fuel it up, but it's not terribly useful for when you actually need it.
If you are carrying a gun for a reason, having it ready to go is rather important, and to be quite honest if something bad does happen, the gun is a hell of a lot less safe for you without a bullet in the chamber. |
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I'm not too sure about that.. If I remember correctly, from when the Desert Eagle first showed up on the firearms scene, it was developed by a U.S. company who then sold the design to an Israeli company, Israel Military Industries for production. Despite their name, IMI is a private company, and the Desert Eagle was never intended to be anything more than a "sporting" firearm. I have never heard of any military or law enforcement unit anywhere in the world using them, although I think Saddam Hussein had a gold-plated one to go along with his gold-plated AK. |
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Actually from what I've heard it was developed for the Mossad, not the military. The idea was to have a pistol which was pretty much guaranteed to punch through whatever vest someone might be wearing and get a kill.
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If it's being carried for professional reasons, yes. The professional is carrying the weapon at all because it is believed such recourse may be all that can protect their or someone else' life. In that situation, being seconds too slow matters. A lot.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
In that sense I suppose a car is more safe if you don't fuel it up, but it's not terribly useful for when you actually need it.
If you are carrying a gun for a reason, having it ready to go is rather important, and to be quite honest if something bad does happen, the gun is a hell of a lot less safe for you without a bullet in the chamber. |
To my reading, all of the actual discussion of firing handguns in this thread has been in the context of collectors and enthusiasts (unless I missed it). For sporting, prevention of accidents while having fun is more important than being able to defend yourself at a moment's notice.
You explained your peeve. I explained my earlier statement. You gave context for your position. I've given some for mine. I suggest we drop it here.
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Fair enough. Sometimes I forget to account for my own professional bias and background when responding. I carry a firearm every day at work, and much of the time when not at work as well, and that certainly colors my thinking. In retrospect, there is nothing wrong about your statement, in the context in which you have framed it.
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Originally Posted by Human_Being
If it's being carried for professional reasons, yes. The professional is carrying the weapon at all because it is believed such recourse may be all that can protect their or someone else' life. In that situation, being seconds too slow matters. A lot.
To my reading, all of the actual discussion of firing handguns in this thread has been in the context of collectors and enthusiasts (unless I missed it). For sporting, prevention of accidents while having fun is more important than being able to defend yourself at a moment's notice. You explained your peeve. I explained my earlier statement. You gave context for your position. I've given some for mine. I suggest we drop it here. |
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Eminently sensible. One of my father's hunting friends went bowhunting for wild boar without a side-arm and was torn to shreds for it.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Or as a back-up weapon. I know someone who hunts wild boar with a bow. The Desert Eagle is in case he misses.
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The boar never touched him....it's just that the only tree close enough for him to climb was a Honey Locust
.As to why they made the Desert Eagle, it's for the same reason that they made a bolt-action, civilian version of the Barret 50 Cal Sniper Rifle.
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Ok, I guess there's two sporting purposes where you'd be using a handgun. The first would be target shooting, and in that case until you are on the line aimed at a target, you should be transporting the gun completely unloaded. Most ranges don't allow you to bring guns in loaded (unless you have a carry permit, and even that's isn't universal). |
Originally Posted by Human_Being
To my reading, all of the actual discussion of firing handguns in this thread has been in the context of collectors and enthusiasts (unless I missed it). For sporting, prevention of accidents while having fun is more important than being able to defend yourself at a moment's notice. |
For hunting purposes it's either pistol hunting or as a backup weapon, in which case you are going to want to ready to fire pronto also. Then again most handgun hunting it with revolvers, so it's rather moot.
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Well it was something I heard a while back. May well not be true. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I'm not too sure about that.. If I remember correctly, from when the Desert Eagle first showed up on the firearms scene, it was developed by a U.S. company who then sold the design to an Israeli company, Israel Military Industries for production. Despite their name, IMI is a private company, and the Desert Eagle was never intended to be anything more than a "sporting" firearm. I have never heard of any military or law enforcement unit anywhere in the world using them, although I think Saddam Hussein had a gold-plated one to go along with his gold-plated AK.
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In any case, it's never been a bad marketing decision to sell "The most powerful handgun" even if only for a little while. There's always someone willing to spend a lot of money for that big bang, no matter how impractical. Heck, why else would the .500 S&W magnum exist? Those things are preposterous. I rented on once, and good lord that thing is excessive.
