Low Lvl I/O's - yeah, huh?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-08 21:27 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
Not necessarily the same thing. My statement is written as such to be a generic solution to the problem. Your statement is not the positive of mine, but rather one possible solution.
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Originally Posted by Squez
Or positively stated, simply have the devs turn on the level slider for random rolls.
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I slot TOs until 12. DOs until 22. SOs until 32. Basic IOs until 50.|
Originally Posted by beyeajus74018
I hear ya, my guess is that ppl don't start farming for recipes until 50?
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The only exceptions to the above rule occur when I get a steadfast unique in my teens. Something that seems to occur for every character I build. Or I'll craft low level chance for +end procs. If other useful IOs drop, I may craft them or store them.
Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother?
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Redside, or Blue? I may have alleviated this shortfall somewhat by storing a handful in that range from sometime ago (blue), but I don't remember. It appears in some cases low/mid-level rare pool As are becoming scarcer (at least according to price) than some Cs.
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Originally Posted by Organica
I'm trying to slot FOUR sets of Obliteration, and the ones that are hardest to come by in the 30-40 range right now seem to be Damage and Accuracy/Recharge. I got multiple bids out at different levels, just waiting for something to fill.
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Uh, this is not logic class, young son. Your proposal is what we call the deficit model of things. It's easy to offer what is not the case (i.e., not tying random merit rewards to level--a deficit).|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Not necessarily the same thing. My statement is written as such to be a generic solution to the problem. Your statement is not the positive of mine, but rather one possible solution.
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Asset model to problems focuses on what we do have. We have a slider. And as the current system can't deal with the privation (as you noted), just turning on the existing mechanic is more focused on what exists already.
Most importantly, though, I'm not getting my stuffs fast enough. However, this will increasingly mean that someone stands to make a decent chunk of loot from me. This is an asset model I think we can all get behind.
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
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I think it's worth the bother. I personally like to stock up on set IOs that are in the 28ish-35 range.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother?
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In my case it's a combination of several factors. One, I am a low playtime altaholic, so even with the level smoothing it still takes a long time for any particular character to go from 25 to 50, so I'd rather be able to start getting the big enhancement percentage advantages that come from slotting multi-aspect IOs earlier than 50. This also gives me more time to wait for bids to fill on any individual character.
Another reason is that the crafting costs on the higher level IOs just go through the roof. Getting them below 40 would be up to 100-300k less per IO. And since I don't really bother marketeering much, that's actually a noticeable amount of money to me. Not to mention that lower level IOs seem to usually be cheaper (when they're available, anyway).
Lastly, I want to keep any bonuses I have when I exemplar. By slotting level 30ish thunderstrikes and red fortunes and level 25 BoTZs (25 to avoid the most expensive salvage), my FF defender keeps his softcapped ranged defense all the way down to 30 if I just turn on hover. I like taskforces, so....
If you play more often on fewer characters, marketeer more, and don't exemplar much, then there probably isn't much reason to go below 50. In my case, though, I certainly think there's a point - and it's not pvp.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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I have several level 50 characters that are superbly IO'd out with level 50 IO's. When they exempt down all of those bonuses go out the window.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother?
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I now have 4 characters that are nearly fully IO'd out (in the one case, I'm still trying to pick up a few things like those Oblit pieces) or already ARE fully IO'd out before level 50 (with powers and slots yet to come of course, but with IO's waiting for when I level up). And when I exempt down as low as 30 or 25 (depending on the character) I'll still have the majority of my set bonuses. My MA/WP scrapper for example I worked extra hard to make sure all of my IO's were level 30 or 29, so I can exempt down pretty far and still function very well. ^_^
/shrug. It's much easier to buy the stuff I want at 50, but there are certainly advantages to doing it earlier. Sometimes my 40-ish scrappers are better tanks than the tanks they team with. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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I have several level 50 characters that are superbly IO'd out with level 50 IO's. When they exempt down all of those bonuses go out the window.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother?
