Wait, why Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer?
By
Adelie,
Posted on: 2009-12-21 03:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
When I lead teams, I expect 2 things:
1 - Everyone contributes to the team by making good use of their diverse powers.
2 - If you are a "support type", when you have no need to be using your support powers (like everyone is properly buffed and no one is severely hurt for example), you get in there and fight. Don't worry about whether or not you add that much damage to the fray, just help kill something.
Or in other words, to quote my Mercs Mastermind (who lifted this quote from a good ol' Scifi shoot em up...)
The reason I consistently used words like "class," "fighter" and "healer" was to try and distance the discussion from the game somewhat. It's too late in the game to be trying to rebalance City of Heroes in any major way, but I'm looking at this from a general game design standpoint. RPGs are balanced around specializations in some areas and lack of skill in other areas, but at in least the ones that come down to killing things, wouldn't it make sense to give everyone the ability to kill things as a basic skill with a specialization on top of that?
Again, back to the Lost Vikings. The game is, essentially, a platformer, yet only one of your characters can jump. Together, it kind of works, because the jumper can generally open the way for the others. However, alone, it'd be a game where you need to jump over a hole and you can't jump. Contrast this with Trine, where everyone can jump, but some are just better at clearing jumping puzzles than others.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Everyone CAN kill things.
Just some ATs are better at it.
My Rad/Sonic takes offense at the notion that he can't kill things. In the right situation he can approach blaster level damage. But what he specializes in is keeping the team safe through making it's opponents weaker.
Even the lowliest Empathy defender can kill things if you build for it. A duo of Emp/Sonics can be one of the nastiest combos in the game. Sure, if you take nothing but team support powers and skip your attack powers, never even slotting the one you HAVE to take, you're damage output is going to suck. That's a build choice and not a disadvantage inherent to the AT.
The defender's strength is keeping their team alive through making them stronger or their enemies weaker, a tanker keeps their team alive through agro management, a controller keeps their team alive by limiting their opponent's actions, blasters and scrappers keep their team alive through killing their opponent before their oponent can kill them.
All can defeat enemies, but some do it better than others. The ones who are better at defeating things are worse at other things. Blasters and Scrappers excel at killing things, but they don't bring much else to a team. You never invite a blaster for their debuffing ability, you invite them to kill stuff. Same with scrappers, except scrappers have the added bonus of being one less teammate a defender has to worry about keeping on their feet, because after level 35 almost all scrappers are self-sufficient.
I don't consider my Rad/Sonic defender to be a "support" character, because I built him to deal damage. I could have just as easily built him to buff and debuff exclusively, but I didn't.
CoH gives you much more leeway to break the mold than some other games. A defender doesn't HAVE to be a "healer" any more than a tanker has to be a pure agro magnet. You can build a scrapper to tank or a controller to deal damage, you can build a blaster to control.
They won't be as good at any of those things as the AT that was designed to do it, but it IS possible.
I ignore the idea that because I made a defender I must be a healer. I just don't like anything dictating to me how I'm going to play. If I want to build a scrapper to control, I can. It doesn't mean it will be any GOOD at it, but it is my decision.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You do realise you're describing CoV here?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Every character class in the entire game is an able fighter. Every last one of them. They all have decent defences, they all have respectable offences and they're all capable in a decent fight. IN ADDITION to that, each one can do someone else. For instance, one can fight and also heal his comrades, while another can fight and hamper the enemy, while still another can fight in melee and at range, while still another can fight, but is best at surviving heavy punishment. As long as hit points depletion is the one and only way to succeed, doesn't it make sense to give everyone decent and equal(ish) tools to do that as a basic toolkit, and then give everyone something ELSE to define their class?
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A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread
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That's naughty.
| Every character class in the entire game is an able fighter. Every last one of them. They all have decent defences, they all have respectable offences and they're all capable in a decent fight. IN ADDITION to that, each one can do someone else. |
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LOL, I thought I was the only one that noticed that. |
Originally Posted by Tangler
You do realise you're describing CoV here?
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I was with you right up until this point.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Blasters and Scrappers excel at killing things, but they don't bring much else to a team.
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My sonic/elec blaster in several cases has out-controlled controllers. I have a massive cone AoE sleep that can render an entire spawn null except for bosses. Plus a single target stun that's good for up to Lt class mobs.
If I rolled a sonic/devices, I'd be even more effective since I'd have 2 single target stuns, plus the use of caltrops and smoke grenade to further hamper my foes.
