None so blind as he who will not see, other than perhaps he who has been punched in the eye with a flaming rag.
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It's most likely true that they want to port over stuff that varies from what we already have, but I would welcome War Mace and Battle Axe as much as a Super Strength or Energy Melee simply because it gives me more. More choices to make more kinds of character concepts I'd enjoy playing. Shadow Knight and Valkyrior are the exact same builds except one has Super Jump, the other Flight and I get immense entertainment out of playing them both. So while I understand they'd probably go for other sets first, there would be absolutely no disappointment from me if stuff like War Mace and Battle Axe came over first. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I had thought that scrappers didn't get mace and axe because they were so close mechanically to broadsword.
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SS, while i do wish scrappers would get it so i could roll a SS/Regen scrapper and own Guardian's pvp...Does suffer one slight flaw due to the scrapper/tanker team roll debate started long ago...
Why should a Hulk-like character, who is defined as an unstoppable and massive force of destruction (and by definition is a "tanker" AT) be out damaged by, oh lets say Captain America?
I mean, Captain America would essentially be a SS scrapper (although technically he wasn't Super Strong, just pushed to the limit of the human body via the super serum). I guess you could even argue he is actually martial arts...but i digress.
Thematically, it doesn't make sense. A while ago, I suggested a low-key version of super strength be ported over (similar theme different execution) and rename this ported version to the coveted Street Fighting set people have wanted for so long. Keep your Jab, keep your haymaker, keep your basic punch. Change knockout blow to more of an upper cut type power, make it your tier 9 final attack, erase foot stomp and bring in more of a "fists of fury" type power that uses a the familiar "Flurry" animation and make it a shadow maul level damage cone. Take out Rage, replace it with a modified hybrid version of rage and build up (see below). I got flamed pretty heavily for this idea, back a few months ago during the last round of proliferations, but hey, its an idea.
Focused Damage - Your fighting spirit gives you the ability to focus your assault for 1 minute. During this time, you deal a larger amount of damage than normal, but are left drained afterwards with a minor damage debuff and the loss of 15% of your endurance.
Rech: 360 seconds
Endurance: 5 to activate, -15% crash
Damage Boost - 100% Damage for 1 minute
Damage debuff - -35% damage for 15 seconds
Of course, these numbers would need a true mathematician to be accurate and balanced, but those are just placeholders for the time being.
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Thematically (according to comic books), it doesn't make sense for any Scrapper to be even remotely equal to a Tanker. Batman v. Superman, Spider Man v. The Hulk, Wolverine v. Colossus, etc. In all of those cases, the Scrapper does substantially less damage than the Tanker and is squishier (often to the point of only winning through sheer gumption and determination through most conflicts). In comic books, Scrappers are more akin to lower powered Tankers that have to rely on stuff aside from their powers to win them through the day.|
Originally Posted by The_Terrorizer
Thematically, it doesn't make sense.
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Thankfully, game balance allows us to ignore the horrible imbalance that is comic book power comparisons. Scrappers need to deal more damage than Tankers to specifically counter the massive survivability advantages that Tankers get. You don't get the best of both worlds like you do in comic books.
As to why or why not Scrappers should get Super Strength, I think it has a lot more to do with theme. Scrappers are supposed to be more skill and agility based while Tankers are supposed to be more brute strength and raw power. The various elemental sets are rather neutral so it makes sense for both of the ATs to get them (except for Stone, which shows an exceedingly strong preference for crunch). The weapon sets still have that preference. Katana and Broadsword have Parry/DA (which, for balance reasons, will most likely never be given to Tankers or Brutes) which suggests a certain grace to fend off enemy blows. Battle Axe and War Mace are more oriented towards simply outright crushing their targets. Dual Blades breaks the mold if only because it was a complicated set to design and the devs most likely wanted to get the most out of it as possible (no matter how little sense it made for Tankers or Brutes to have a sword set that had them spinning and dancing around).