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I now have 4 characters that are nearly fully IO'd out (in the one case, I'm still trying to pick up a few things like those Oblit pieces) or already ARE fully IO'd out before level 50. And when I exempt down as low as 30 or 25 (depending on the character) I'll still have the majority of my set bonuses. My MA/WP scrapper for example I worked extra hard to make sure all of my IO's were level 30 or 29, so I can exempt down pretty far and still function very well. ^_^
/shrug. It's much easier to buy the stuff I want at 50, but I've gone that route several times before, and there are certainly advantages to doing it earlier. Sometimes my 40-ish scrappers are better tanks than the tanks they team with. ^_^
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
Return KHTF to pre-merit rules and you'll see an army of mid 30's unleashed to replenish that supply...I can dream can't I??
The thing I most miss about the Katie, is getting my controllers to 30, and a couple of Katies later (say 3 hours) I had my pet. They were great for getting you from 30 to 35.
I too like to roll my merits and tickets as I level, and put the ones I do not use up on the market. This has worked well for me on blue side, but recently on red side, I had to pull about 10 lv 10 IOs, that just sat there unselling. And from the looks of it, blue side is heading that way.
What I would like to see the Devs do, is lock the recipes to the level of the slider. If I choose to spend tickets for a lv 10-14 recipe, I should get a lv 10 - 14 recipe.
It would also be nice if you could use the Pillar of ice and fire before lv 25. If I make a lv 12 toon to just generate low level recipes, I can get tickets easily, but the only way I have to generate merits is to run a Posi.
Global is @honcho
On Champion
Living Coal LV 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Nature Boy LV 41 Earth/Kin Cont
Great Wacko LV 34 Robot/FF MM
plus many alts
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I didnt mean to say anyone's actions dont make sense, just that for those who want to reach 50 on this character they just rolled as fast as possible, selling the few low level stuff they still get (when playing normal content in their level range instead of level 50 missions with friends or AE missions) is not a very rewarding thing to do.|
Originally Posted by Reptlbrain
BlueRaptor-- my beef with the comment was that creating mid-level recipes wasn't a sensible course of action. While playing CoX as much as I do is not sensible in real-world terms, within the confines of the game (and my playstyle) my actions make sense.
And you make a compelling case for sensible activity with a different mindset. If you only play one character at a time. (I'm sure some of the time I spend on crafting/selling/shopping is inefficient in xp/min terms, but a huge portion of my own entertainment is tinkering with builds.) Again, if you stick to one character at a time. Buying a 40 makes sense in terms of availability, but by other measures (exemping for certain favorite TFs, PvP, cash-flow) a 33, 37, or 38 might be better. |
And think there are a LOT of people that want 50 as fast as possible. (And that thus only play this one char of course, as every break from it would make it take longer)
I am not one of them mind you. But I think its one of the main reasons for bad low level supply.
But yes, when am level 35 and see a level 38 Touch of Death and a level 40, I will buy the level 40 and wait till I level twice to slot it, because its simply not worth buying the 38 for just two levels, now that they fly by so fast imo. Sure, maybe 38 is special for those who know they often exemplar to 35 and have everything else on 38 too so they'll keep their set bonus then. But usually people'd either prefer to be coolest at 50 or will want it at minimum level then, not 38-some. And many might also not know or not notice their bonuses being removed, among all the other gimping when exing down. *shrugs*
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I would probably never buy that IO at level 30-anything. I don't usually buy significant numbers of set-Os until the mid to late 40s. (Things like Miracles or LotG globals I'll get early, but those are just a few one-offs.)|
Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
But yes, when am level 35 and see a level 38 Touch of Death and a level 40, I will buy the level 40 and wait till I level twice to slot it, because its simply not worth buying the 38 for just two levels, now that they fly by so fast imo. Sure, maybe 38 is special for those who know they often exemplar to 35 and have everything else on 38 too so they'll keep their set bonus then. But usually people'd either prefer to be coolest at 50 or will want it at minimum level then, not 38-some. And many might also not know or not notice their bonuses being removed, among all the other gimping when exing down. *shrugs*
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But when I do, I'd buy the 38, because it's likely to be anywhere from 1/2-1/10th the cost, and I'll be very unlikely to notice the % difference in enhancement.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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For what its worth...a full set of level 40 ToDs vs a level 38 set gives|
