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Originally Posted by Werner
I want it because it's very SMASH. I like smash. I use Rage, but frankly, I hate it. The crash drives me nuts, even if I know it improves my performance overall.
Now yes, in my case, if a ported Super Strength WAS numerically superior, I'd probably play one for that reason too. But even if you brought it over as a numerically INFERIOR set, I'd probably give it a whirl just to see if it was worth it for the fun factor, particularly if they replaced Rage, since I hate that power. Yes, I know I'm a numbersraping powergamer. I'm also currently playing a Martial Arts/Fire Armor. Not everything is about having the best numbers. So, am I lying? Are you really accusing people of that? You HAVE noticed that people have a great variety of interests and motivations, right? That we're not all the same? |
Well my post was more in line with a previous post as well, which you either forgot (simple enough as my message was a reply to a reply of mine, or simply didn't read.
I had said earlier, that they could give all Super Strength animations to Martial Arts, so people can go the super strength concept route, and they'd still complain (this includes giving Scrapper access to the hurl power in one of the epics, I suggested Body).
According to BillZBubba's stickied thread, there's only a few point difference in DPS as well, between Scrapper SS (I'm assuming he put Rage to what Scrapper numbers says it would be, and not to what the devs might make it) and Scrapper MA.
Just give Martial Arts the following animations...
Thunder Kick = Sped up Jab
Storm Kick = Sped up Punch
Cobra Strike = Single Target Hand Clap stun
Focus Chi = Stay the same
Crane Kick = Could leave this the same (or possibly a new animation for a straight punch)
Warriors Challenge = Stays the same
Crippling Axe Kick = Slower Haymaker
Dragon's Tail = Sped up Foot stomp/Ground Punch
Eagle's Claw = Slightly slower Knockout Blow (though EC's alternate animation seems very super strengthy to me already).
If it's just about concept for Super Strength, that can easily be made possible with new animations for Martial Arts to choose from.
And now that I type this out, I kinda wish they would do this.
All it would lack is Hurl. Which like I said could be put into an Epic (<.< I'd gladly give up CP for Hurl myself...or they could just add a 6th power).And if they did this, all those saying they wanted SS for concept, would still say they want the Super Strength set for concept and really mean numbers.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fact, given that the Hulk is much more often portrayed as the irresistible force rather than the immovable object, I think the Hulk's concept skews much more towards high offense than high defense, even though his defense is obviously formidable. Which means even though he is harder to kill than almost anything else, he's still a scrapper.
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The Hulk is a Brute! He's the original Brute that went Rogue.
"The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets."
- The Incredible Hulk vol. 3, #109-#111 (Oct.-Dec. 2007)
Wikipedia entry for The Hulk
I do agree with you, that you can't compare Comic Book heroes to the ATs they may have inspired in game.
As you said, in comic book universes/multiverses there are huge scales of variance in powers among beings - with no artificial level based (ex: L10 vs. L50) discrepancy, and no excuses made.
A prime example of this is when Doomsday lays waste to The Justice League. Those were all experienced, and seasoned heroes - they simply were completely out of their league. If Superman himself had ever gone on a berserk rampage, they'd have been in a similar situation.
Comic book heroes are more often designed within this power scale, dictating what magnitude of feats they are capable of accomplishing (with plot often making generous exceptions both for and against them) both physically, mentally and in some circumstances spiritually (usually for magic based stories).
However I do agree in general with Umbral in reagrds to the concept that Scrappers lean more toward skill (as opposed to finesse), where Brutes lean more toward raw power.
That being said, the line is blurry in some instances - especially where primary sets are shared, and also because Brutes in general were designed with blurry lines with their hybrid in-game mechanics.
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The Hulk gets both offensively stronger and defensively stronger as he gets angrier. Brutes don't. That makes it a bit ambiguous if he's half a brute, or a special case of Snaptooth that can increase in rank under certain circumstances. But I wouldn't argue with someone who thought the Hulk was more Brute than Scrapper. The point is more that the Hulk doesn't seem to be more focused on defense than offense. Something like the Blob is more of a CoH Tanker, but such examples seem very rare to me.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The Hulk is a Brute! He's the original Brute that went Rogue.
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It would be interesting if critters had taunt and Brutes got stronger when taunted.