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First of all, implying scrappers are a 'finesse' at is offensive to me, lol. The game sets up scrappers and tanks as the melee at's, with scrappers doing more damage and tanks being able to absorb more. There is absolutely no reason each at couldn't, or shouldn't, share sets, and in fact already do. If the devs feel as you claim, that only scrappers could or should have more finesse sets and tanks more blunt sets, this would not be the case. The shared sets between scrappers and brutes is even more telling.|
Originally Posted by Chaos_String
Actually I think SS hasn't been proliferated to Scrappers because, like Mace and Axe, it's a set that conceptually relies on brute strength and very little finesse. (And yes, Broadswords take a lot more finesse than axes or maces--trust me on this, I'm a certified stage combatant.
 ) The devs seem to view brute force without great finesse as the province of tankers and brutes. So, if you think that SS fits scrappers "as much or more than any other powerset," then it might be a function of the fact that *you* want it proliferated. But think about it: scrappers got fire melee and electric melee already, and IMO are likely to get the other "exotic/elemental" sets (ice melee and energy melee) next, before getting those "brute force" sets SS, WM and BA. Then again, the community clearly wants to see SS proliferated a lot more than they do Ice Melee (lol) or Energy Melee (now that it's been nerfed). And now that CoX has some competition within its own niche, we're starting to see the community get the things that the community has asked for the longest. (Power customization, the 5th Column back, dual pistols, a new MM set...) So time will tell. But IMO, Ice Melee and Energy Melee will be next if the devs hold true to what I perceive as their established form. |
I think with recent events, the devs share my idea that the melee at's should share melee powersets regardless of finesse, or why would tanks have gotten sets like dark melee and dual blades? What is more 'finesse' than dual blades'? 'Nuff said.
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Comic books are a lot more varied than you seem to imply. There are many heroes and villains that have 'super strength' without massive survivability. I would even disagree with a commonly held belief on these boards. A lot of people claim spider man would be closer to MA than SS. I don't know a lot of martial artists who can pick up cars, and I don't recall peter parker going to a dojo (or having any hand to hand combat training, actually), lol. But regardless, there are many heroes/villains in comic books that clearly have super strength, but are not nearly as sturdy as say, the hulk.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Thematically (according to comic books), it doesn't make sense for any Scrapper to be even remotely equal to a Tanker. Batman v. Superman, Spider Man v. The Hulk, Wolverine v. Colossus, etc. In all of those cases, the Scrapper does substantially less damage than the Tanker and is squishier (often to the point of only winning through sheer gumption and determination through most conflicts). In comic books, Scrappers are more akin to lower powered Tankers that have to rely on stuff aside from their powers to win them through the day.
Thankfully, game balance allows us to ignore the horrible imbalance that is comic book power comparisons. Scrappers need to deal more damage than Tankers to specifically counter the massive survivability advantages that Tankers get. You don't get the best of both worlds like you do in comic books. As to why or why not Scrappers should get Super Strength, I think it has a lot more to do with theme. Scrappers are supposed to be more skill and agility based while Tankers are supposed to be more brute strength and raw power. The various elemental sets are rather neutral so it makes sense for both of the ATs to get them (except for Stone, which shows an exceedingly strong preference for crunch). The weapon sets still have that preference. Katana and Broadsword have Parry/DA (which, for balance reasons, will most likely never be given to Tankers or Brutes) which suggests a certain grace to fend off enemy blows. Battle Axe and War Mace are more oriented towards simply outright crushing their targets. Dual Blades breaks the mold if only because it was a complicated set to design and the devs most likely wanted to get the most out of it as possible (no matter how little sense it made for Tankers or Brutes to have a sword set that had them spinning and dancing around). |
And as you have stated, the devs have already given tanks some finesse, so there is no reason not to give scrappers some smash. In fact, the scrappers need some smash to balance things out, not only to match the finesse given to tanks, but to match everything brutes get, especially with going rogue coming out.