Originally Posted by BlueRaptor
But yes, when am level 35 and see a level 38 Touch of Death and a level 40, I will buy the level 40 and wait till I level twice to slot it, because its simply not worth buying the 38 for just two levels, now that they fly by so fast imo. Sure, maybe 38 is special for those who know they often exemplar to 35 and have everything else on 38 too so they'll keep their set bonus then. But usually people'd either prefer to be coolest at 50 or will want it at minimum level then, not 38-some. And many might also not know or not notice their bonuses being removed, among all the other gimping when exing down. *shrugs*
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.9% more accuracy
.3% more damage
1.3% more end reduction
.9% more recharge
Is that even noticable...when you factor in how much cheaper the level 38 is going to be I dont see it as a contest. I know the stock response is going to be "but Ill know, and therefore will covet the better set." I wish there was some way to do a blind taste like they do with pepsi or coke...or that "We secretly switched the coffee in this gourmet restraunt with new Folgers crystals" thing they used to do...
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Maybe, just a little bit, if you're doing one of those uber builds meant to take down a pylon in five minutes, it might make a tiny bit of a difference on paper. And really, when you're shelling out for purples and PvP IOs, the cost difference between a 38 and 40 ToD is pretty insignificant. The big difference is that the 40 will be available, as long as you're willing to pay. The 38 might not be.|
Originally Posted by Frogfather
For what its worth...a full set of level 40 ToDs vs a level 38 set gives
.9% more accuracy .3% more damage 1.3% more end reduction .9% more recharge Is that even noticable...when you factor in how much cheaper the level 38 is going to be I dont see it as a contest. I know the stock response is going to be "but Ill know, and therefore will covet the better set." I wish there was some way to do a blind taste like they do with pepsi or coke...or that "We secretly switched the coffee in this gourmet restraunt with new Folgers crystals" thing they used to do... |
I use max-level because it bugs my eyes to see 38s and 39s. I am perfectly aware that there is no noticeable difference. Every time I look at my enhancement screen I have a moment of "what's that 37 doing in there? Oh, right, it's the proc."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
I tend to split time between my 50s who I enjoy playing plus get the benefit of making more inf and my various lowbies.
However since I level up so fast I rarely accumulate much in the lower levels. And less so exactly at 35.
If you aren't, I'd suggest you expand your bidding to 31-38 or so on both the recipes and enhancements. A complete pain I will admit but that is what it takes for me to get them. If you aren't bidding but just popping in to try to buy it now you are going to lose out to people who are leaving bids because that gives them coverage when offline.
Also when I do get drops I check the prices and decide if it is worth it to tie up a slot to sell them so apart from special ones like Numina's, etc. it seems rarely to be worth the effort to list IOs since no one is bidding or the last 5 show a long time stretch and lousy prices.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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For me there is an entertainment factor of just how long (not high) can I make that list of bonuses go. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I slot TOs until 12. DOs until 22. SOs until 32. Basic IOs until 50.
The only exceptions to the above rule occur when I get a steadfast unique in my teens. Something that seems to occur for every character I build. Or I'll craft low level chance for +end procs. If other useful IOs drop, I may craft them or store them. Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother? |
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I work the same way up until the 30s, where I do look to slot sets where I can, especially if they're cheap or if they are capped below 50 (if I want a set that caps at 40, no reason not to start looking for them at 37). More and more I end up skipping Basic IOs. It's easy and cheap to keep slotting SOs and I figure whatever is there will eventually be replaced anyway.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I slot TOs until 12. DOs until 22. SOs until 32. Basic IOs until 50.
The only exceptions to the above rule occur when I get a steadfast unique in my teens. Something that seems to occur for every character I build. Or I'll craft low level chance for +end procs. If other useful IOs drop, I may craft them or store them. Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother? |
I just like to bonus chase as I go. If I'm picking up three slots with each non-power level from 30 on, that's three more potential bonuses. It's like another little perk, and gives me something else to do.