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Nothing inherently less safe, no. If you know what you're doing, and have the training and skill to do it without thinking, then a firearm is, in practical terms, less dangerous to you than your shoelaces. In my time in the army I've not once had an negligent discharge, purely because I don't act an idiot with my weapons. Even when you're patrolling on instant (round in chamber, safety off, weapon at shoulder) you shouldn't have one even if you trip over because your finger shouldn't be in the trigger guard.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Nothing personal, but I've got to jump on this one. It's one of my pet peeves. There is nothing that is inherently less safe about carrying a modern semi-automatic pistol with a round chambered as opposed to with an empty chamber, provided the operator is properly trained and follows proper safety procedures.
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The problem isn't that the ideal is flawed. The problem is that the ideal is only the ideal. Aside from two complete idiots I know, everyone I know who's let off a round without meaning to did it because they were exhausted and out of it. They did the same things they do every time, because that's what the training is for, but they didn't catch themselves when they made a simple mistake.
This is what safety precautions are for, and why you shouldn't have a round chambered unless you specifically need to have that round chambered. It is true that it takes more than that for you to shoot unintentionally, but it also means that there is one less thing that has to go wrong for you to screw up and potentially kill someone.
Modern firearms are generally safe in trained hands. This does not mean anyone can be complacent about safety. At the end of the day these tools are the product of ten thousand years of people trying to figure out how to kill other people better, and they are extremely good at it. Being a little paranoid means you aren't going to accidentally kill yourself, or worse, someone else.
Glock's are nice, but I find them to be overpriced for what you get.
Also, if you're firing a semi-auto, do NOT allow the webbing between your thumb and trigger finger to be caught in the slide mechanism. There are few things that will bring tears to your eyes and four-letter words to your lips quicker than this. You may be wondering how I know this...
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It's not quite as bad as making a blank-fire barrel change on a Minimi and grabbing the actual barrel to lift if off. I'll leave it to your imaginations as to what happens, with a hint; after two hundred rounds through one of these the paint on the end turns black and starts smoking, and you don't swap barrels until at least 600.
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Going to have to agree with you there.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
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Well, I'm glad to see that people who actually know what they're talking about popped in to help Sam out. I was working with a decent grasp of the priciples of it, but little understanding of the actual mechanics.
In answer to something Mr. Tow said:
A machine gun works much the same as a semi-auto (at least a submachine gun does).
The difference lies in the mechanism which restrains the firing pin until you pull the trigger. On a semi-auto handgun when you pull the trigger the hook snaps back into place as part of the process. That is why it is called "semi-automatic", because you must pull the trigger with each round fired. On a submachine gun keeping the trigger depressed keeps the hook out of line with the firing pin, allowing it to cycle repeatedly until you release the trigger, which moves the hool back into place.
I suppose on a semi-auto the firing pin restraint and trigger would be two seperate pieces of metal using a mechanism I can't accurately describe. I also suppose you could design a functional submachine gun in which the firing pin restraint and the trigger were a solid pice of metal attached to the gun on a swivel with a spring to return the trigger to it's starting position.
But that's a sheer guess on my part, as I displayed the limit of my firearms knowledge earlier in the thread.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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This is a little crude, but my CAD doesn't work with Windows 7.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
OK, the exploded view finally showed me what a "bolt" is, and it isn't at all like what I thought it was. Basically, if I'm reading the picture right, it, err... Looks like a small flute
 Basically, it is a inner pipe with a capped end and several holes in the side, one of which I assume is for the round to load into, and the other for the round to eject out of. I'm assuming this rotating bolt somehow screws inside the barrel, possibly inside the slide, hence why it is a rotating bolt. From the looks of it, it doesn't rotate much, no more than probably a quarter turn just to align holes with the barrel and the slide opening and eject the spent shell casing. |
The Green is the barrel.
Red is the bolt.
Gray is the slide.
Gold is the shell casing.
The bolt isn't much bigger than the cartridge, and the only part of the cartridge that actually goes into it is the very end where the rim is found.
The small holes in the bolt are for the various pins that make the extractor work. Think of it like holding a wine glass horizontal by hooking your fingernails under the base of the glass.