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Comic book super strength and the varying degrees in which it exists is nowhere near the same as the single degree of super strength that exists in CoX. The only available setting that we've got for super strength (insofar as you can simply say "super strength") is Hulk Smash type super strength. Sure, Peter Parker has the proportionate strength of a spider, but that doesn't mean he's using it in even remotely the same way as the Hulk does (much less that he even has strength of a remotely similar magnitude).|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Comic books are a lot more varied than you seem to imply. There are many heroes and villains that have 'super strength' without massive survivability. I would even disagree with a commonly held belief on these boards. A lot of people claim spider man would be closer to MA than SS. I don't know a lot of martial artists who can pick up cars, and I don't recall peter parker going to a dojo (or having any hand to hand combat training, actually), lol. But regardless, there are many heroes/villains in comic books that clearly have super strength, but are not nearly as sturdy as say, the hulk.
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As to what Spider Man would actually be in the context of this game, you first have to realize that his combat style matches MA on a visual level much more than it does Super Strength. He does mostly kicks and super-agile aerial attacks. Super Strength is pretty much just Hulk Smash melee. You'd never see Peter Parker doing a baseball style wind up punch or try to attack his target with a super powered hand clap or foot stomp. He's smaller, more mobile, and much more focused on using what super strength he has in a focused manner, rather than simply letting loose with it. He doesn't need training to use it in that manner, either, since his spider sense does all the work for him.
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| And as you have stated, the devs have already given tanks some finesse, so there is no reason not to give scrappers some smash. In fact, the scrappers need some smash to balance things out, not only to match the finesse given to tanks, but to match everything brutes get, especially with going rogue coming out. |
I am willing to bet you almost beyond anything that the reason that Tankers and Brutes got Dual Blades wasn't that the devs wanted to give those ATs a bit more finesse, as you seem to be implying, but rather that the devs wanted Dual Blades to get as much exposure as humanly possible to provide optimum returns for the costs incurred in generating it.
No matter how you try to argue it, Scrappers already have a decent bit of smash already in the form of Broadsword. I doubt we're going to get much more than that because BS is smash meets finesse. War Mace, Battle Axe, Stone Melee, and Super Strength are all pretty just outright smash with no finesse whatsoever.
If you're asking for set parity between Brutes and Scrappers, we're much more likely to get the Energy sets before we get anything else. If those are brought over, Scrappers will have just as many as Brutes do and it won't involve giving Scrappers powers that are outside of the existing aesthetic theme of the Scrapper sets, especially since you can already get some very Scrapper style super strength animations via MA.
I have to agree with Umbral. The Super Strength set as it stands, doesn't seem very Scrappery.
I'd also say that the only reason Dual Blades was given to Tankers/Brutes is because it was a new set, and they probably didn't want to deal with all the players who would of complained about those ATs not getting the new set.
Though with alternate animations now possible, hopefully they can make Dual Blades look more viscious, for the Brutes/Tankers.
Yes, scrappers would get that option too, but at least it would give the feel of the more brutish types.
Then again, I'm the one who's against Stone Melee/Stone Armor being ported over to Scrappers/Stalkers, as it's just not a scrapper/stalker style set.
This isn't to say they couldn't make a new set very similar to it, to make it work...but it would mean imo the need to ditch some powers.
Rogue and Spider-Man are imo the perfect example of two scrappers with super strength, the problem is, you don't usually see them pulling off the hand clap style moves, as you would superman/hulk.
It's for this reason, I think it would be a good reason to change Martial Arts. THey could esily give it that scrapper style feel of Super Strength with a power change here/some additional animations there.
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Who says they're "supposed to be"? You? The devs? General consensus? And regardless, I've never found other people's visions of "the way things should be" to be very compelling.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Scrappers are supposed to be more skill and agility based while Tankers are supposed to be more brute strength and raw power.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I have to agree with Umbral. The Super Strength set as it stands, doesn't seem very Scrappery.
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Anyway, if you don't like the idea of brute strength Scrappers and finesse Tanks, don't play them. But is it really going to ruin your game if someone else plays them? Is the fact that they exist going to break your immersion or something?
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finesse...
scrapper...
super strength...
all in the same thread
Interesting...
