What Are Heroes Running FROM?

I somewhat agree...

Then again, if it's something like my post in response to Dispari (to unlock the firebase, you must defeat a player for the key) a ways back, I'd think we'd be putting up another barrier to entry (or, alternatively, another reason to farm - I think eco pointed that one out) for some characters. My Earth/FF is... well, essentially useless in a PVP zone. Holds? Nobody's affected. Buffs are hit with diminishing returns. Damage? What damage? Short of finding an AFK corruptor, that character just can't realistically be expected to defeat another player. That character, as I recall, takes a while to defeat a *firebase* - having to do the "wear down, kill a turret, wait to respawn and kill everything" method or she runs out of time.

There's some feeling lingering here and there that if you're not a FOTM, you shouldn't bother in the zones at all. For the *most* part, that's not true (and, of course, teaming helps,) but I think something like that would swing things the other way, making it more true - again, another barrier to entry.

See my Guides and Tutorials

If you don't want PVP and are unwilling to participate in it, you have no business being in the zone in the first place. You're consenting to PVP by entering the zone, explicitly and implicitly, and then if you change your mind you're essentially going back on that agreement. You're tipping over the chessboard rather than lose your queen. It's poor sportsmanship to agree to play a game and abide by the rules of the zone then refuse to play the game when it doesn't go your way.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

I am not a PvPer but just because you say so doesn't make it so.

The PvP zones are fight club. If we go there they can attack us. That is the rules. Everything else you have written are your rules but you aren't in charge so they are irrelevant.

You blast the zone PvPers as not getting it. Honestly the anti-PvPers are the ones not getting it. We enter PvP zone, we have consented to being attacked. They can use a stalker to AS us or a blaster to snipe us.

People who hate PvP to the point that getting attacked in the PvP zones need to stay out. If you want the badges, nukes or shivans you take your chances.

The problem isn't the PvPers. We sign up when we enter. As designed by the developers. If a non-PvPer doesn't like it they should stay out of the zones or live with the risk.

I have been stopped from getting my shivans twice in all these years by PvPers, the risk is minimal. But I don't come here and complain that a PvPer stopped my fun by PvPing me in a PvP zone because that is stupid.

I think this really comes down to a subjective view of what 'sportsmanship' and indeed 'winning' is in the case of CoH Zone pvP. I agree that the chess player in your example is being a bad sport as I understand the phrase, because he actually has a game mechanic which allows him to basically do the same thing by simply tipping his King over and thereby conceding defeat. I would say that the chess player who throws the whole board away has in fact lost.

A chess player who successfully plays to a draw however; under your definition, as he has deprived his opponent of a victory, he's being a bad sport. This is a view i don't agree with.


In CoH Zone PvP, however, movement around the zone is an accepted mechanic to use in combat. I don't think you're suggesting that PvP should consist of 2 Players standing in melee range just using powers without using any movement other than that needed to get back into melee after a KB or what have you. If i have a Blaster and you have a Brute, then my preference for keeping you at range combined with your desire to close to melee is going to create a veritable ballet of wandering all over the place.

Where, then, do you draw the line? How much movement am I allowed to use in order to avoid your attacks before you call me a 'bad sport'? And if we happen to be close to an area of safety such my base, I would be a strategic idiot not to make use of it in order to regain my strenght or what have you. Lol, you too. If you were flagging and close to some of your drones, you're saying you wouldn't take shelter?

And what then? Following your 'sportsmanship' line to a conclusion, after I'd Rested, I'd be honour bound to come back out and fight you to my inevitable demise, or until i could nip back to the base for a breather, only to have to repeat the whole darn shebang again. And again, and again and again. Because according to you, it's bad sportsmanship for me to not allow you to kill me if i'm weaker than you.

When i agree to enter Bloody Bay, I see the Big Red Warning, and the Countdown of Doom, and I do 'agree to engage in PvP'. Your definition of 'engaging' is not the same as mine, however. As far as i'm concerned, if i'm attacked, I've engaged in PvP. I am PvPing; you can't PvP solo, because it takes at least two - one to attack and one to get hit (depending on the event, the attacker and the attacked may swap roles a few times, or not). The warning doesn't say that I agree to 'engage in PvP until one or both parties are defeated', so I'm within my rights to turn and run.