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As I've said, 'numbers' are part of the game (to claim it's the only reason for everyone is nonsense), but more importantly, it's how the set plays. I've played MA to 50, and I didn't enjoy the set. Maybe I'd like it more with the new animations, but overall it just felt clunky and kinda thrown together to me. Now maybe you'll jump in with, 'well you just want ss because of the numbers'. If that were the case, according to bills work-up, I'd still be better of with MA, since MA does better dps with it's best set-up. If people only wanted sets due to 'numbers' I wonder why tanks aren't pining for MA, lol. Hell, scrpper em would be higher by the 'numbers', but I'll pass on that crippled, sloth-like set too.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well my post was more in line with a previous post as well, which you either forgot (simple enough as my message was a reply to a reply of mine, or simply didn't read.
I had said earlier, that they could give all Super Strength animations to Martial Arts, so people can go the super strength concept route, and they'd still complain (this includes giving Scrapper access to the hurl power in one of the epics, I suggested Body). According to BillZBubba's stickied thread, there's only a few point difference in DPS as well, between Scrapper SS (I'm assuming he put Rage to what Scrapper numbers says it would be, and not to what the devs might make it) and Scrapper MA. Just give Martial Arts the following animations... Thunder Kick = Sped up Jab Storm Kick = Sped up Punch Cobra Strike = Single Target Hand Clap stun Focus Chi = Stay the same Crane Kick = Could leave this the same (or possibly a new animation for a straight punch) Warriors Challenge = Stays the same Crippling Axe Kick = Slower Haymaker Dragon's Tail = Sped up Foot stomp/Ground Punch Eagle's Claw = Slightly slower Knockout Blow (though EC's alternate animation seems very super strengthy to me already). If it's just about concept for Super Strength, that can easily be made possible with new animations for Martial Arts to choose from. And now that I type this out, I kinda wish they would do this. All it would lack is Hurl. Which like I said could be put into an Epic (<.< I'd gladly give up CP for Hurl myself...or they could just add a 6th power).And if they did this, all those saying they wanted SS for concept, would still say they want the Super Strength set for concept and really mean numbers. |
And again, in discussing the idea that SS would be overpowered on scrappers, I strongly disagree. Looking again at bills work, we see that scrap ss would indeed outdamage brute ss. And yes, that is due different at modifiers. But guess what - this is the one set that would seem to be working properly, because scrappers SHOULD be outdamaging brutes, since brutes have at modifiers that give them inherent survivability advantages from lvl 1-50 regardless of circumstances, yet most powersets allow brutes to obtain damage and survivability advantage in many situations.
Regardless of the brute scrapper debate (I don't feel the balance between the two at's is so ridiculously skewed as to require any changes, but to claim there is parity is nonsense and clearly brutes have clear advantages in more situations than scrappers do), despite ss being supposedly 'overpowered' on scrappers, it did not finish first in the dps showdown (9 set ups finished higher...). This reminds me of the debate that raged when they lowered the animation times on katana - people swore up and down that it would make katana ridiculously overpowered. I think if SS gets ported, as it should, we will see similar results.
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I would argue that Hulk is indeed a brute because the character is clearly offensive and becomes more powerul the more enraged he gets, which is covered with fury (granted it doesnt fit perfectly, but it fits better than the tank at that is primarily about only absorbing damage, at least moreso than dishing it out. But as far as you 'defensively stronger' argument, from what I've seen of the hulk, increased rage/fury mostly made him stronger and more destructive, once he became the 'hulk' he was pretty much already indestructable - but again, I think its safe to say hulk was far more offensive than what a tanker would be.). Blob is an excellent example of a tanker in my opinion, as he is primarily a character that absorbs punishment moreso than dealing it out.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The Hulk gets both offensively stronger and defensively stronger as he gets angrier. Brutes don't. That makes it a bit ambiguous if he's half a brute, or a special case of Snaptooth that can increase in rank under certain circumstances. But I wouldn't argue with someone who thought the Hulk was more Brute than Scrapper. The point is more that the Hulk doesn't seem to be more focused on defense than offense. Something like the Blob is more of a CoH Tanker, but such examples seem very rare to me.
It would be interesting if critters had taunt and Brutes got stronger when taunted. |
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BillZ's comparisons were solely relevant to single-target damage.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
I've played MA to 50, and I didn't enjoy the set. Maybe I'd like it more with the new animations, but overall it just felt clunky and kinda thrown together to me. Now maybe you'll jump in with, 'well you just want ss because of the numbers'. If that were the case, according to bills work-up, I'd still be better of with MA, since MA does better dps with it's best set-up. If people only wanted sets due to 'numbers' I wonder why tanks aren't pining for MA, lol.