My own opinion is that this distinction between "finesse" (Broadsword doesn't seem very much about finesse) and brutishness did have a tenuous thematic existence originally, based on the distinctions in available powersets. However, I think this was undone with our existing poweset proliferation. For example, Tankers and scrappers both have Fiery Melee and Dual Blades, and Dual Blades very much looks like attacks with finesse.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by Werner
And Super Strength seems plenty Scrappery to me. Brutal destruction seems no less Scrappery to me than expertly-trained finesse. I've never felt that finesse was central to the Scrapper archetype. To me, the Scrapper is a melee AT. So is the Brute. So is the Tank. Whether you melee with finesse or just raw power seems a completely different subject than what archetype you're playing. I see nothing strange about brute strength scrappers or finesse Tanks. To me, archetypes are more about roles and strengths and weaknesses than they are about whether you fill those roles with finesse or brute strength, which I consider to have all the importance of a costume option.
Anyway, if you don't like the idea of brute strength Scrappers and finesse Tanks, don't play them. But is it really going to ruin your game if someone else plays them? Is the fact that they exist going to break your immersion or something? |
Never said it would ruin my game. Just said it doesn't seem very much like a scrapper to me.
But then, making a toon that looks like it came from WoW never seemed superhero to me either...and I see plenty of those in CoH, so it's not like I can stop it :P
But I can go into other reasons not to put Super Strength over to Scrappers...
Martial Arts, give it all the Super Strength Animations, so people can look like they're giving a Knockout Blow, or a Footstomp.
Put Hurl into an Epic (lets go with Body Mastery)...and people would still complain that Scrappers don't have Super Strength.
It's not about theme :P It's about numbers. Let's not kid ourselves.
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We are not going to agree on spiderman, and that's fine. And I could even accept the idea that you could use MA to simulate super strength for that specific character, and characters like him. But again, there are many, many toons in comic books that have super strength that is nothing like MA, who do not have the survivability of a tank, nor are they 'tankish'. In coh, i'm not able to make a character with super strength unless I want him to be 'hulkish'? That's lame.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Comic book super strength and the varying degrees in which it exists is nowhere near the same as the single degree of super strength that exists in CoX. The only available setting that we've got for super strength (insofar as you can simply say "super strength") is Hulk Smash type super strength. Sure, Peter Parker has the proportionate strength of a spider, but that doesn't mean he's using it in even remotely the same way as the Hulk does (much less that he even has strength of a remotely similar magnitude).
As to what Spider Man would actually be in the context of this game, you first have to realize that his combat style matches MA on a visual level much more than it does Super Strength. He does mostly kicks and super-agile aerial attacks. Super Strength is pretty much just Hulk Smash melee. You'd never see Peter Parker doing a baseball style wind up punch or try to attack his target with a super powered hand clap or foot stomp. He's smaller, more mobile, and much more focused on using what super strength he has in a focused manner, rather than simply letting loose with it. He doesn't need training to use it in that manner, either, since his spider sense does all the work for him. |
And the argument that scrappers are finesse and tanks are brutish simply doesn't hold water. Again, tanks have plenty of finesse. You can't just exclude dual blades just because it pokes a hole in your theory. But even if you do, how do you explain dark melee? Fire and Ice melee aren't so 'brutal', and scrappers share fire melee as well. The bottom line is all the melee at's have a mix of brutal and finesse powers and attacks right now, so to claim either is relegated to one at simply doesn't mesh with reality.
Now let me say I would be ok with keeping some powersets specific to certain at's. But not super strength. Not the most popular super power in comic books. All melee at's should have access to that set. It's THE melee super power in comic books.