You seem to hold the view that EVERYONE who runs to the base and zones is doing so out of fear and/or spite. You don't know what's in my head, dude. I have had toons who are obviously AFK in BB killed. I would put the attackers there into the 'bad sports' category too, but i don't assume because of that that EVERY PvPer is going to do that to an AFK toon if they find one.

Eco.


Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

My only purpose in the zone is to obtain Shivans. That's what I'm there for, that's the only thing I'm there for. PvP is a risk, yes, but I have zero obligation to engage in it. Because I, and the vast majority of the playerbase for that matter, have no interest in PvP there's no reason at all why we should engage in it. Simply being in the zone only means we accept the risk of being attacked, it in no way means we're there to PvP.

So again, your wants do not equal an obligation for anyone else to oblige you. I frankly don't understand why you have such a difficult time understanding this.

I just spurted coffee out my nose at the fact that you had to specify an AFK corrupotr, not just any old AFK toon!

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Going to disagree with this too.

Entering the zone does not mean a person has to fight. It's not fight club. It just means you cannot complain if someone keeps attacking you whether you fight back or not.

You are just consenting to accepting that other players can attack you. Nothing more and nothing less.

I don't agree with that either. It's possible to fight to a draw in PVP, where neither of you can damage the other enough to get a win. I've had that happen twice. We bowed and decided to stop fighting. But we didn't deny each other the fight.

Conceding the match in PVP would be dropping toggles and letting them get the win. That's the game mechanic to conceding the match. Running away is tipping the board.

Agreed. I never said otherwise.

Actually, I wouldn't (too much trouble to avoid what is essentially a non-issue.) But again, this isn't the situation I was talking about. Go back and re-read my posts. My compaint has always been about people who meet these THREE CRITERIA:

1.) They actively engaged you in a fight. that is, they were in fact fighting. They may even have initiated the fight (go back to see the example I cited when I first started posting on this).
2.) they decided at some point to run away.
3.) they then ran away and then LEFT THE ZONE.

Unless all three are true, then it doesn't apply to the situation I'm discussing.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

If you don't want to encounter PvEers who use tactical evasion techniques to successfully 'run the gauntlet' of the PvP-risk Shivan Shard minigame, which as designed contains no set requirements to actively look for a PvP encounter, then you should try to find a place where every opponent you face actually desires to fight you under Rules of Engagement that you both agree upon.

I believe that place is called the Arena.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Too bad #3 doesn't count as a defeat for the runner resulting in rep and recipe for the winner.

Ok, maybe the problem is that you came into this conversation late. Let me reiterate. There's two separate things I have a problem with. Let me clearly define them:

1.) The example I cited was a tanker attacking my brute when I came out of a mission in Bloody Bay. We started to fight, I started to win, so he ran away. This strikes me as being a poor sport. He PICKED the fight with me, and then refused to finish it. He's either afraid of losing or a bad sport and just refuses to let anyone else win. Either way, it's bad form. Once you start a fight, you finish it. It's disrespectful to your opponent to tip the board when the game doesn't go your way. Give them their well-earned victory.

NOTE: this applies to people who actively engage in PVP, often as the aggressor, then refuse to play it out unless they receive an easy win, otherwise they're gonna take their ball and go home. AND ONLY THOSE people. If you're not one of them, then I'm not talking to you.

2.) People who go to PVP zones to PVE and then feel entitled to NOT BE ATTACKED AT ALL and have a chip on their shoulder about people who attack them in the PVP zone. People who expect someone to ask them nicely if they'd like to fight or leave them alone and feel that they have a right to this. Anyone who attacks them in the PVP zone is a jerk, and they shouldn't be "forced" into PVP like that.

These two things are mutually exclusive.

I hope that clears things up.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

If it did, then that'd at least be something. Probably too exploitable tho.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Ah, I see. Er, lol, in that case, I apologise. I thought you were taking the OPs point.

Someone who does behave as points 1, 2 and 3 as you describe is indeed being a bit of a poor sport.

