How to Fix AE Rewards, in One Step
If the devs were truly against farming they would simply make the content non repeatable by making each mission timed, and not letting us reset the missions once started.
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The dev statement relevant to this topic is: the devs are generally against players performing repetitive actions focused on the primary purpose of, and with the net result being, optimizing the rate of earning rewards significantly above and outside the range of most players. Such activity may be curtailed at any time at the devs' sole discretion. If your version of "farming" doesn't match this definition, you're safe. If it does, you're not.
On the general subject of fixing the AE rewards, lets just say there is no simple solution that will accomplish that, unfortunately. There are solutions that I think would work (all significantly more complex than any suggestion I've read so far), but none that could be deployed immediately.
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But seriously? AE can never be equivalent. Do you know why? Because even before the huge exp nerf, it wasn't equivalent; it was SUPERIOR. It gave you rewards that had little to no risk attached to them. If the devs had to make the choice again, I'd hope they do it all again. |
Again i understand the exploits that could come with using bonuses on mission completition. However why nerf patrol xp in the missions? Why have harder custom mobs be worth so much less then mobs the game spawns which are way easier to fight? I agree that mobs with no really combat ability shouldnt gain xp, however i can make mobs at standard strenght using fire/regen or something like that, which between the two sets makes superior mobs to what the game would normally spawn, and get 25 percent less xp for them. That IMO is not fair and then further limits the desires of people to use the system and experience other players creativity.
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Judging by your forum date, you werent even playing the game during Jack's biggest spouts of double speak on issues like ED, GDN, or HamiOs, so you can think its snide all you want, but the old lead designer of this game had a knack for creating situations that he only later made worse by his own double speak in trying to defend.
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But thank you for so kindly showing me that you're not going to put effort into things; arguing bia 'I'm a veteran and you're not' always works out well, doesn't it?
And why would you assume the changes they made only effected farmers? I see next to no one in the AE buildings anymore, be them farmers or standard players. I think that reflects that even a normal playing person doesnt consider the changes to mobs and xp in the AE to be worth their time anylonger.
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When did i ever say that i didnt play for fun. But narrow minded people all seem to think that fun, rewards, xp, etc are all mutally exclusive. Or that if the find running the same TF over and over fun, that everyone should, and if you dont then your only intrested in rewards or farming etc.
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"I don't have fun with AE because it doesn't offer enough exp."
You can have your own definition of 'fun', just as someone can who runs the Behemoth farm 478 times and smiles with glee, but in the heart of things, you're STILL earning exp, you're STILL engaging in ALL of the Architect's features, and nothing but personal gain was reduced.
See i can have fun playing a level 50, i can have fun playing a level 30. But obviously i want to see progression in the character that i play, if its availible to him. Its less so availible to a level 50 because of the cap, but why if i want to level my level 30 character, would i choose a system that not only didnt offer me patrol xp, bonuses, and inluence at the same level as a standard mission, but then also fight tougher enemies for less xp?
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Oh, and guess what? There's content OUTSIDE of AE, and with the new Super-Sidekicking and Exemplars receiving exp? Oh, man, you can essentially level 1-50 on Hellions.
I can imagine people finding fun in different ways, unfortunately you dontseem to be able to. Apparently you feel that if your playing for the purposes to level a character your not playing for fun. Well personally i dontfeel that way.
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At its heart the purpose of the AE was to allow players to make content. And other players to play that content. Now however it would seem the vast majority of players dont play the content. So ask yourself why? Because the rewards arenot on par with standard mission content is really the onlyreason i could think of.
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I mean seriously if all things were equal why would i want to do a standard story arc for the 20th time rather then playing something new. And just as when the AE was in beta we told the devs about how all the ways people were farming and exploiting the system and the devs launched anyway, we also told them that with the proposed changes to the custom critters that hte AE would turn into a ghost town, and it has done so again.
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I have been playing the game for over 5 years, i have played every AT availible, if i didnt find the game fun i wouldnt still beplaying it. That doesnt mean im going to not offer my opinion and crawl up the devs brown-holes when i dont feel they are making good decisions just because they are the devs. And i certianly dont need to hear from some 2 year vet about how i am a farmer or whatever your glitch was because i find fun in different ways then he does. Seriously ohhh you did the ITF 7 times, big whoop, i prob have also. But since it was for fun and not for reward im sure you decided to waste those merits on only buying trap of the hunter IOs right?
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But if you'd like to know? If you'd REALLY like to know why there's only 3 years of vet rewards?