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The only "finesse" they've given was a single set that required a great deal of work that the devs gave to every melee AT at the same time pretty much only because they wanted to get the most out of that single set. The devs have still separated tankers and scrappers based on the raw power v. graceful application level for everything except for that single exception. For power proliferation, they have yet to proliferate a set that didn't match the thematic aesthetics of that AT. Brutes got Claws (because, while they require a bit more finesse, are pretty friggin' vicious), but you didn't see them going to Tankers as well. Sure, you can claim precedent, but it's not really appropriate especially when you realize just how absurd it looks to have a character in Granite Armor spinning and dancing around. I am willing to bet you almost beyond anything that the reason that Tankers and Brutes got Dual Blades wasn't that the devs wanted to give those ATs a bit more finesse, as you seem to be implying, but rather that the devs wanted Dual Blades to get as much exposure as humanly possible to provide optimum returns for the costs incurred in generating it. No matter how you try to argue it, Scrappers already have a decent bit of smash already in the form of Broadsword. I doubt we're going to get much more than that because BS is smash meets finesse. War Mace, Battle Axe, Stone Melee, and Super Strength are all pretty just outright smash with no finesse whatsoever. If you're asking for set parity between Brutes and Scrappers, we're much more likely to get the Energy sets before we get anything else. If those are brought over, Scrappers will have just as many as Brutes do and it won't involve giving Scrappers powers that are outside of the existing aesthetic theme of the Scrapper sets, especially since you can already get some very Scrapper style super strength animations via MA. |
Maybe that's the way you would like it to be, and that's fine, but that is not the way it is. And I for one am glad, because more options is good for the game. You think a SA/DB tank looks 'ridiculous'. Again, that's fine, and you have the option not to play one. But I have a pal that liked the combo and played it to 50, and it was good for the game and the player that she had the option to do that. The only thing it hurt was your sense of aesthetics.
I know for a fact I'm not the only one who would love to make a SS scrapper. The idea that super strength, the ultimate super hero melee power, doesn't fit in with an at that specializes in melee combat just doesn't make sense to me. It would be good for the game to have that option, and again, the only thing it would 'hurt' is those who didn't like the combo, and they could simply choose not to play it. People would still play brutes (who on average outdamage AND outsurvive scrappers, yet I still prefer scrappers) and people would still play tanks, because they play pretty differently from scrappers and brutes anyway. There really is no good reason, outside of personal preference, not to port ss to scrappers. Except for the fact it would take time and work to do it, and judging by the last few updates, and the fact they are working on GR, I don't think you need to worry about scrappers getting SS anytime soon, lol.
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Then you have the option of not making a hero look like thor or hercules. But a good game give players the option of making a toon like thor or hercules if that's the type of character they want to make. If you don't want to make a SS scrapper, fine, don't do it, but why try to block those of us who do want to make one from doing so? So far the only reason I've seen given is because the ultimate melee super power somehow doesn't fit with the at who specializes in melee combat...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Never said it would ruin my game. Just said it doesn't seem very much like a scrapper to me.
But then, making a toon that looks like it came from WoW never seemed superhero to me either...and I see plenty of those in CoH, so it's not like I can stop it :P |
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But I can go into other reasons not to put Super Strength over to Scrappers... Martial Arts, give it all the Super Strength Animations, so people can look like they're giving a Knockout Blow, or a Footstomp. Put Hurl into an Epic (lets go with Body Mastery)...and people would still complain that Scrappers don't have Super Strength. It's not about theme :P It's about numbers. Let's not kid ourselves. |
Ah, 'it's about numbers'. Is this the real reason you don't want scrappers to have SS? If that's the case, we do have a problem. Because if SS is too good for scrappers, then why is it not too good for brutes and tanks? And if numbers aren't, or shouldn't be important, why didn't they just add dark melee animations to ice melee when they ported that over to tankers?
Of course numbers matter, that's why nobody plays energy melee anymore and nobody cares if it's ported over to scrappers. Because by changing just a few of the set's 'numbers', the devs made the set a sluggish, boring mess. But if you're implying SS's numbers are the only reason people want it ported, it doesn't seem to mesh with the stats I've seen. There are existing scrapper primaries that outdamage ss in both single target and aoe damage.
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Damn right it is. You can bet I'd be rolling a SS/SD the day it went live if the set was ported as is, even without crits.| It's not about theme :P It's about numbers. Let's not kid ourselves. |
And as I'd obliterate everything in my path with a scrapper Footstomp at +480% damage, the last thing mobs would hear would be me laughing like a madman thinking about people who said it'd be perfectly balanced.
