Tell me about firearm functions
By
Aisynia,
Posted on: 2010-01-04 03:53 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
This thread does not pertain to my interests. It gives me new ones instead.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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That's kind of how I got interested into this, myself |
Originally Posted by SkarmoryThePG
This thread does not pertain to my interests. It gives me new ones instead.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That exact picture is what I posted in BABs Dual Handguns thread, and that is indeed very accurate |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yeah, this is all speculative based on Sam's Faust C-41 from Advent Rising:
 Its supposed to be a "concussion pistol" with "armor piercing rounds." Sam was just asking what a "concussive armor-piercing round" might actually be. Its supposed to fire a 0.90 caliber round, which is practically half a grenade. |
As well, the quote I keep giving is a direct quote from the game that the firing range instructor gives when you walk by the cabinet that holds probably two dozen of these. It's not the whole description, as I'm recalling this from memory of a game I haven't played in two years. Your description does sound interesting, though. I know what armour-piercing rounds are (which, by the way, would not just be longer to maintain ballistic stability, but be LONGER STILL to attain a piercing tip), and I guess I should be looking at what a concussion pistol is. That could very well be something to do with the firing mechanism much more so than the rounds, themselves. It IS seriously future technology, and it could explain why it doesn't break hands when it fires.By the way, Advent Rising is just heaven for implausible pistols. There's the Faust described above, then there's the H.A.Z.E. Blaster, which has a fusion reactor inside and fires energy bolts, and can be upgraded to fire energy GRENADES, and the alien Talon pistol, which can fire rounds that can ricochet off targets and hit up to I three people per shot
The pic of the Faust doesn't look very impressive because it's a direct dump of the in-game model, but the design itself is sound, and I just love me a .90 cal pistol, no matter how silly that may be
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The explanation I had for it was that it wasn't what you used to hunt elephants. It was what the guide carried to babysit they guy that was hunting elephants. When stuff went horribly wrong, it was good to know that you had an "i win" button. They were just too expensive to shoot often.
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Originally Posted by uberschveinen
Speaking of the nitro express, the first time I heard of it I was so intrigued by what the hell they had been thinking when they made it I spent a few hours trying to figure out if there was anything in the world that you could ever need that powerful a round for. Other than guaranteeing a kill on a rampaging bull elephant shot through a baobab tree, there's really not that much use to it.
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My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
I still think it's ridiculous. There's no feasible practical use for that sort of round. If you're going to be ridiculous you might as well be properly ridiculous and just take a Karl Gustav and refuse the warhead for soft targets.
Once upon a time they did make four bore rifles. These were black powder elephant guns. They shot a bullet of around 1800 grains at 1300 fps. The diameter of a four bore is about an inch. Yes, that would be 1 caliber, or 25 mm.
Too many alts to list.
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Of you have to shoot through the horns and skull of a charging water buffalo, then I suspect no gun is too much. |
Originally Posted by uberschveinen
I still think it's ridiculous. There's no feasible practical use for that sort of round. If you're going to be ridiculous you might as well be properly ridiculous and just take a Karl Gustav and refuse the warhead for soft targets.
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Elephants may get all the press, but the African water buffalo was the real threat. They rile really easily, and charge might fast. They also have very thick skulls with the horns adding extra protection from head on.
Too many alts to list.
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This isn't true since you can shoot 20 mm guns. In fact the standard anti-armor weapon once upon a time was a 20 mm bipod mounted rifle (Lahti or Solothurn for example). They become obsolete with thicker tank armor at the start of WW II. Mind you there's isn't much practical reason to do this anymore since missiles are a lot more convenient. |
Originally Posted by uberschveinen
The thing about these sorts of rounds is that they need to be a certain size before it is plausible to carry a payload. .50 is the smallest round you can get where adding a payload will not be strictly worse, and even then the round not particularly more effective. The largest round of any practical use to a human firer isn't capable of proper payloads.
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| The solutions are simple. Either mount it on a platform, or deal with the recoil. |
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| Grenade launchers follow the latter path in part. They greatly increase the size of the round to 40mm, big enough for a really nice payload, and then reduce the proportion of propellant to mass. They don't follow the same ballistic flightpath as bullets, which in this case is advantageous because you can arc the rounds to shoot over cover. They're still size-restricted because past 40mm the absolute minimum force to project the round needs more propellant than the recoil can take. |
Too many alts to list.