When I get to 50, I may have 80, 85, 90% of my build done. Which is good - because when I get to 50 I typically look to start leveling another character anyway. Most of my play time on a character will be before level 50, so it makes sense for me to get the IOs as early as I can.
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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I'll echo some of the other responses, but I thought of one particular example as I was heading over to the boards: Stone tanks.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Under no circumstances do I bother filling up on setIOs before 50. What would be the point beyond building specifically to dominate in the lower level PvP zones? Hitting 50 is now SO EASY, even solo, why bother?
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Rooted is run, and Granite is more fun, but after reading GrudgeRockhorn's guide a long time back, I slotted up to the gills on run speed; it's downright enjoyable. Getting those bonuses in as early as possible literally makes the journey to 50 go by quicker (or at the very least, getting to the next thing to pound).
President of the Arbiter Sands fan club. We will never forget.
An Etruscan Snood will nevermore be free
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I've just spent several weeks obsessively sucking up a whole bunch of Oblit sets at exactly 35. I'm done now, you can have the next few.|
Originally Posted by Organica
I'm trying to slot FOUR sets of Obliteration, and the ones that are hardest to come by in the 30-40 range right now seem to be Damage and Accuracy/Recharge. I got multiple bids out at different levels, just waiting for something to fill.
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The OP specifically mentions level 35 being hard to find. After I set the arbitrary target of 35 for my own latest exemplarable build, I noticed posts in lots of forums mentioning the same level as a goal. I think a surprising number of people want exactly level 35 sets -- not 34, not 39, not 37, but 35. This made it pretty hard for me to accumulate a bunch of them, but once I'd started, I felt committed.
IMHO demand is way higher at precisely the level the OP complains about than at any other level.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Those were good answers, folks. I don't exemplar much, so having a build full of level 30something IOs for me would mean having a weak character at 50.
For giggles, I just opened up a build of mine in Mids and set all the enhancements to 35 that could go there.
Values before change:
Melee Def: 45.9
Range Def: 45.2
AoE Def: 45.2
HP: 1953
Regen: 32.4
Values after change:
Melee Def: 45.4
Range Def: 44.8
AoE Def: 44.8
HP: 1953
Regen: 31.9
Wow. That's farking negligible. I done learned somethin new today.
Be well, people of CoH.
Oh yeah, from a practical point of view using 35ish IOs is a far better option, the performance difference is negligible and you keep bonuses when exemping down. But purchasing sub-50 IOs is frustrating so I use 50s anyway (except for globals where there's enough of a market to make it worth the effort)
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Indeed Bill.|
Originally Posted by BillZBubba
Wow. That's farking negligible. I done learned somethin new today.
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I find the lack of mid-range supply especially disconcerting and I agree
about the key causes probably being (in no particular order): Merits,
Levelling Speed, AE (that didn't drop anything), Player perception (like
yours) where a player feels that low level IOs aren't effective enough,
thus refusing to get involved with them until much, much later levels,
and finally, I-16 farming where a> it's done by L50's b> It's not worth
the time for non-50 players to bring mid-level stuff to market so they
vendor or even delete it.
This is particulary vexxing for me because I might be the poster-child for
using low-mid level IOs and sets.
I start it much sooner than most - L10 Common IO's at L7, L15 Common IO's
at L12, Frankenslotted Set IOs at L25-L28 (augmented with simple Commons
as appropriate). I haven't used TOs, DO's or SO's for at least a year now.
While commons are no problem, mid-level set IO's are becoming increasingly
difficult to get simply due to lack of availability. To me, that points to an
unhealthy market, which I would hope could be looked at.
Sadly, that doesn't seem to be on the dev's radar as far as I can tell...