Heck, even an ice/ice is darned controllerish all on it's own.
The fact is that most people do not effectively use blasters for anything else apart from doing damage. It doesn't mean that's all they are capable of doing or even all they are capable of doing in a moderately efficient way.
It's more accurate to say that people don't invite blasters to teams for any other reason besides damage. It's also more accurate to say that most blaster players don't fully use all their given abilities. You'd be surprised at how many people still don't even know how the new Defiance works, for example.
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| You never invite a blaster for their debuffing ability, you invite them to kill stuff. Same with scrappers, except scrappers have the added bonus of being one less teammate a defender has to worry about keeping on their feet, because after level 35 almost all scrappers are self-sufficient. |
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I don't consider my Rad/Sonic defender to be a "support" character, because I built him to deal damage. I could have just as easily built him to buff and debuff exclusively, but I didn't. CoH gives you much more leeway to break the mold than some other games. A defender doesn't HAVE to be a "healer" any more than a tanker has to be a pure agro magnet. You can build a scrapper to tank or a controller to deal damage, you can build a blaster to control. |
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They won't be as good at any of those things as the AT that was designed to do it, but it IS possible. I ignore the idea that because I made a defender I must be a healer. I just don't like anything dictating to me how I'm going to play. If I want to build a scrapper to control, I can. It doesn't mean it will be any GOOD at it, but it is my decision. |
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Boy did you post it in the wrong place then.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The reason I consistently used words like "class," "fighter" and "healer" was to try and distance the discussion from the game somewhat.
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Your post makes me miss my old Bear Shaman from AoC. tanking/healing was fun as hell.
And melee/ healing was just awesome for my Disciple of Khaine in WAR.
Truly, I lived by the motto that "if you ever see me playing a healer in any game, something has gone terribly wrong somewhere in the universe" but the DoK changed that for me.
Almost every attack was also a heal, heal over time or buff for me/ my defensive target or anyone near me.
Having two seperate targets, one for offense and one for defense made DoKs and Warrior Priests truly shine in Warhammer Online, and should be available in all MMOs.
Hard to make too many sensible comments re Lost Vikings because I've never heard of it before, but one thing that struck me when I first started playing this game is how similar it is to AD&D in team make-up where the characters have their specific roles they must fill and only a good balanced team can make a real impact - whereas in some other games I sense that things are less clearly defined.
Personally I like the diversity here - I have no problem playing a character that's impossible to solo - in many ways that's what makes the game fun for me and I've tended to stay away instinctively from toons that can solo because for the most part I find soloing kind of dull.
That's my own take and not everyone else will feel the same (I hope) but I don't mind the fact that some ATs - or to be more correct some power combinations - don't solo very well.
Thelonious Monk
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A giant monster regenerates over 350 hitpoints a second. The very best minmaxed scrapper builds (employing multiple -Res procs) can barely scratch 300 effective damage a second. It is, for all practical purposes, impossible to solo a GM using combat prowess alone. So combat prowess alone isn't all that matters.
| Here is where we run across a particular problem. We can beat about the bush, but as long as RPGs ultimately come down to killing your opponent, then ultimately the only thing that matters at the end of the day is combat prowess. |
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Encouraged grouping. Where "encouraged" is somewhere on the spectrum between "hey, it'd be nice..." and "You won't make it out of the newbie zone without a full team" depending on the game.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The reason I consistently used words like "class," "fighter" and "healer" was to try and distance the discussion from the game somewhat. It's too late in the game to be trying to rebalance City of Heroes in any major way, but I'm looking at this from a general game design standpoint. RPGs are balanced around specializations in some areas and lack of skill in other areas, but at in least the ones that come down to killing things, wouldn't it make sense to give everyone the ability to kill things as a basic skill with a specialization on top of that?
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One of the complaints I kept hearing about [that other game] was "Everyone's a tank-mage and can solo just about all the content. There's no reason to group and you might as well be playing a single player game."
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Extreme example aside, there are few situations where killing things alone can't get you through the game. There are no situations that I can think of where only debuffing or only buffing or only control can get you through any situation whatsoever. Sooner or later, everything comes down to damage, which is why Controllers got Containment all those many years ago. Despite their being sold as team-centric characters, they still ended up needing to do damage. And from what I hear, they do well enough with that.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
A giant monster regenerates over 350 hitpoints a second. The very best minmaxed scrapper builds (employing multiple -Res procs) can barely scratch 300 effective damage a second. It is, for all practical purposes, impossible to solo a GM using combat prowess alone. So combat prowess alone isn't all that matters.