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Ignoring for the moment that 1890 was well before 1946, there is a matter of portability. A double rifle, fully loaded still came in at rifle size and under 12 pounds (5 kilos) and can get off two shots faster than any action in use at the time. Sure it's overkill, but when dealing with African game, it's not overkill by much, and definitely not at the time.|
Originally Posted by uberschveinen
I still think it's ridiculous. There's no feasible practical use for that sort of round. If you're going to be ridiculous you might as well be properly ridiculous and just take a Karl Gustav and refuse the warhead for soft targets.
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They needed something light and fast that could still put any living creature on it's butt without worrying about shot placement. Bigger was the answer.
My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
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Then there's people like Walter Bell, who had a thirty-five year career as an elephant hunter up to 1930. He shot over 1,000 elephants in that time, most with 6.7 mm, 160 grain bullets.|
Originally Posted by Tog
Ignoring for the moment that 1890 was well before 1946, there is a matter of portability. A double rifle, fully loaded still came in at rifle size and under 12 pounds (5 kilos) and can get off two shots faster than any action in use at the time. Sure it's overkill, but when dealing with African game, it's not overkill by much, and definitely not at the time.
They needed something light and fast that could still put any living creature on it's butt without worrying about shot placement. Bigger was the answer. |
The thread's gone on a slight tangent here, but if anyone's interested in this kind of historical big game hunting, I'd recommend searching up a copy of Peter Hathaway Capstick's Death in the Silent Places or Death in the Long Grass. The former is about larger-than-life hunters of the 1800s and 1900s. The latter is about the big game animals themselves and smaller but still lethal creatures that would be encountered with them; it has chapters with titles like "Leopard", "Cape Buffalo", and "Crocodile".
Capstick himself was a professional African hunter and the books are very well written; showing evidence of someone who spent years telling stories around a campfire for entertainment.
The anti-materiel rifles don't count, because they're of no practical use now. Talking about practical use ever is difficutl because technology for payloads has really gone places in the last few decades because fo advances in material sciences.
Incidentally, those rifles could only be fired while prone and after digging in the bipod legs, basically, making yourself an impromptu platform.
Also, the thing about water buffalo and worse, hippos, is that they're generally obvious about what's going on and are happy enough to leave you alone if you stay away from the water.
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Wait, I keep hearing about these "anti-material" rifles, but I don't know what that actually means. What are these rifles supposed to shoot at? Not tanks, obviously, but vehicles, maybe? What? Supply crates? |
Originally Posted by uberschveinen
The anti-materiel rifles don't count, because they're of no practical use now. Talking about practical use ever is difficutl because technology for payloads has really gone places in the last few decades because fo advances in material sciences.
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I've seen supposed anti-material rifles in a lot of games, but they don't seem terribly effective against vehicles OR infantry, so either I'm missing something, or these games are very badly designed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally they were anti-tank rifles, like the Boys anti-tank rifle and the Mauser Tank-gewehr. They were something you could give to troops to penetrate the armour back in world war one, when it was only really resistant to standard caliber weapons. While they weren't much good, they meant that soldiers could actually fight tanks instead of just running away.
Then, tanks got better. Materials science improved and they got more heavily armoured. There was no longer a way to make effective man-fired anti-tank rifles, but a whole stack of these rifles in use. So, they did what the army always does for things it's too invested in to actually toss out, and foudn a new job for them.
Anti-materiel (with an 'e' and a squiggle on top, it's French) rifles are meant to destroy vehicles and equipment less armoured than a main battle tank. These are generally transport or infrastructure items, collectively referred to as materiel, hence the name. They're useful because they can break things from much further away than a block of comp B and FBT. You use them to puncture the engine blocks of very light vehicles, the cabin or the wheel-well of proper military vehicles, and the vulnerable points of armoured vehicles less resilient than tanks. You can employ them to break fixed defenses in rare occasions. In modern warfare, they're absolutely fantastico for counter-IED work, because you can blow them in place from a few hundred metres instead of a few hundred millimetres, on the rare occasion you can afford to blow in place.
The games don't portray them well, because games need to be more fun than accurate.
EOD RIFLE TECH - THE GAME
SPEND A WEEK DOING NOTHING ON BASE
GET CALLED OUT TO A SUSPECTED IED
LOOK AT A LUMP OF TURNED EARTH THROUGH BINOCULARS WHILE FIFTY ARMED MEN IN CONVOY MAKE STUPID JOKES
SHOOT EARTH ANYWAY
BURROWING RABBIT GOES "WHAT THE CRAP WAS THAT?"
TOP SCORE
To be honest the Desert Eagle is actually a fine weapon. And can also be easily modified to fire as a .357, .45, and the all impresive .50AE.
While not old enough to have fought in desert storm I come from a long military line namely Marines. And two of my much older cousins did fight in Desert storm and used the Desert Eagle during that time.