It involves a lot of situations: my father passing away, my mother having to undergo extensive surgery, my friend needing help to deal with her unplanned pregnancy, and a whole list of different things that made me look at my subscription and say 'I haven't been playing for awhile, and I'm gonna be busy for awhile' so I cancel it for a period of time.
Not every minute of my playing time can be spent on a team running TF or other such social things. And when i am playing and friends and such are not availible, then yes my attentions turn to more things like leveling, xp, influence etc. So what, i also find that fun. You have a good time sticking to idea of fun and why not try to not tell other people what they should consider fun or not.
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![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
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So if it was superior then why did it have to be nerfed to be inferior rather the closer to on par. See i can get around the lessened drops, since basicly you can earn tickets that come closer to getting real desirable set peices, this helps overcome the money issue also. But i dont see why xp should have to be inferior.
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You go on, and on, and on about how all of these things are extremely powerful, but you're clearly talking out of your ***. They're more powerful if you're looking for a challenging arc, but more often than not, they're no stronger than regular mobs, and more often than not, they're weaker.
![](http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu153/Poyzinblud/coffee_beans.jpg)
If you don't like that, and If you don't think the rewards are right, YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT AE IS FOR OR WHY IT WAS PUT IN THE GAME.
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Apart from that, I am happy with the rewards being handed out in AE currently.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
One on one, the easiest custom character mobs with any two standard power sets are harder than many, probably most, dev-created mobs. I do think that they should give full XP.
Apart from that, I am happy with the rewards being handed out in AE currently. |
When making toons at higher levels, I found that no combination of enemies I could make were easier on my Invuln toon than just fighting Council Empire. And all that's pretty much on standard, where the customs get -25% exp. Putting them on hard would mean you'd suddenly start seeing Aim, Build Up, and other similar powers. Even if you stick to strictly weak sets, the units get 2-4x as many attacks as regular units do, and tend to do more damage with them. And have much more access to ToHit buffs.
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Because you have the option to make enemies with 1-2 powers thanks to the new 'Custom' option under Critter Powersets.
You go on, and on, and on about how all of these things are extremely powerful, but you're clearly talking out of your ***. They're more powerful if you're looking for a challenging arc, but more often than not, they're no stronger than regular mobs, and more often than not, they're weaker. |
Would you like me to take a picture of my original game box back when Defenders had Fold Space, Katana WAS Broadsword, and the like?
But thank you for so kindly showing me that you're not going to put effort into things; arguing bia 'I'm a veteran and you're not' always works out well, doesn't it? |
I see plenty of people; farmer and regular players alike. And if I don't see many? I'm inclined to either think they're IN doing missions, or that people are taking a break. And if nothing else, I'll form my own team and populate it myself. |
Because apparently, you link your fun to rewards in terms of exp. Your sole argument stands on: "I don't have fun with AE because it doesn't offer enough exp." You can have your own definition of 'fun', just as someone can who runs the Behemoth farm 478 times and smiles with glee, but in the heart of things, you're STILL earning exp, you're STILL engaging in ALL of the Architect's features, and nothing but personal gain was reduced. |
Would that have been so hard to say, it infact they were still working on it?
Because you can also fight weaker enemies for that amount of exp. |
Oh, and guess what? There's content OUTSIDE of AE, and with the new Super-Sidekicking and Exemplars receiving exp? Oh, man, you can essentially level 1-50 on Hellions. |
Now you're just projecting yourself onto me. A big no-no. You're STILL progressing; at a slower rate, but if that slower progression automatically kills all of the 'fun' you were having, then I sincerely doubt the validity to begin with. |
Can you show me numbers on these 'vast majority'? Because from the AE terminals, a LOT of arcs have a LOT of ratings as it is. There are people exploring further new content, some people working on their badging, some people are STILL using AE, and so forth. I fail to see any 'vast majority', aside from the ones that now crank spawns up to +8 and go nuts elsewhere. |
And do you know WHY it was launched so early? Because they set a deadline, but had to make such drastic changes (Critter Creator) that it was pushed back into it's own entire issue. It was a correction in progress, and it was already discouraged. People were surprised when they actually had to face consequences for breaking the rules they knew existed! Oh no! |
I actually have no words for this. This paragraph isn't a response but a giant wall that might as well read 'TROLL BAIT' ad nauseum. |
But if you'd like to know? If you'd REALLY like to know why there's only 3 years of vet rewards? It involves a lot of situations: my father passing away, my mother having to undergo extensive surgery, my friend needing help to deal with her unplanned pregnancy, and a whole list of different things that made me look at my subscription and say 'I haven't been playing for awhile, and I'm gonna be busy for awhile' so I cancel it for a period of time. |
And you have a good idea screaming at the devs that they did a bad job on their game that you still continue to play and pay for. ![]() |
But the game is a role playing game, it does denote that your character will gain skills, strenght etc. If there are two paths to do that, playing through the AE andplaying standard dev content, and one path offers badges, higher xp, higher influence, faster leveling, more teaming opprotunities, purple drops etc. And the other might offer somewhat nicer choices for IO sets, but slower everything else, less people in the sytsem so fewer teammates availible, which path do you think your going to choose?