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But it seems to me we're not on the same page here, everyone. Yes, all ATs can do damage, and some powerset combos from the "team" ATs can even do a lot, and some powerset combos can actually be survivable, and some powerset combos can actually be survivable AND deal damage. That's DESPITE their design, not BECAUSE of it. If anyone can look at Defenders, say, and claim they were, as a general AT, designed to be damage dealers or damage soakers, then I'll just laugh and laugh. But I highly doubt anyone would do that.
My point was never "can, under certain circumstances." My point was "is designed to, expressly." So far, I keep seeing the same point - some ATs pay for their teaming prowess with lack of direct combat capability (sometimes). Why? Here is my basic question. Why does this have to be like that? Why do we need dedicated fighters and dedicated NOT-fighters? What if the game were designed where everyone were a fighter AND something else. There would be no pure fighters. Everything would be fighter/something. Say, fighter/ranger, fighter/healer, fighter/mage and what have you.
I know I'll get told it's silly, but please, do take the time and explain why. And not just because that's how it is and it works fine. This is the reason I wanted to distance the question from the here and now, and make it more of a principle one, perhaps even a question for the distant future. How is a system where everyone is a proficient fighter AND something else bad? Does one's inability specifically and expressly in itself add to the game? You're still not doing everything. In fact, you may not be able to do much at all, but you mere do NOT miss the most crucial part. And yes, it all comes down to combat in the end, unless we institute permanent, defeating status effects or diplomatic solutions.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'll take a team of Defenders of a team of Tanks any day ^_^.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Extreme example aside, there are few situations where killing things alone can't get you through the game. There are no situations that I can think of where only debuffing or only buffing or only control can get you through any situation whatsoever. Sooner or later, everything comes down to damage, which is why Controllers got Containment all those many years ago. Despite their being sold as team-centric characters, they still ended up needing to do damage. And from what I hear, they do well enough with that.
But it seems to me we're not on the same page here, everyone. Yes, all ATs can do damage, and some powerset combos from the "team" ATs can even do a lot, and some powerset combos can actually be survivable, and some powerset combos can actually be survivable AND deal damage. That's DESPITE their design, not BECAUSE of it. If anyone can look at Defenders, say, and claim they were, as a general AT, designed to be damage dealers or damage soakers, then I'll just laugh and laugh. But I highly doubt anyone would do that. My point was never "can, under certain circumstances." My point was "is designed to, expressly." So far, I keep seeing the same point - some ATs pay for their teaming prowess with lack of direct combat capability (sometimes). Why? Here is my basic question. Why does this have to be like that? Why do we need dedicated fighters and dedicated NOT-fighters? What if the game were designed where everyone were a fighter AND something else. There would be no pure fighters. Everything would be fighter/something. Say, fighter/ranger, fighter/healer, fighter/mage and what have you. I know I'll get told it's silly, but please, do take the time and explain why. And not just because that's how it is and it works fine. This is the reason I wanted to distance the question from the here and now, and make it more of a principle one, perhaps even a question for the distant future. How is a system where everyone is a proficient fighter AND something else bad? Does one's inability specifically and expressly in itself add to the game? You're still not doing everything. In fact, you may not be able to do much at all, but you mere do NOT miss the most crucial part. And yes, it all comes down to combat in the end, unless we institute permanent, defeating status effects or diplomatic solutions. |
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Then bring two scrappers. Problem solved.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
A giant monster regenerates over 350 hitpoints a second. The very best minmaxed scrapper builds (employing multiple -Res procs) can barely scratch 300 effective damage a second. It is, for all practical purposes, impossible to solo a GM using combat prowess alone. So combat prowess alone isn't all that matters.
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Someone around here has a sig line that I'm going to bastardize:
"There is no problem in this game that throwing more scrappers at it won't resolve."
There's a lot of truth there. As Sam points out, there's very little in this game that gives XP outside of defeating spawns. I'm positive that you can't level to 50 on exploration badges alone.
Due to another thread, I recently cranked up an FF/Ene defender. He's slow. Very slow. After 5 years of playing, however, I think I've reached a point where leveling speed no longer matters much to me.
Once I find the time to tear myself away from Dragon Age and L4D2, I'm going to run a new, more accurate, leveling speed test between a kin/son defender and an elec/stone brute. This last test showed a 6 hour difference between the time it took my ff/ene defender to hit 13 and the time it took my claws/wp to do the same.