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Super-strength VASTLY outperforms Martial Arts in AoE damage ouptut, as well as damage mitigation through knockdown.
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And he couldn't do the same thing with SS's footstomp because why?
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
That's not even mentioning the fact that Scrappers start with a 50% higher base damage mod than Brutes. Scrappers would be basically double dipping for benefits.
Also, Castle toned down Greater Fire Sword when it was ported to Scrappers (he forgot to adjust the rech/end costs, though) , so that's probably the upper threshold for damage in a single hit he wants to give Scrappers. |
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not i,then again i finally broke down and made a sd/ss tanker for the sole purpose of skranking with him.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Like I said. Not against it from a numbers perspective. It was to all those who want it for concept. Yeah...they want it for numbers...and they lie when they say otherwise.
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i already have a level 50 tank,did not really want another.i generally prefer playing scrappers,but sadly the option was not available.fortunately between AAO and rage he feels close enough to pass muster.
thought of making a brute,but i do not much care for the COV setting,and brutes annoy me in the early levels.
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True. So martial arts would be superior in single target while SS would be superior in aoe, right? But honestly, MA is a bad set to compare with, because lets face it, MA is not a very popular set. I don't think I've seen a single tanker or brute asking for it, have you?|
Originally Posted by Chaos_String
BillZ's comparisons were solely relevant to single-target damage.
Super-strength VASTLY outperforms Martial Arts in AoE damage ouptut, as well as damage mitigation through knockdown. |
Compare ss to fire melee, a set that all 3 melee at's have, where fire melee will 'vastly' (according to your scaling from the last example) outperform ss in both single target and aoe while doing it in a vastly less resisted damage type, while obviously ss will have the advantage of kd and damage mitigation. To the poster who wants to wipe out large groups in 2 shots, give fm/sd a try, and you get fsc at lvl 18 rather than 32.
But again it comes down to one power really, footstomp. But what is always conveniently left out is the fact footstomp is the set's only aoe power and it's the last power of the set. It should be damn good and it should be set defining, because quite frankly, ss is pretty damn lame compared to other sets before you get it.
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This is slightly off topic, but as one of the more vocal proponents of Street Fighting, I think the need is gone. MA has the option of punching now, which, in my opinion, was the ideal solution all along. Street Fighting was a compromise.
| A while ago, I suggested a low-key version of super strength be ported over (similar theme different execution) and rename this ported version to the coveted Street Fighting set people have wanted for so long. |
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Originally Posted by Nemo_Utopian
not i,then again i finally broke down and made a sd/ss tanker for the sole purpose of skranking with him.
i already have a level 50 tank,did not really want another.i generally prefer playing scrappers,but sadly the option was not available.fortunately between AAO and rage he feels close enough to pass muster. thought of making a brute,but i do not much care for the COV setting,and brutes annoy me in the early levels. |
When I first made this game (whoops al gore moment - replace made with bought... lol), the first toon i wanted to make was a ss/reg scrapper and was extremely disappointed when I found out that was impossible. I've been trying various combos since, and the closest I've gotten is with a ss/wp brute. It's just a shame that the hero at that is supposed to be the melee specialist can't use comic books' most iconic melee power. And yes, numbers and how it plays factor in, because getting some gimped version while the other 2 melee at's get the corvette version would be a slap in the face, and quite frankly, wouldn't make any sense.
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And that is why, just as with claws on brutes, I see zero issues with a straight port of SS to scrappers.| It should be damn good and it should be set defining, because quite frankly, ss is pretty damn lame compared to other sets before you get it. |
Let's not forget all those whining that a straight port of claws would be overpowered on brutes. Not only did brutes get claws... they got a BUFFED version of it.
Those stating SS would be OP on scrappers haven't done the math.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Agreed. Now MA needs to be ported to brutes.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
This is slightly off topic, but as one of the more vocal proponents of Street Fighting, I think the need is gone. MA has the option of punching now, which, in my opinion, was the ideal solution all along. Street Fighting was a compromise.
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Be well, people of CoH.
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Hell yes.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Agreed. Now MA needs to be ported to brutes.
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Nailed it. And I'm sure brute claws is wonderful, but I don't see only clawed brutes running around, and it didn't create some sort of i-blackhole to devour the game, lol. Not to mention, wouldn't brute claws outdamage scrapper ss in single target and aoe with shockwave and spin, while having at least similar mitigation with shockwave?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And that is why, just as with claws on brutes, I see zero issues with a straight port of SS to scrappers.