If I remember what they told me correctly the Desert eagle was designed to not only punch through armor but also to withstand conditions such as the desert. Which is aslo why its a pain in the *** to clean for first timers or people who are used to much easier guns to clean as it was made to keep dirt, sand, and other things out of the gun in the first place.
I own 2 myself one was my cousins which has never been fired since he gave it to me. The other is a newer model my step grandfather bought for me when I was 16 which became my side arm of choice when we went hunting. I also have a barrel extension mod along with a stock modification for it. The gun is amazing and at least in my hands highly accurate though you really dont have to be with the size of the round >;p http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Eagle
If you feel the gun is to much power for you but like the design and quality I would then sugggest the (baby eagle) Jericho 941 which uses a similiar design concept and sticks to the high amount of barrel mods allowing for 9mm, .41AE to be fired. Or you can get the newer modles which come in 9mm, .40s&W, and .45acp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Research_Baby_Eagle
I would also like to suggest the H&K G36 if your ever interested in getting your hand on an assualt rifle One of my favorites ouside of the Marine M4 carbine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%26K_G36
Kaoru Nan'drak 50th seasoned Broad sword/regen werewolf scrapper Justice
BOSS UP OR GET TOSSED UP - NURSETTE-
Founder and leader of The Crimson Moon -justice-
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If you can't pull back the slide then being able to **** the hammer is meaningless as you need to rack the slide in order to load the first round into the chamber to begin with.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Generally, larger caliber and larger bodied automatics have an external hammer as a way of cocking the gun for those who lack the arm strength to pull the slide back, as larger guns usually have much larger springs that require some muscle to move. If you've ever tried to **** a 1911A1 Colt .45 using the slide you know what I'm talking about. The hammer is there so anyone can use it regardless of their physical strength.
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Also some designs don't have an external hammer at all, such as GLOCKs and Springfield XDs. Once you've racked the slide the gun is loaded and the internal striker is primed. The XD will indicate this with a small pin on the back of the slide that sticks out when the striker is set to fire.
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Double and Single Action still apply to semi-autos. There are quite a few that are Double-Action only and some that are Single-Action (like the 1911) in which you need to **** the hammer for the first shot but the slide will reset it automatically after each shot. Most though have both modes, like my CZ-75 where the first shot can be either double or single action but every subsequent shot is single action.|
Originally Posted by GrinningSpade
As far as I know, Single Action and Double Action is only used in revolvers. The double action revolvers (which I understand is the norm nowadays) did two things when you pulled the trigger. They rotated the cylinder AND they pulled the hammer back so you could shoot again.
With the single action revolvers you had to manually pull the hammer down. This resulted in the special maneuver called "Fanning the hammer" for rapid fire. I knew that those Deadlands books were useful one day besides playing the game  |
If you want a fine 9mm, you can't go wrong with the CZ-75. CZ also makes some .40 and .45 models as well.
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Absolute, 100%, unadulterated BS. If they told you that, they are spinning you a bit of a tall tale there. No U.S. military unit has ever used the Desert Eagle handgun. To my knowledge, no 'real' military unit anywhere in the world has ever used them either. They were designed purely as a sporting/recreational handgun design.
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Originally Posted by KaoruNanDrak
While not old enough to have fought in desert storm I come from a long military line namely Marines. And two of my much older cousins did fight in Desert storm and used the Desert Eagle during that time.
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a handgun thats realistic and fires a lot of bullets is called a machine pistol .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol
Why go futuristic , when you have the real thing around
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Oh dear.|
Originally Posted by KaoruNanDrak
To be honest the Desert Eagle is actually a fine weapon. And can also be easily modified to fire as a .357, .45, and the all impresive .50AE.
While not old enough to have fought in desert storm I come from a long military line namely Marines. And two of my much older cousins did fight in Desert storm and used the Desert Eagle during that time. If I remember what they told me correctly the Desert eagle was designed to not only punch through armor but also to withstand conditions such as the desert. Which is aslo why its a pain in the *** to clean for first timers or people who are used to much easier guns to clean as it was made to keep dirt, sand, and other things out of the gun in the first place. I own 2 myself one was my cousins which has never been fired since he gave it to me. The other is a newer model my step grandfather bought for me when I was 16 which became my side arm of choice when we went hunting. I also have a barrel extension mod along with a stock modification for it. The gun is amazing and at least in my hands highly accurate though you really dont have to be with the size of the round >;p http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Eagle If you feel the gun is to much power for you but like the design and quality I would then sugggest the (baby eagle) Jericho 941 which uses a similiar design concept and sticks to the high amount of barrel mods allowing for 9mm, .41AE to be fired. Or you can get the newer modles which come in 9mm, .40s&W, and .45acp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_Research_Baby_Eagle I would also like to suggest the H&K G36 if your ever interested in getting your hand on an assualt rifle One of my favorites ouside of the Marine M4 carbine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%26K_G36 |
No military I know of actually issues the Desert Eagle. This is because it's a crappy pistol for military purposes. Some soldiers will buy it, and use it out field in armies that tolerate such antics, but they don't get issued them.