However, I did content with the defender (and hero side that meant a LOT of time wasted zone hopping) versus the brute that mostly did street hunting and paper missions. The next test will be identical. Street hunt to 5, then paper missions to 12, all done with accurate time tracking.
The point of all this? A scrapper will pump out more DPS than a defender. I don't care what that defender is. Two scrappers will dish out X amount of DPS. A scrapper plus a defender will push out Y DPS. Two defenders will push out Z DPS. I don't know what those values represent but I am very curious if what groups like the Repeat Offenders are capable of is grounds enough to leave defender damage where it's at. I'm betting the answer is yes.
I can't make the same case for tanks. Especially in light of GR going live and brutes (like my em/inv) moving blueside.
Tie in to the OP: Defenders and Tanks are the only low DPS archetypes in the game. Controllers would be with them if not for containment, but you can't ignore containment. Brutes have lower base damage than tanks, but fury punches them past tank damage with a pair of punches.
Is there anything *wrong* with having everyone be a damage dealer? Redside shows us that the answer is no.
What the powers team plans to do about the weak damage dealers blueside remains to be seen.
EDIT: oh... diminishing returns on buff/debuffs countered by a bump to defender damage modifiers. Tanks get a straight buff to damage modifiers with no change because they have neither crits nor fury. Damage caps are left the same. Hmmmmm.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Tanks should buff the damage of other tanks on team ^_^.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Then bring two scrappers. Problem solved.
Someone around here has a sig line that I'm going to bastardize: "There is no problem in this game that throwing more scrappers at it won't resolve." There's a lot of truth there. As Sam points out, there's very little in this game that gives XP outside of defeating spawns. I'm positive that you can't level to 50 on exploration badges alone. Due to another thread, I recently cranked up an FF/Ene defender. He's slow. Very slow. After 5 years of playing, however, I think I've reached a point where leveling speed no longer matters much to me. Once I find the time to tear myself away from Dragon Age and L4D2, I'm going to run a new, more accurate, leveling speed test between a kin/son defender and an elec/stone brute. This last test showed a 6 hour difference between the time it took my ff/ene defender to hit 13 and the time it took my claws/wp to do the same. However, I did content with the defender (and hero side that meant a LOT of time wasted zone hopping) versus the brute that mostly did street hunting and paper missions. The next test will be identical. Street hunt to 5, then paper missions to 12, all done with accurate time tracking. The point of all this? A scrapper will pump out more DPS than a defender. I don't care what that defender is. Two scrappers will dish out X amount of DPS. A scrapper plus a defender will push out Y DPS. Two defenders will push out Z DPS. I don't know what those values represent but I am very curious if what groups like the Repeat Offenders are capable of is grounds enough to leave defender damage where it's at. I'm betting the answer is yes. I can't make the same case for tanks. Especially in light of GR going live and brutes (like my em/inv) moving blueside. Tie in to the OP: Defenders and Tanks are the only low DPS archetypes in the game. Controllers would be with them if not for containment, but you can't ignore containment. Brutes have lower base damage than tanks, but fury punches them past tank damage with a pair of punches. Is there anything *wrong* with having everyone be a damage dealer? Redside shows us that the answer is no. What the powers team plans to do about the weak damage dealers blueside remains to be seen. EDIT: oh... diminishing returns on buff/debuffs countered by a bump to defender damage modifiers. Tanks get a straight buff to damage modifiers with no change because they have neither crits nor fury. Damage caps are left the same. Hmmmmm. |
That would be awesome.
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Tanks should buff the damage of other tanks on team ^_^.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Then bring two scrappers. Problem solved.