Or put it this way, your dad just died a few weeks ago, your working full time, your friend is pregnant but you want to burn off some of the little free time you have playing the game. You log in you can isntantly get on a team running radio missions, and get the 2-3 bars you need to hit 32 and get your controllerpets, or you can try and take 20 minutes of the hour you have to play to put together a AE team, and fight harder mobs for less xp and you fall short of level 32.
Which path would you choose. Cause frankly the game is the same. There might be different stories but ultimately a blinky mission or kill all is the same in AE as it is in dev created land. So basicly the FUN of playing is the same on both sides. So then why pick the slower path?
Fixed. Devs never cared about regular farming. They did however care about people going from level 1 to 50 in a couple hours, with zero risk.
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Only it didn't work. Farmers turned out to be far more intelligent than the exploiters gave them credit for. In fact the farmers got offended that the exploiters assumed they were idiots and sided with the devs.
Because you have the option to make enemies with 1-2 powers thanks to the new 'Custom' option under Critter Powersets. You go on, and on, and on about how all of these things are extremely powerful, but you're clearly talking out of your ***. They're more powerful if you're looking for a challenging arc, but more often than not, they're no stronger than regular mobs, and more often than not, they're weaker. |
I remember trying to make low-level content for AE using custom critters. I had to stick to sets like DB and AR because they have the least damage and least secondary effects. I still ended up having minions that had three minor to moderate attacks in a level range where even liutenants would only have one attack. And this is with regen secondary so they effectively have "no secondary."
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Until new ones are added, there are no standard mobs that are new to me. I know what to do when I see a Sapper or an Immunes Surgeon. Customs can surprise you, at least. The maps aren't new, but the mobs can be.
The exploiters did the game a favor by pointing out that there were standard mobs that were so weak as to be pathetic. The weakest ones were seldom used in official content, like the Malaise minions. They're now more intersting to fight, as I learned when I mixed some of them with customs in a faction I made.
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
So of the people who are supporting MA as it is now, what changes specifically would you want to implement to get players to want to go there? By the way "because I wrote the best content ever" isn't really an answer, as I think the current situation shows that not many people, especially the general population of the game, really give a hoot about playing for the story content. I haven't had time to read the whole thread on my way out to work since I last posted... or before I posted, but all I'm really picking up is a lot of people shooting down any new ideas but failing to offer some concrete ideas of their own.
The one constant I see is a dislike of the custom mob XP.
I'd also like to point out that when MA was new and everyone was abusing the hell out of it, I had the most fun I'd had in years of playing this game. I'm not saying it was all around a good thing and we should go back to that, but it truly was amazing to again be immerssed in a game that actually felt like it was "massively multiplayer." Tons of players all crowded together, getting teams instantly, and rocking some bad guys. It was really fun gameplay and I really enjoyed playing with all of those people. I rarely encountered the typical dumb farmer type team. It was a lot of fun, chatting, and joking around.
After the MA changes the buildings became deserted and are even more so now, and even playing Freedom Villains I feel like it's a ghost town. Other than the usual areas Freedom blue side, it feels freaking empty over there too. Sure you can throw together a team, but it's not like it used to be. I think part of the MA problem that just can't be helped is a waning CoX community that may look strong on paper, but in reality, is just too spread out between all of the servers, then spread out between all of the zones, then further spread out between either red or blue side. That's a topic for another day, though.
This brings us back to the OP:
Put a "Speed Limit" on the MA in terms of rewards. A cap. A maximum amount of XP, Presige, drops, etc per hour (per character). Then let all MA critters give full xp, plus a bonus for extra abilities beyond the 'norm' for their rank and level.
They might need to add a new "MA Bar" to the UI to let you know how close you are to the cap.
You'd probably need to still impose a minimum amount of offensive powers for them to offer any xp at all.
Then MArchitects can create missions as they wish and players won't break the game by hitting the level cap in a day.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Because it's... Can ya' guess? FUN
Imagine that? People can have fun without gaining XP? |
And I dont mind if customized enemies give less XP.