When you're fighting, you don't want to fight with a pistol. You want to fight with your rifle, which is much more accurate, easier to shoot, and has a better capacity, as well as the capacity for automatic fire for when you need to pull off a fighting withdrawal. The only reason you can have for choosing using your pistol is to fight your way back to a working rifle, whether it be because you dropped it or because you're out of rounds and got seperated from your section.You want a light, easily-maintained pistol that can put rounds downrange. The size of those rounds is not relevant. You want to be able to shoot when your rifle can't long enough to get your rifle shooting again. You don't want 'stopping power' because that means fewer rounds carried means less covering fire means you don't get away. If you ever do genuinely come across someone right in front of you where a pistol can hit them any service weapon will hurt them enough to put them down. What you really don't want is massive recoil because that's going to make it impossible to lay down good rounds fast and that's going to make your reatreat a whole lot less likely. This is even more the case because you may not always have the luxury of a two-handed grip if you're hurt or trying to get someone or something out.
The Desert Eagle is a fine pistol for sport hunting, where you likely won't have a military rifle on you, and if you're in an area with, say, boars, you can actually use something with enormous power. It's also fine for competitions, which is dandy because that's what the thing was originally intended for.
What the Desert Eagle really excels at is telling people that it's awesome. Being inordinately powerful no longer needs to serve a useful marketing purpose when you make it your marketing purpose. There's a reason everyone calls the .50 the Compensator.
As for rifles, I like the Steyr. I'm used to it, and it shoots pretty well. It's also almost ridiculously light. The newer model's nice, and fixes some of the nuisances of the older ones. Only real problems are we're using the same crappy sights with the donut ring, and it's still a real bugger to clean inside the butt.
Add me to the list of people that say that no (mainstream) US military unit would use the Desert Eagle as a combat pistol. I'll even add a reason I've not seen listed yet.
Ammunition supply.
The US adopted the 5.56 NATO round back in the 60's when it switched from the M-14 to the M-16 as the main rifle. The M-60 uses the 7.62 NATO round, known to deer hunters across the US as a .308 Winchester. The Beretta M-9 was adopted largely due to standardization issues. The US was one of the only countries still using the .45 ACP round in anything. That made for a logistical nightmare if war ever broke out in Europe. There would have to be a completely different supply of pistol ammunition for US forces, and ONLY for US forces.
The chances of there being any provision, at all, for a US combat unit to be assigned a 100% non-military caliber is nil* No .44 mag. No .50 AE, no .41 mag, 10mm, none of it.
As for the Desert Eagle being made to penetrate armor: No. big and scary as it looks, it still fires the same .44 Mag round that Dirty Harry used to teach basic counting.
We did some testing on a square of bullet resistant glass (plexiglass really) on night. It was about 1.5 inches thick and it stopped .44 Mag, 45 Win Mag, .357 Mag, 10mm, and 454. Casull. The only handgun that went through it was a .357 Automag which uses a .308 case blown out straight, then necked back down to .357. A .308 and 30-06 both made it through as well. The 5.56 NATO did not.
*There may be some very rare exceptions, such as those units that have a very specific reason to NOT be caught with US military issue weapons and ammunition, but those will not be any form of front line combat troops.
For that matter, I happen to know a guy that does gunsmith work for a few covert ops groups. The only pistol I ever saw him work with at all was a 1911 or variant. The main rifle, other than an M-16 or variant, was the M-14.
My first short story (detective fiction) came out in Jan-2012. Other stories and books to follow, I hope. Because of "real writing". COH was a big part of that happening.