Someone around here has a sig line that I'm going to bastardize: "There is no problem in this game that throwing more scrappers at it won't resolve." There's a lot of truth there. As Sam points out, there's very little in this game that gives XP outside of defeating spawns. I'm positive that you can't level to 50 on exploration badges alone. Due to another thread, I recently cranked up an FF/Ene defender. He's slow. Very slow. After 5 years of playing, however, I think I've reached a point where leveling speed no longer matters much to me. Once I find the time to tear myself away from Dragon Age and L4D2, I'm going to run a new, more accurate, leveling speed test between a kin/son defender and an elec/stone brute. This last test showed a 6 hour difference between the time it took my ff/ene defender to hit 13 and the time it took my claws/wp to do the same. However, I did content with the defender (and hero side that meant a LOT of time wasted zone hopping) versus the brute that mostly did street hunting and paper missions. The next test will be identical. Street hunt to 5, then paper missions to 12, all done with accurate time tracking. The point of all this? A scrapper will pump out more DPS than a defender. I don't care what that defender is. Two scrappers will dish out X amount of DPS. A scrapper plus a defender will push out Y DPS. Two defenders will push out Z DPS. I don't know what those values represent but I am very curious if what groups like the Repeat Offenders are capable of is grounds enough to leave defender damage where it's at. I'm betting the answer is yes. I can't make the same case for tanks. Especially in light of GR going live and brutes (like my em/inv) moving blueside. Tie in to the OP: Defenders and Tanks are the only low DPS archetypes in the game. Controllers would be with them if not for containment, but you can't ignore containment. Brutes have lower base damage than tanks, but fury punches them past tank damage with a pair of punches. Is there anything *wrong* with having everyone be a damage dealer? Redside shows us that the answer is no. What the powers team plans to do about the weak damage dealers blueside remains to be seen. EDIT: oh... diminishing returns on buff/debuffs countered by a bump to defender damage modifiers. Tanks get a straight buff to damage modifiers with no change because they have neither crits nor fury. Damage caps are left the same. Hmmmmm. |
That would be awesome.
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Ah, WAR... I kind of miss my Warrior Priest. I could solo level 20 yetis at level 12. (I really hated the power mechanics for WPs/DoKs when it came to RvR though.)|
Originally Posted by GibsonMcCoy
And melee/ healing was just awesome for my Disciple of Khaine in WAR.
Truly, I lived by the motto that "if you ever see me playing a healer in any game, something has gone terribly wrong somewhere in the universe" but the DoK changed that for me. Almost every attack was also a heal, heal over time or buff for me/ my defensive target or anyone near me. Having two seperate targets, one for offense and one for defense made DoKs and Warrior Priests truly shine in Warhammer Online, and should be available in all MMOs. |
Sure I did crap for damage and it took me like 2 minutes a kill, but I was never in any real danger of dying through the entire fight.
*sniff* Memories
EDIT: On topic... I think the entire reason that all characters are not equally self sufficient is that, If everyone were there would be very little reason to team.
'That Other Superhero Game' kind of demonstrates this. In the entire (admittedly, relatively short) time I played I might have gotten a team invite (or even asked if I'd like to team up) Twice. Maybe.
Being able to solo most things means that many (possibly most) people Will solo most things, and having things you cannot solo, in a game that is so solo friendly just makes people upset that they can't solo it.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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You're probably right. I've seen what large groups of Defenders can do, and it is an amazing sight indeed. But then, large groups of any one AT can do amazing things, and large groups in general, regardless of team composition, are typically so strong that half the team can fall asleep and no-one will notice. That's part of the reason why people are afraid of Diminishing Returns in PvE - character strength scales VERY sharply with the size of the team, especially in the upper levels.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The point of all this? A scrapper will pump out more DPS than a defender. I don't care what that defender is. Two scrappers will dish out X amount of DPS. A scrapper plus a defender will push out Y DPS. Two defenders will push out Z DPS. I don't know what those values represent but I am very curious if what groups like the Repeat Offenders are capable of is grounds enough to leave defender damage where it's at. I'm betting the answer is yes.
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However, here's the other side of the equation - half the team can fall asleep and no-one will notice, which means that, on average, you basically have someone else to essentially fight for you. Even if you pull your weight, that just means you're giving someone else a free ride. It's just how the game is balanced. And while I don't see a problem with that (I enjoy taking lowbies along and fighting for them), it creates a rather significant difference when that team falls apart and its members have to fend for themselves. Some do just fine, others... Not so much.
Anything we can say about Defenders, and indeed Tankers, and how they have decent damage doesn't change the fact that they lag behind everybody else. Some combos can sometimes muster damage that kind of approaches that of a damage dealer, but at half the hit points and barely comparable damage, it is still slow and still underwhelming. And that's not a challenge or an insult. That's how the AT is designed from the ground up.
And this is what bugs me. Giving up combat prowess for the sake of other specialization just doesn't sit well with me, specifically since you can have combat prowess AND other specialization. It's kind of like supposedly realistic army games that send out engineers into combat armed with a wrench and a hard hat, when actual military engineers are armed like any other soldier, and just about as well-trained for combat. And I guess that's part of why everyone and their grandma seems to have some degree of super strength in comic books. It doesn't do them a lot of good, sure, but at least all of them are dangerous enough in a scrap.