Let's not forget all those whining that a straight port of claws would be overpowered on brutes. Not only did brutes get claws... they got a BUFFED version of it. Those stating SS would be OP on scrappers haven't done the math. |
The most important part was porting claws to brutes made a lot of players happy, like yourself, and the people who don't like it, don't have to play it. And while it's very powerful 'numbers-wise', it certainly doesn't break the game...
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Trade ya for SS.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Agreed. Now MA needs to be ported to brutes.
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I'm not sure why anyone would think Claws would be too powerful on Brutes. Of course, Claws is technically overpowered for everyone but just in a way that Castle doesn't feel like addressing at the moment.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And that is why, just as with claws on brutes, I see zero issues with a straight port of SS to scrappers.
Let's not forget all those whining that a straight port of claws would be overpowered on brutes. Not only did brutes get claws... they got a BUFFED version of it. Those stating SS would be OP on scrappers haven't done the math. |
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Just a guess, but perhaps they believed that fast-animating attacks with built-in endurance reduction would be too good at generating fury.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm not sure why anyone would think Claws would be too powerful on Brutes.
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If that was the objection, then they were half right: claws is outstanding at generating fury, but it turns out it isn't game-breaking.
Back to SS, though: I don't think the set would necessarily be OP for scrappers, although Castle might need to look at giving both KO Blow and Foot Stomp some sort of GFS treatment. (At which point the people who just want the set for numerical reasons might not want it anymore.)
My position is simply that a set like (for instance) Ice Melee seems a whole lot scrappier to me than the screen-shaking Super-Strength, so I'd expect to see it proliferated first.
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Well, that picture isn't actually that bad - it works out to about 3% more damage for Scrapper SS than Brute SS on the base numbers. The trouble comes when you figure in crits and double stacked Rage.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Here we go again : different AT mods and inherents. Same reason an ElM/SD scrapper is incredibly superior to an ElM/SD brute, same reason ELA brutes are much better than ELA scrappers.
Rage gives +80% for Brutes and Tankers, it'd give +100% for Scrappers. Brutes operating at ~350% damage (using 75-80% Fury) get to 430% with Rage, a ~23% increase. Tankers operating at ~195% damage get to 275% with Rage, a ~41% increase. Scrappers operating at ~195% damage get to 295% with Rage, a ~51% increase. |
That said, I don't see any problem that couldn't be solved with a simple tone-down of Scrapper Rage to not be 100% damage. 80% damage buff from Scrapper Rage might actually be too weak unless double stacked - the set is awfully lame without Rage, after all.
At any rate, it's not an obviously unsolvable problem, and to me, the set doesn't seem particularly non-Scrapperish. Then again, I've never really had much respect for barring sets from archetypes for thematic reasons. Theme is what you make of it.
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*sigh* I think the point of my comment was missed.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
As I've said, 'numbers' are part of the game (to claim it's the only reason for everyone is nonsense), but more importantly, it's how the set plays. I've played MA to 50, and I didn't enjoy the set. Maybe I'd like it more with the new animations, but overall it just felt clunky and kinda thrown together to me. Now maybe you'll jump in with, 'well you just want ss because of the numbers'. If that were the case, according to bills work-up, I'd still be better of with MA, since MA does better dps with it's best set-up. If people only wanted sets due to 'numbers' I wonder why tanks aren't pining for MA, lol. Hell, scrpper em would be higher by the 'numbers', but I'll pass on that crippled, sloth-like set too.
And again, in discussing the idea that SS would be overpowered on scrappers, I strongly disagree. Looking again at bills work, we see that scrap ss would indeed outdamage brute ss. And yes, that is due different at modifiers. But guess what - this is the one set that would seem to be working properly, because scrappers SHOULD be outdamaging brutes, since brutes have at modifiers that give them inherent survivability advantages from lvl 1-50 regardless of circumstances, yet most powersets allow brutes to obtain damage and survivability advantage in many situations. Regardless of the brute scrapper debate (I don't feel the balance between the two at's is so ridiculously skewed as to require any changes, but to claim there is parity is nonsense and clearly brutes have clear advantages in more situations than scrappers do), despite ss being supposedly 'overpowered' on scrappers, it did not finish first in the dps showdown (9 set ups finished higher...). This reminds me of the debate that raged when they lowered the animation times on katana - people swore up and down that it would make katana ridiculously overpowered. I think if SS gets ported, as it should, we will see similar results. |
I understand that people like to play the set with the best numbers.
People just kept saying, they wanted it for concept. I was merely saying, it wasn't purely for concept.