But I DO mind when perfectly viable enemies give NO rewards at all because I removed a single power.
Even when I added more and better powers to make up for it.
People facing a very reasonable challenge when playing my arc but getting no rewards for my critters is not "fun". Not for the players when they had to use expensive stuff to defeat a boss and get nothing for him, nor for me when people dont play my arc now when it says it contains custom critters.
This brings us back to the OP:
Put a "Speed Limit" on the MA in terms of rewards. A cap. A maximum amount of XP, Presige, drops, etc per hour (per character). Then let all MA critters give full xp, plus a bonus for extra abilities beyond the 'norm' for their rank and level. They might need to add a new "MA Bar" to the UI to let you know how close you are to the cap. You'd probably need to still impose a minimum amount of offensive powers for them to offer any xp at all. Then MArchitects can create missions as they wish and players won't break the game by hitting the level cap in a day. |
I dont like the idea of capping my xp or influence. IMO the devs need to look at the standard game groups of villians. And then map out a threat level based on their attacks, and use that as a guage to giving rewards on MA critters. So basiclly standard dev rewards equal a certian level of gain for a threat assesment. Use that as a baseline, then asign powers in the critter sets similar values for attacks debuffing or controling etc. If you custom critter is atleast the same as a base line dev then you get full xp, if its higher you get slightly higher, maybe 10 percent. if its lower its xp is based again on its threat.
Then give a base that every critter has to have atleast 2 attacks or something like that to prevent the non-hitter critters.
I beleive they already tried that.
What, may I ask, bothers you about an xp/advancement cap? Such a cap would likely be so high 95% of players would never see it. Or is most of the playerbase level capping in less than 48 hours of gameplay these days?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Someone makes a thread about how to fix it, and the dev response is basicly "its alternative not equal" not something useful like "were still working on getting a system in place that would appropriately reward players for thier hightened efforts against AE custom mobs."
Would that have been so hard to say, it infact they were still working on it? |
Also, if the devs were working on a solution to custom critter XP, it would be hard to say that they were still working on it because they would probably be barred from saying so. There are rules about speaking about future game developments that are not locked-in certainties, especially about controversial matters like AE rewards. All they could say is probably what has already been said, which is that the current state is likely not the final state. I doubt any of the red names would be allowed to say anything further.
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Actually, BaB is not a reward designer or an AE system designer, so BaB's comment is not an official dev response. BaB was commenting colloquially. BaB's statements about the design of the AE have no more official weight than mine do, unless BaB specifically indicates he's speaking in an official capacity. BaB has said this more than once himself. BaB is the animation-lead. He's the reward-nothing.
Also, if the devs were working on a solution to custom critter XP, it would be hard to say that they were still working on it because they would probably be barred from saying so. There are rules about speaking about future game developments that are not locked-in certainties, especially about controversial matters like AE rewards. All they could say is probably what has already been said, which is that the current state is likely not the final state. I doubt any of the red names would be allowed to say anything further. |
BaBs is a developer, as such he might not directly work on every aspect of the game, but would certinally have knowledge of what is being worked on in other departments. It is not like the staff on the game is so large they dont see each other, talk, have meeting etc.
Saying its still being looked at and researched is not commiting to a fix,or putting a time table ona fix. But to basicly offer a snappy remark with no information is trolling. His post offered really nothing to the discussion of a possible fix, or related to the original topic by commenting on a proposed fix. If BaBs was one of us, a moderator could have smacked his post, i know i have gotten warning emails for less.
I dont expect the devs to make comments out of turn, i dont expect the devs to keep the players aprised of all things in development before the right time to discuss it. But I also dont expect them to take part in double speak on issues we are discussing. If they have nothing constructive to offer then perhaps they need to offer nothing at all, or at minimum have a non dev forum account and offer those opinions through that rather then a red name.
erm yer hi, erm i have a little suggestion about the architect thingy.
erm how about we add in a feature which makes making boss only enemy groups impossible, like you would make it and click ok, and it would have a message pop up or something which read: "your enemy group does not fit the minimal requirements. I mean this would allow for normal level exp in the architect system, as well as stopping boss farms and stuff, in fact the most you would get would be farms equivalent to those in dev content. (you would have to check the, no auto spawn box to make sure thats turned off)
Also this wouldn't disrupt the bosses you can put in the game, as if you wanted a boss on it's own you could make blank minions to go with it so it's allowed, or have a boss only enemy group that cannot be set as the main enemy group.