This kind of over-specialization has always bothered me in RPGs, especially since it's never anything more than a player handicap. NPC adversaries never follow it. My mages are squishy and easily killed, but the enemy mages are all made of iron, encased in three forcefields and with a whole mountain range of hit points, and typically better at hand-to-hand than my fighters. And, to be quite honest, the way D&D mages are described, they ought to be, only mine never can, all for the sake of the stupid Tank/Healer/Damage Dealer formation.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Hmmm, it may be time to make Captain Pacifist. A person who levels to 50 entirely on badges and dropped missions. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
There's a lot of truth there. As Sam points out, there's very little in this game that gives XP outside of defeating spawns. I'm positive that you can't level to 50 on exploration badges alone.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I forgot dropped missions. So it IS possible. Although not possible before the servers are shut down.
Be well, people of CoH.
For Cities,I think CoH was designed using the Tank/Heal/DPS formula because of the Devs inexperience at the time. And while the game did a lot of things different, too much difference could be scary. Once they were more experienced we saw CoV where everyone was designed as a fighter/* or a */fighter.
As for why this general rule of damage dealing vs support exists, I believe it originally stemmed from balance considerations and then continued to be done that way because it was known to work.It then moved into the realm of being a traditional design.
Since you mentioned D&D ,I think 4E is pushing in the direction you want as all classes can deal damage and are all quite capable of other things. Yes classes still have thier roles, but with the right choices you can branch out into other areas. I think the problem of Tank/Heal/DPS is slowly being resolved.
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You're awesome.
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Originally Posted by Godpants
That's naughty.
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Old question, been done to death. I know. But something just struck me that I think may put a new angle on this. We all know there is an age-old complaint from soloers regarding team-centric classes. Because characters of these classes are very adept at helping others and acting as force multipliers for the team, they suffer offensive and self-protection penalties as part of proper game balance. After all, some deal damage, some take damage, some help others.
Here is where we run across a particular problem. We can beat about the bush, but as long as RPGs ultimately come down to killing your opponent, then ultimately the only thing that matters at the end of the day is combat prowess. Healers need Fighters in order to kill for them, but Fighters don't always need Healers because they are able to protect themselves well enough. This creates a sort of interesting situation, where everything works well enough in a team environment, but completely breaks down when you separate the characters and play them all solo.
The problem, when it comes down to it, is why would anyone play a Fighter who can only fight, if a Healer can fight AND heal as just as well, possibly even better? That's a very good question, but I have one even better - if a "Healer" can heal AND fight, why shouldn't a "Fighter" be able to fight AND do something else? As long as the only way to triumph is to cause the other guy's hit points to bottom out, doesn't it make sense to give EVERYONE decent offensive abilities? And when I say decent, I don't mean "exist on paper," I mean offensive abilities that actually make a point. Picture the following:
Every character class in the entire game is an able fighter. Every last one of them. They all have decent defences, they all have respectable offences and they're all capable in a decent fight. IN ADDITION to that, each one can do someone else. For instance, one can fight and also heal his comrades, while another can fight and hamper the enemy, while still another can fight in melee and at range, while still another can fight, but is best at surviving heavy punishment. As long as hit points depletion is the one and only way to succeed, doesn't it make sense to give everyone decent and equal(ish) tools to do that as a basic toolkit, and then give everyone something ELSE to define their class?
Right now, team-centric RPGs are a little like the Lost Vikings, in that there is one guy who can kill, one guy who can offer protection and one guy who can offer other abilities. Personally, I'd like to see them move a little closer to Trine, in that each character is capable of doing everything, only some can do some things more easily. The Rogue can shoot things to kill them and grapple to climb the terrain. The Sorcerer can crush things to kill them and build to climb terrain. The Knight can plain old kill things, and can still jump around to climb terrain. All can do everything, just some are better at some things than others. I understand the need for balance, but I have to wonder - why can't everyone be good at the bare essentials, which are killing stuff, and then specialise from there? In fact, isn't that kind of how Warhammer 40 000 is designed? Even the medics and librarians wear power armour and carry around machine guns and axes.
I understand the draw of specialization, but wouldn't it really make sense to let everyone be decent at fighting for his life? One would think all super heroes would need to be, in order to have survived long enough to level up, right?