If they made all the animation options of Super Strength available to Martial Arts, and put Hurl in Body Mastery (thusly making the concept possible)...people would still say they want Super Strength (they just couldn't keep saying "for concept" then).
Next, going by Billz work-up...Scrapper Super Strength would not only give better ST DPS (by a few points), but have better AOE.
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For the record, I never said SS would be overpowered on Scrappers. *just saying*
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And that is why, just as with claws on brutes, I see zero issues with a straight port of SS to scrappers.
Let's not forget all those whining that a straight port of claws would be overpowered on brutes. Not only did brutes get claws... they got a BUFFED version of it. Those stating SS would be OP on scrappers haven't done the math. |
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The way Super Strength plays out in game, just never seemed like a scrapper style of super strength to me.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Well, that picture isn't actually that bad - it works out to about 3% more damage for Scrapper SS than Brute SS on the base numbers. The trouble comes when you figure in crits and double stacked Rage.
That said, I don't see any problem that couldn't be solved with a simple tone-down of Scrapper Rage to not be 100% damage. 80% damage buff from Scrapper Rage might actually be too weak unless double stacked - the set is awfully lame without Rage, after all. At any rate, it's not an obviously unsolvable problem, and to me, the set doesn't seem particularly non-Scrapperish. Then again, I've never really had much respect for barring sets from archetypes for thematic reasons. Theme is what you make of it. |
Handclap, Hurl and Footstomp specifically. Spiderman (who to me is the comic book version of a scrapper with super strength)...doesn't clap his hands together to knock people down. He doesn't stomp his foot to cause earthquakes. Ect...ect...
Which is what the current Super Strength set is.
Now...if they changed it around a bit on animations and ported...I could possibly see it better.
Instead of ripping a chunk of concrete out of the ground, maybe a VW bug just appears and they toss it. See. It's not the weight of the concrete (it's just the animation).
*shrug* Just doesn't seem Scrapper like to me.
*note* Never said I couldn't be wrong either. :P I've admitted already, the Energy Shields and Talasorian Shield have made me wrong about wanting a shield set.
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Sorry, I'm kind of skimming, and that just jumped out, probably because the whole "people who assert X are simply lying" is a button of mine. Can we pretend I didn't fly off the handle like a forum newb? |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well my post was more in line with a previous post as well, which you either forgot (simple enough as my message was a reply to a reply of mine, or simply didn't read.
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| I had said earlier, that they could give all Super Strength animations to Martial Arts, so people can go the super strength concept route, and they'd still complain (this includes giving Scrapper access to the hurl power in one of the epics, I suggested Body). |
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I've had very little time to play. I'm only level 5 or 6 or something. Everything's great at that level. But hey, I'm happy with look and concept, which is half of the battle.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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There are two definitions of "Tanker" in the actual game. There is the conceptual one, which is vague, and there is the game mechanical one which is not, and which ultimately dictates the strength of powers. The unambiguous one that actually affects our gaming lives most of the time is that a CoX tanker is something that trades offense for defense. Scrappers, meanwhile, are things that have balanced offense and defense.
You can't compare Spiderman to the Hulk and ask which one is the tanker, because you're comparing things of such massively different scale of power that its a worthless comparison. Its no different than comparing a level one tanker to a level 50 scrapper and asking which is the better tanker. The real question in this case would be, if Spiderman was scaled up to be as tough as the Hulk, which would then be offensively stronger? My guess is that they would be equally offensively strong. And that means - in CoX terms - they are either both scrappers or both tankers in archetypal design.
In fact, given that the Hulk is much more often portrayed as the irresistible force rather than the immovable object, I think the Hulk's concept skews much more towards high offense than high defense, even though his defense is obviously formidable. Which means even though he is harder to kill than almost anything else, he's still a scrapper. Just like a level 50 scrapper with five billion worth of inventions that outperforms 95% of all the tankers in the game is also just a very strong scrapper.
In the actual genre, there is a separate opinion skew that scrappers are simply weaker overall than "tanker-ish" things, but that belief doesn't translate to CoX: CoX doesn't honor that belief because it doesn't define scrappers as a second-class powerlevel type.
Its actually very difficult to find comic book representations of CoX tankers as the game actually implements the strength of tankers. So much so that I really consider CoX tankers to be an invention of the game, and not an homage to a comic book genre element. Some of the conceptual connections to tankers that the devs try to honor are comic book staples, like the Super Strength concept itself. But not its actual in-game strength.
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