Also with the attacks, instead of using the player powersets, there should be sets specifically made for custom enemies, that would be similar to those found in he real game, this way you could make the enemies the same difficulty as those in the dev content because the powers would supliment the chars. (you could have like easy, mid and hard levels so it's not totally uncustomisable (with the enemies survivability balancing them out so that easy arn't the best for farming (e.g. few attacks, more hp, loads of attacks, low hp, similar to how the AT's work)))
Also we should be allowed a character creater that has more options than the default one, e.g. taller enemies, different body shapes (already existing ones, like rularuu and the horteling lashers...) and the ability to make GM's and stuff.
Yay mission architect fixed, and loads of players come flooding back and give the CoX people lots of money as a thankyou for their efforts ^^
it's a win win no brainer to me... now actually getting it in game is the hard part...
If this is the case then BABs shouldnt be offering opinions, atleast not under his red named account.
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BaBs is a developer, as such he might not directly work on every aspect of the game, but would certinally have knowledge of what is being worked on in other departments. It is not like the staff on the game is so large they dont see each other, talk, have meeting etc. |
Saying its still being looked at and researched is not commiting to a fix,or putting a time table ona fix. |
But to basicly offer a snappy remark with no information is trolling. His post offered really nothing to the discussion of a possible fix, or related to the original topic by commenting on a proposed fix. If BaBs was one of us, a moderator could have smacked his post, i know i have gotten warning emails for less. |
Also, BaB *is* one of us, when it comes to forum posts. BaB has actually been modded in the past. The community managers don't answer to the designers; BaB is not higher in the food chain than Mod8, he's in a completely different part of the company.
Actually, in many ways the devs are held to a higher standard than the average poster, specifically because they represent the company when they post, even when they are not specifically representing their official position in the company. I can say things they can't get away with saying.
I dont expect the devs to make comments out of turn, i dont expect the devs to keep the players aprised of all things in development before the right time to discuss it. But I also dont expect them to take part in double speak on issues we are discussing. If they have nothing constructive to offer then perhaps they need to offer nothing at all, or at minimum have a non dev forum account and offer those opinions through that rather then a red name. |
And if you think its not constructive to be told that one of your assumptions about the AE might be wrong, and therefore all of your conclusions about the AE that derive from that assumption are suspect, and any argument you make to the devs that include that assumption have a significant probability of being dismissed, we have a different definition of "constructive."
And by the way, I actually don't know if BaB had first-hand knowledge, or was just guessing when he said what he said. So I'll reiterate: the AE's "alternate levelling path" makes no guarantee that it will provide an equivalently fast levelling path. And I am not guessing.** I think its fair to suggest its too low because its drastically too low. But its not fair to suggest its too low because its lower at all. That's a target you have no right to expect, in the sense that the devs have not stated or implied you'd ever get, all assertions to the contrary notwithstanding.
Comparing this to "Jack-speak" and saying that "alternate means equal" is ironic, because that sort of redefinition of English is exactly what Jack was often accused of. Alternate means equal in exactly the same way that Enhancements aren't powers: only from a very specific and narrow point of view.
** I've had discussions with many devs about the AE, from before I14 was in beta, up to the present day. Their collective position about rewards in the AE during those discussions has been consistent ever since Positron laid down the law on it in the open forums: the AE is intended to have rewards (it was originally conceived to be reward-less) but those rewards may not be equivalent to the rewards achievable in other parts of the game. They may be qualitatively different, and they may be lower. That's been true ever since the AE's design was changed to allow rewards at all.
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Then who determines how long it should take. I am not saying that i think 48 hours is appropriate time, however if XP rewards were solved so that AE was similar to normal xp earning and still allowed for creative control of your creations, then the problem is solved with no need to limit how quickly i can earn xp on some arbitrary scale of how fast the devs feel i should level or how much is to much ina day or whatever.
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While it would be quite possible to keep trying different combinations and then nerfing them once exploits were found into the forseeable future, I think a 'speed limit' is a more elegant solution.
It directly solves the issue of gaining rewards "too fast" while allowing full critter creation flexibility.
And there is no question of who decides how fast is too fast. That has apparently already been decided; we just haven't been given the number. If not, no changes would have been made in the first place.
Unless you think all of the changes to the AE were because of '0-risk' critters, which I don't believe to be the case. If so, they would have just put a minimum amount of attacks out there and been done.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
If xp is reduced and tickets aren't that means you will get more IO recipes per level. This means AE players will be even more powerful then their counterparts per level. So they are very comparable choices.