The face of the bolt has a small hook on a spring that holds the cartridge in place. The small holes you saw were fore the various pins and springs that hold that claw in place. On thew opposite side is a small pin, smaller than the ink well in a ballpoint pen in diameter. This will push the bottom of the casing out on one side, while the hook holds it on the other. This levering action will flip the spent shell out of the bolt, and ideally, through the ejection port.
This is getting into parts that are very small. Not quite watch guts small, but small enough that dropping on a carpet wastes about 30 minutes in swearing and sweeping the floor with a magnet.
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But at this point it's coming to my own bed time, as well, so I'll look more into this tomorrow. Though, I have to admit, this kind of mechanics is actually pretty interesting stuff. Maybe I missed out that I didn't pull things apart when I was a kid. But hey, now I can buy stuff for this precise reason Not guns, obviously, but smaller, more mundane stuff. I really need to figure out what goes into a door lock one of these days, just so I'm not afraid to unbolt one for fear I'll never put it back together again.
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*edit* Oh, and I can see how it would turn and how it would lock. People who actually know this stuff will laugh at me, but that actually kind of looks like the mechanism inside a retractile ball-point pen Which, by the way, is a deceptively ingenious invention in itself. I've pulled a few apart in my life, and the more complicated ones can be amazing. I think I found one with three springs in it once
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The automatic revolver works essentially like a ball point mechanism. God, I spent a lot of time figuring out how those pens worked. I didn't get it until high school, and I think it was a see through pen at that.
My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
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I can also recommend against slapping the magazine into a 45 as seen on the opening credits to Magnum PI. Getting a pinch of skin trapped between the mag and the mad well will meant that you can't get the magazine out without locking the slide back and pushing from the top while pressing the release button, all with one hand.|
Originally Posted by Defenestrator
Glock's are nice, but I find them to be overpriced for what you get.
Also, if you're firing a semi-auto, do NOT allow the webbing between your thumb and trigger finger to be caught in the slide mechanism. There are few things that will bring tears to your eyes and four-letter words to your lips quicker than this. You may be wondering how I know this... |
Still not as bad as the minimi barrel I'm sure, but still worth avoiding.
Also, death springs and field stripping can inspire fond memories. And bruises. And a dent in the ceiling int he basement. But best of all, it told me where not to sit in the "field strip the .45 class in basic." Those guys at the front right of the room got shelled big time.
My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
That's the amazing thing about the Minimi; it's so good at hurting people it doesn't even need to have rounds or even a barrel to give you a terrible day.
The best part about it is that if you don't lock the barrel in properly before you dry-fire it the entire barrel will fly two or three metres away with a resounding SPANNNGGG. It's so unnaturally fitting for something so stupid I can't help but wonder if it was built that way.
Also, the first time people learn to fit the spring back in the butt. The sheer number of springs that were improperly locked and thus went flying backwards into the user was inspiring.
And then the bit where they told us that if you fial to fire and there's a round in the chamber them slam it shut, hands on face, and turn away because it'll probably explode. The funny thing is, they do.
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That diagram actually helped a lot, to be honest. I can see why it's called a bolt, where it sits and what it does now. Funny how elaborate technical diagrams can kick you in the teeth but a simple (is this MS Paint?) drawing with all the complicated crap stripped away can be much easier for an idiot like me to grasp. Thanks, I think I see what you mean now.|
Originally Posted by Tog
The face of the bolt has a small hook on a spring that holds the cartridge in place. The small holes you saw were fore the various pins and springs that hold that claw in place. On thew opposite side is a small pin, smaller than the ink well in a ballpoint pen in diameter. This will push the bottom of the casing out on one side, while the hook holds it on the other. This levering action will flip the spent shell out of the bolt, and ideally, through the ejection port.