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| Because if SS is too good for scrappers, then why is it not too good for brutes and tanks? |
Rage gives +80% for Brutes and Tankers, it'd give +100% for Scrappers. Brutes operating at ~350% damage (using 75-80% Fury) get to 430% with Rage, a ~23% increase. Tankers operating at ~195% damage get to 275% with Rage, a ~41% increase. Scrappers operating at ~195% damage get to 295% with Rage, a ~51% increase.
Now if you ask me SS is already too good for brutes, I'm just attacking the whole "if a powerset is too good for this AT, it's too good period" logic. This reasoning just doesn't work with AT mods as they are in this game. It's so damn good you see 1 SS brute for 1 any other brute primary really, and you can bet you'd see the same situation or even worse on scrappers with a direct port. Spreadsheet calculations are well and good but ultimately flawed when they don't take into account the ease of use of a 15' radius high damage and knockdown PBAoE on a short timer, along with permanent +40~64% tohit and an extreme damage hitter that also KU and holds. Sure, the rest of the set is meh, sure, the DPS isn't stellar, but ease of use trumps anything and SS have it in spades.
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That's not even mentioning the fact that Scrappers start with a 50% higher base damage mod than Brutes. Scrappers would be basically double dipping for benefits.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Rage gives +80% for Brutes and Tankers, it'd give +100% for Scrappers. Brutes operating at ~350% damage (using 75-80% Fury) get to 430% with Rage, a ~23% increase. Tankers operating at ~195% damage get to 275% with Rage, a ~41% increase. Scrappers operating at ~195% damage get to 295% with Rage, a ~51% increase.
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Also, Castle toned down Greater Fire Sword when it was ported to Scrappers (he forgot to adjust the rech/end costs, though) , so that's probably the upper threshold for damage in a single hit he wants to give Scrappers.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Then you have the option of not making a hero look like thor or hercules. But a good game give players the option of making a toon like thor or hercules if that's the type of character they want to make. If you don't want to make a SS scrapper, fine, don't do it, but why try to block those of us who do want to make one from doing so? So far the only reason I've seen given is because the ultimate melee super power somehow doesn't fit with the at who specializes in melee combat...
These are not reasons not to give ss to scrappers, these are ways to avoid giving ss to scrappers. Ah, 'it's about numbers'. Is this the real reason you don't want scrappers to have SS? If that's the case, we do have a problem. Because if SS is too good for scrappers, then why is it not too good for brutes and tanks? And if numbers aren't, or shouldn't be important, why didn't they just add dark melee animations to ice melee when they ported that over to tankers? Of course numbers matter, that's why nobody plays energy melee anymore and nobody cares if it's ported over to scrappers. Because by changing just a few of the set's 'numbers', the devs made the set a sluggish, boring mess. But if you're implying SS's numbers are the only reason people want it ported, it doesn't seem to mesh with the stats I've seen. There are existing scrapper primaries that outdamage ss in both single target and aoe damage. |
You need to reread what I said.
I said "It's not about theme :P It's about numbers. Let's not kid ourselves"
Which is true. They could put the feel of Super Strength into Martial Arts very easily, and people would still complain that they don't have a Super Strength set (as it currently is...and with Rage).
And not once did I say, not make a super strength scrapper. I said Scrapper Super Strength would be more on par with Spider-Man, then Hulk.
Spider-Man has Super Strength, he just doesn't have it to the degree of Hulk/Superman who can rip a chunk of concrete out of the ground, or clap his hands together and cause a shockwave.
And like you said...numbers matter. My comment was directed at those who say they want it for concept reasons.
Sure they do...but most of them would ditch the set if the numbers were low. You're example of Energy Melee proves that. Very few people play the set, except for the few for concept, anymore.
And to think it's really just 1 number that hurts EM. ANd that's ET's new animation. It slowed the set down.
And I didn't mention Thor and Hercules, I mentioned WoW. Go...look around...elves in midevil armor are everywhere (admittedly I play on virtue >.> But I've seen them on Victory, Freedom, Triumph and Infinity).