I was referring, on the other hand, to Players such as myself, who never instigate PvP and go to PvP Zones purely to get the rewards.

I stand by my position in regard to that situation, however. If someone who's not interested in PvP is attacked and chooses to flee, Idon't see a problem.

Incidentally, this thread just made me take my 50 blaster into RV for a looksee. I was invited to join a team in short order, and then i spent 10 minutes flying around basically failing to get to a 'being defeated' villain in time to participate in his downfall. There was enough action happening, but it was fairly boring, i'm afraid.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

PVP needs alot of work in this game, no doubt about it.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Yeah, lol, I think we have now

I'll just add that I'm fine with PvPers attacking me when i'm in a PvP zone. I'll run away if i can and deprive them of the kill, but I don't think I have a right to be left alone once i'm in there. I'll sometimes ask to be left alone, but if the answer's 'no', then that's fair enough, and i'll leave.

I do get a small sense of satisfaction out of doing a Shivan Run or a Warburg nuke trio with PvPers in the zone and getting out without being engaged. For me to 'win', nobody has to die

Eco.



Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Personally, I would prefer if someone just asked to be left alone rather than run away. If someone nicely asked me to leave them be, I'd do that. If someone runs from me, however, and if I think I can catch them, I will. No Mercy.

Asking nice, sure I'll oblige, but running is like blood in the water. The good news for them is I'm not usually good enough at PVP to stop them long enough to kill them. But I might.

EDIT: That's not entirely true. Odds are in most cases I'll be too lazy and impatient to pursue, but if I'm feeling especially bloodthirsty, yeah I'll try to run 'em down.

If someone actually started RPing with me in PVP in character, I'd stop fighting and weep with joy and thus be easy pickin's.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Why do you choose to continuously ignore the advice and wisdom posters have already given you?

I'm not so sure about this situation. If I initated a fight but bolted when the tide turned against me, my opponent wouldn't have earned the victory unless he could catch me or prevent the escape, in my opinion. Dedicated PvPers more than likely have the means to prevent a target from getting away.

I also think the "retreat if no easy victory" MO is left over from the run 'n' gun days of pre I-13 PvP.

Mostly for the "no status protection toggles by default," nothing against corruptors (working on getting one of mine to 50, as it is - only base redside class I don't have there, which is surprising since I have so many defenders at 50.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

I still say this is poor sportsmanship. You start a fight, you finish it. It's bad form to pick a fight then leave when it doesn't go your way.

Yeah, they probably do. Running won't save you in that case, and they don't care if you fight back or not.

Pre I-13 wasn't even so bad in places like Bloody Bay. It wasn't until Siren's call where things were out of hand with the movement gimmicks and the like.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

So long as you understand that often, the opposite is true - running as an effective avoidance tool, while asking to be left alone is like blood in the water. Given the odds, I'd rather bet on my running than someone else's forebearance. And in any case, as you've pointed out, I agreed to the terms of the zone when I entered it. I'm not going to ask other people to modify their behaviour to suit my sense of fun - but please extend the same courtesy to me.

It's an unfortunate aspect of fast-paced competitive games that embracing the 'fluff' often results in less efficient play on the part of the player doing so. I'm not even saying this shouldn't be the case - just rather too bad that it is.

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

For the hardcore PVPers, your being in the zone is blood in the water.

We have a big divide in this game between Hardcore PVPers, casual PVPers like me, and everyone else, with the hardcore folks waaaay out on the far end of the spectrum. The gulf between each group is really really wide and there needs to be some way to make that curve alot less steep.

It is a woefully unfortunate aspect. I really wish there were some way to make those aspects more "fluff-friendly".

I tried making macros of some various threats and oaths and banter to use in PVP, but everyone just complained about "chat spamming"

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

If PvP made me feel like I was in a Spidey comic, and by that I'm referring to the banter, I'd be all over it like a rash.



Sadly, I really can't see any way of implementing any kind of narrative into PvP.

Eco.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Utter nonsense. The rules and tactics of PvP allow for running. Comparing it to flipping over a chessboard is foolish.

P.S. This item: "rules and tactics of PvP" may, or may not, be consistent with YOUR view of PvP. If not, no one cares.