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The P-08 Luger uses the toggle-lock action invented by Hugo Borchardt. In the design, the breech block slides in the receiver; the back of the breech block attaches to a two-piece toggle hinged to the back of the receiver. At its full-forward position, the toggle parts are aligned with the breech block, allowing the mounting pins to carry the recoil force to the receiver, which recoils backwards as a unit. As the receiver, breech, and toggle move backwards, lugs on the toggle strike angled plates at the back of the frame, pushing the toggle joint up and 'breaking' the toggle, allowing the breech block to recoil backwards, opening the breech and withdrawing the spent cartridge. The 'break' of the toggle stretches a spring running down the back of the grip, whose force pulls the toggle back down as the receiver runs forward, stripping a new round from the clip into the receiver.|
Originally Posted by Walleye_
Further into the realm of "more info than is really necessary", but there is a fourth type of semi-automatic pistol action which was very popular in its day. The German Luger P08 uses a "toggle-locked" operation to disconnect the barrel from the rest of the toggle-assembly (for lack of a better term) as it recoils. I don't know of any other pistols that use it but it was very successful on the Lugers.
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The P-08 design suffers from a design flaw; the firing pin is released through the action of multiple levers on the left side of the weapon; the slide containing the firing pin is exposed, making the weapon vulnerable to misfires if the mechanism is not kept clean.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Double-action semiautomatics give the shooter a 'second chance' when a round fails to fire -- they can pull the trigger again to **** and drop the hammer; single-action semiautomatics with an external hammer can be recocked and fired again, but that generally takes both hands. Hammerless or internal-hammer weapons don't have that option, falling back to the same recourse as the others when the second try proves the round to be a dud -- cycle the action to eject the round and chamber a new one.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Double-action automatics do exist, but the double action only sets the hammer and does not move the slide or chamber a round. Which kind of makes sense, given how solid the recoil springs really are.
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| A rotating bolt is a bolt similar to that of a bolt-action rifle, in that it locks itself into the chamber and requires, I assume, some degree of has pressure to overcome, thus maintaining a tight seal longer. This is used to impart more energy to the escaping bullet, but comes at the cost of recoil into the body of the gun, and so into the shooter's body. |
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| Most contemporary guns use a recoil-operated mechanism to operate their auto reloading, essentially allowing a part of the gun to be forced back, which animates the rest of the gun. Gas-operated weapons, instead, use a gas chamber and piston to do the same thing and, I assume, rely less on heavy recoil springs. |
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| Automatic handguns remain half-self-loaded with the slide back, so that chambering a round is easier upon inserting the next clip. Instead of requiring a full draw on the slide, they just require that the slide be released forward, chambering a round and cocking the striker. Clever. The mechanism for achieving that, exactly, doesn't seem like it's too important, but the mechanism for releasing the slide might actually be. |
Semi-automatic designs will **** the striker either when the action reaches full recoil or when it returns to battery -- the M1911, for example, ***** the hammer as the slide recoils, while the P-08 Luger ***** the striker as the recoil action completes, loading the new round. Typically, weapons that **** the striker during the completion of the recoil cannot be recocked without ejecting the round in the chamber.
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I'm still not sure what the heck a semi-automatic revolver is, but I know at least one exists. It may not be very important for real-life purposes, but ESPECIALLY for the sake of Dual Handguns weapon customization, it would be fairly important, specifically to satisfy BABs' requirement that the gun can shoot many bullets in rapid succession. This feels like the Pancor Jackhammer of handguns. Who cares if it's not a large-scale commercial success?
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(the profanity filter is working pointlessly overtime in this thread...)
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Tell that to Magnum Research, the company that manufactures the Desert Eagle. They make the Desert Eagle in a number of finishes: Standard Black, Polished and Blued, Black Chrome, Matte Chrome, Brushed Chrome, Polished Chrome, Satin Nickel, Bright Nickel, 24 Carat Gold, Titanium Gold, Titanium Carbon Nitride, and Titanium Gold Tiger Stripe. Except for Standard Black and Black Chrome, the first eight finishes are also available with 24K gold appointments (pictures showing them are here, and yes, the ones incorporating gold or titanium look like you'd expect to find the owner fondling the gun rather than shooting it).
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Originally Posted by Tog
Also, REAL Desert Eagles are matte black.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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Equally funny is the movie cliché of jamming the muzzle of the pistol into someone's back/side/armpit -- with most semiautomatics, doing that will push the action back a little, which will prevent the weapon from firing.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Possibly a case of this. A lot of movies I've seen this in are the kind where someone would hold another person at gun point by casually holding a gun to his chest, easily within an arm's reach. No great shock is felt when the other guy grabs the gun and they wrestle like entangled tumbleweeds.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Oh, that explains it. It was a real letdown the first time I fired a GLA, until it blew up.
Speaking of the nitro express, the first time I heard of it I was so intrigued by what the hell they had been thinking when they made it I spent a few hours trying to figure out if there was anything in the world that you could ever need that powerful a round for. Other than guaranteeing a kill on a rampaging bull elephant shot through a baobab tree, there's really not that much use to it.