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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I'm not sure that the devs could do anything about it even if they were so inclined. A large part of the problem is due to the player choices and actions rather than anything the devs control. The market for most mid-range set recipes has dropped below the point of being sustainable. There is relatively little demand and consequently low supply which in turn causes the lower demand. Mid range recipes generally take a long time to sell unless there's a bid already up and you fill it for what is usually a pittance. This leads to a perception that selling mid-range recipes on the market is a waste of time as even if they sell you won't get much for them. This is exacerbated by the fact that Pool C/Ds are rarely generated at anything other than max level. The devs could (as many people have requested) allow us to make random rolls at something lower than our true level, but even if they did I'm not sure that would help the market. Many people would still roll at max level simply because the more people who participate in a market the stronger it is so it makes sense for everyone to roll at the same level and 50 is a convenient level to choose.
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Originally Posted by FourSpeed
While commons are no problem, mid-level set IO's are becoming increasingly
difficult to get simply due to lack of availability. To me, that points to an unhealthy market, which I would hope could be looked at. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be on the dev's radar as far as I can tell... |
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While I understand the direction you're going here, I have to respectfully|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
A large part of the problem is due to the player choices and actions rather than anything the devs control
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disagree somewhat.
It's true that they're player choices, but players *respond* to changes the
devs have made. I would argue that things like perception and demand
for these items follows as responses to the way the Devs have tailored
current gameplay.
It logically follows that there may be changes which could be made which
produce responses that increase market health rather than diminish it.
Some examples (just off the top of my head) might be:
* Merged Market - no brainer here. This one has been debated to death.
* Non sellable recipes - crafted IO's can only be traded, or sold at market.
Why not do the same with Set IO recipes? Sure, many will still be deleted,
but some will not - supply increases. It's not like vendors pay much for these anyway.
* Merits: Currently you get enough that a non-merit-farmer could afford 3-5 IO's
in their career through normal play - why such a low ratio? A toon gets ~100+
slots over their career... Why not give out a merit for any mission, for
instance, or set exchange pricing to be 20-25 IO's over a career. Most
folks just hoard these till L50 as a direct result of their rarity and their
very limited utility... Many never get used at all...
* Merit Rolls - Why NOT allow the roller to specify the *exact* level they
want? What does the current mechanism do? It favors high-level supply.
* Subject to exploitation checking, why NOT let normal AE missions drop
normal salvage? Recipes? Why bupkiss?
The point I'm making is that these are ALL Dev choices that players respond
to with certain behaviours, which in turn lead to certain game consequences.
Different choices would lead to different results... I don't know that they'd be
better, but I'd wager that the Devs don't know either. What I think I know
is that a market that only caters to L50 players, or has large inventory gaps
even in 2nd tier items isn't much of a market imho.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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That might work. At the same time it's a chicken and egg problem. Unless there's demand people won't bother to list recipes that might sit for weeks.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
* Non sellable recipes - crafted IO's can only be traded, or sold at market.
Why not do the same with Set IO recipes? Sure, many will still be deleted, but some will not - supply increases. It's not like vendors pay much for these anyway. |
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* Merits: Currently you get enough that a non-merit-farmer could afford 3-5 IO's in their career through normal play - why such a low ratio? Why not give out a merit for any mission, for instance, or set exchange pricing to be 10-15 IO's over a career. Most folks just hoard these till L50 as a direct result of their rarity... * Merit Rolls - Why NOT allow the roller to specify the *exact* level they want? What does the current mechanism do? It favors high-level supply. |
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* Subject to exploitation checking, why NOT let normal AE missions drop normal salvage? Recipes? Why bupkiss? |
.Quote:
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Different choices would lead to different results... I don't know that they'd be better, but I'd wager that the Devs don't know either. What I think I know is that a market that only caters to L50 players, or has large inventory gaps even in 2nd tier items isn't much of a market imho. |
This means that as long as the devs choose to allow players to select the level of their reward the market will tend to focus on a single level. Giving the players more flexibility in their choice of level might change the level from 50 to 33/35 but I don't think there is enough of the population who are interested enough in performance to ever move the entire market to that point.
P.S. I did manage to get a level 40 acc/rech.