And knight elves, are not superheroes. Even more so when the bios even say "D&D Ranger/Sorceror/Wizard...ect" :P
But okay, you want a Super Strength with a high damage AT...you got it! They're called Brutes.
So, it's not like they don't exsist.
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Like I said. Not against it from a numbers perspective. It was to all those who want it for concept. Yeah...they want it for numbers...and they lie when they say otherwise.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Damn right it is. You can bet I'd be rolling a SS/SD the day it went live if the set was ported as is, even without crits.
And as I'd obliterate everything in my path with a scrapper Footstomp at +480% damage, the last thing mobs would hear would be me laughing like a madman thinking about people who said it'd be perfectly balanced. |
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I want it because it's very SMASH. I like smash. I use Rage, but frankly, I hate it. The crash drives me nuts, even if I know it improves my performance overall. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
they want it for numbers...and they lie when they say otherwise.
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Now yes, in my case, if a ported Super Strength WAS numerically superior, I'd probably play one for that reason too. But even if you brought it over as a numerically INFERIOR set, I'd probably give it a whirl just to see if it was worth it for the fun factor, particularly if they replaced Rage, since I hate that power.
Yes, I know I'm a numbersraping powergamer. I'm also currently playing a Martial Arts/Fire Armor. Not everything is about having the best numbers.
So, am I lying? Are you really accusing people of that? You HAVE noticed that people have a great variety of interests and motivations, right? That we're not all the same?
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Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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You really did it? Is it as painful as I think it would be?
| I'm also currently playing a Martial Arts/Fire Armor |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Ummm.... no.
| but ease of use trumps anything and SS have it in spades. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Quote of the day? |
Originally Posted by Werner
Yes, I know I'm a numbersraping powergamer.
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Werner, I much prefer to think of it as "numbersfondling" where the numbers clearly enjoy it.
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Actually, we have many versions of Super Strength in the game. Fifty levels of tanker super strength, fifty levels of brute super strength, and a lot of versions the critters have. Statesman has a level of Super Strength that the players really don't possess.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Comic book super strength and the varying degrees in which it exists is nowhere near the same as the single degree of super strength that exists in CoX. The only available setting that we've got for super strength (insofar as you can simply say "super strength") is Hulk Smash type super strength.
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There are two definitions of "Tanker" in the actual game. There is the conceptual one, which is vague, and there is the game mechanical one which is not, and which ultimately dictates the strength of powers. The unambiguous one that actually affects our gaming lives most of the time is that a CoX tanker is something that trades offense for defense. Scrappers, meanwhile, are things that have balanced offense and defense.
You can't compare Spiderman to the Hulk and ask which one is the tanker, because you're comparing things of such massively different scale of power that its a worthless comparison. Its no different than comparing a level one tanker to a level 50 scrapper and asking which is the better tanker. The real question in this case would be, if Spiderman was scaled up to be as tough as the Hulk, which would then be offensively stronger? My guess is that they would be equally offensively strong. And that means - in CoX terms - they are either both scrappers or both tankers in archetypal design.
In fact, given that the Hulk is much more often portrayed as the irresistible force rather than the immovable object, I think the Hulk's concept skews much more towards high offense than high defense, even though his defense is obviously formidable. Which means even though he is harder to kill than almost anything else, he's still a scrapper. Just like a level 50 scrapper with five billion worth of inventions that outperforms 95% of all the tankers in the game is also just a very strong scrapper.
In the actual genre, there is a separate opinion skew that scrappers are simply weaker overall than "tanker-ish" things, but that belief doesn't translate to CoX: CoX doesn't honor that belief because it doesn't define scrappers as a second-class powerlevel type.
Its actually very difficult to find comic book representations of CoX tankers as the game actually implements the strength of tankers. So much so that I really consider CoX tankers to be an invention of the game, and not an homage to a comic book genre element. Some of the conceptual connections to tankers that the devs try to honor are comic book staples, like the Super Strength concept itself. But not its actual in-game strength.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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