This is getting into parts that are very small. Not quite watch guts small, but small enough that dropping on a carpet wastes about 30 minutes in swearing and sweeping the floor with a magnet. |
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| Heh, as luck would have it, I learned how to pick locks in high school. When you're ready for that one. Give me a shout. |
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YES! If you get how a ball point retracts, this is very similar, only rather than turning continually it turns one way to lock, then the other way to unlock. The casing just rests on one end like the ink well part of the pen. The automatic revolver works essentially like a ball point mechanism. God, I spent a lot of time figuring out how those pens worked. I didn't get it until high school, and I think it was a see through pen at that. |
I think the coolest pen I've ever pulled apart had a body and a cap at the end that screwed onto the bolt, with a spring between the body and cap around the bolt to prevent the common problem of the button sinking down when the ball point is out. It also had a two-part body, since the cone at the bottom was actually glued to the body and the ink stick was far too wide to fit through the hole. So you ended up needing to unscrew the top of the cap off everything, slide the cap off, remove a spring, unscrew the top half of the body, remove that, a button, and the bolt, pull out the ink stick and finally another spring at the bottom, then lay it all side by side and have all your classmates give you dumbfounded looks
I'll actually have to look up another pen like this. I love that design
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just to add a bit of context here, as far as it goes for me, my interest in the subject is purely academic, as I have no hands-on experience with firearms and, given my monetary situation and screwed-up country, will probably never have any. On the other hand, I enjoy understanding things, and this might actually come in handy if I do decide to write some more detailed written fiction, which I probably will come Going Rogue. Already I have a few specific concepts, being explained to me just what kind of arm strength one would need to fire an unreasonably large weapon one-handed, so that will have an effect on future characters. Well, provided BABs is kind enough to give as a truly oversized gun for women |
Originally Posted by Human_Being
To my reading, all of the actual discussion of firing handguns in this thread has been in the context of collectors and enthusiasts (unless I missed it). For sporting, prevention of accidents while having fun is more important than being able to defend yourself at a moment's notice.
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He's had a history of not wanting to go too big with weapons, and the "automatics" for female Masterminds are positively puny, while the larger guns are not colour-tintable. One only hopes that with the process of actually making new guns as opposed to just stripping them off existing enemies.But again, guns are complicated, fascinating machines that I enjoy on a purely technical aspect, at the very least. I have not, however, ever wanted to fire them at anything alive, going as far as to stop my father from shooting a rat with an air pistol. We eventually let the rat go (after chewing on my door and several bookcases), so it was all good
But like watches and, yes, ball-point pens, they're just interesting machines. In fact, I really miss the "How do they do it?" and "How it's made" programmes on Discovery, since my god damn cable provider dropped the channel. Viasat Explorer just doesn't cut it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yeah, I kind of figured something like that was at work, especially when I read about a possible machinegun failure which caused the hook to fail, in turn causing the machinegun to fire without trigger input. The way I figure it, full auto fire is achieved by the mechanism sliding back and reloading, but the firing pin not being retained in waiting for another shot, but just repeating its strike under spring power, until trigger release returns whatever mechanism retains it back in place.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The difference lies in the mechanism which restrains the firing pin until you pull the trigger. On a semi-auto handgun when you pull the trigger the hook snaps back into place as part of the process. That is why it is called "semi-automatic", because you must pull the trigger with each round fired. On a submachine gun keeping the trigger depressed keeps the hook out of line with the firing pin, allowing it to cycle repeatedly until you release the trigger, which moves the hool back into place.
I suppose on a semi-auto the firing pin restraint and trigger would be two seperate pieces of metal using a mechanism I can't accurately describe. I also suppose you could design a functional submachine gun in which the firing pin restraint and the trigger were a solid pice of metal attached to the gun on a swivel with a spring to return the trigger to it's starting position. |
In this case, I have to ask why this isn't done for pistols, but then I would guess it has something to do with recoil, accuracy, mass and "handedness."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Modern handguns are almost without exception all "drop safe", meaning that the gun cannot fire without the trigger being pulled, due to passive mechanical safety devices built into the design of the firearm. Long-guns such as rifles and shotguns are a different story, and it is generally a good idea to store or carry them with an empty chamber until it is necessary to use them.
Considering this is a thread about firearms, I think this is an excellent point to bring up firearms safety. There are four simple & easy to remember firearms safety rules. If every gun owner (including police and the military) followed these basic rules 100% of the time, no one would ever get injured or killed with a firearm accidentally.
1. All guns are always loaded. There is no such thing as an unloaded gun!
2. Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target AND you have made the decision to fire.
4. Know what your target is and what is beyond it.
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Shoot nothing red!
Defenders do it with protection.
Blasters do it from behind.
Tankers do it with a group.
Controllers do it with restraints.
Scrappers do it with a death wish.