Why can't defensive sets ever max out at 100%
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-12-04 13:01 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Schedule A enhacements.
33.33% base, ED diminishing returns hit hard 95%+
Accuracy, Confuse, Damage, Defense DeBuff, Endurance Modification, Endurance Reduction, Fear, Fly, Heal, Hold, Immobilize, Intangible, Jump, Recharge, Run, Sleep, Stun, Taunt
Schedule B Enhancements
20% base ED hits hard at 56%+
Range, Defense Buff, Resist Damage, To Hit Buff, To Hit Debuff
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Enhanc...iversification
Basically a defence SO is a lower buff amount than a damage one, and everything else you see flows from that.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
You're missing several things actually.
First is Enhancement Diversification. In a nutshell, any enhancement of the same type after the third is reduced so much it might as well be considered nothing. Even the third enhancement is reduced slightly.
Second is that there are 4 types of enhancements. Where a tier 1, like accuracy, single origin enhancement buffs a power by 33%, a tier 2, like defense buffs, only buff the power by 20%.
Third, is that the base value of the buff for combat jumping is itself quite low. For a scrapper, it only provides 1.875% defense. If I stick a single SO defense buff in it, it becomes (1.875*1.2) 2.25% defense. If I stick 2 SOs in it (40% buff) it becomes (1.875*1.4) 2.625% defense. A third SO in CJ only buffs the power by about 56% instead of 60% due to enhancement diversification, so it only bumps it to (1.875*1.56) 2.925% defense to all.
Be well, people of CoH.
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A minor point: After the third SO. It is value based, not number of enhancer based, after all.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
First is Enhancement Diversification. In a nutshell, any enhancement of the same type after the third is reduced so much it might as well be considered nothing. Even the third enhancement is reduced slightly.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Enhancements operate under a diminishing return formula. The rule of thumb is only place 3 SOs worth of enhancement, anything beyond that is essentially useless. The DEVs labelled this Enhancement Diversification. Set bonuses are not subject to ED, so they apply face value to your powers.
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That seems like a terrible waste of valuable slots. Six slotting Combat Jumping on a Blaster barely gains you 1% better defense over a completely unenhanced CJ. Even on a Tank, you'd only gain about 1.5% higher defense by doing this. Those slots could be so much better used in other ways.
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Originally Posted by Fusion_7
I've noticed this every time I build a new toon and pick up a power like Combat Jumping to help with my defenses. When slotting for this power, I usually six slot it with maybe five Defenses Buffs and maybe one Jump. Sometimes I may max all six slots with the Defensive Buffs. When I then view my percentage of where I am at, it always shows it at around 66% or thereabouts. Unlike other power sets when you view them they will usually show what percent you are getting which is normally much higher in percentage. For my level 50 Blaster, I have her 6 slotted with the Red Fortune set and still can barely reach just under 70% with that. Is there something I am missing here about slotting defensive sets or is it impossible to get any defensive set to reach 99% or 100% capacity?
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Anything under 3.75% DEF doesn't get slotted for defense when I do stuff. CJ or Hover for instance when I slot them will usually just have sets or procs on them. If I plan to use Hover in combat, it'll get slotted up with some +fly speed bonuses and end reduction. CJ usually just has a Kismet or LotG in it (if it's not just sporting a random DEF IO).
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
That seems like a terrible waste of valuable slots. Six slotting Combat Jumping on a Blaster barely gains you 1% better defense over a completely unenhanced CJ. Even on a Tank, you'd only gain about 1.5% higher defense by doing this. Those slots could be so much better used in other ways.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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For a tank maybe, but for a blaster the 3% to all from the power & enhancers, boosted up to 6% ranged from the 6th red fortune is kinda a big deal.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
That seems like a terrible waste of valuable slots. Six slotting Combat Jumping on a Blaster barely gains you 1% better defense over a completely unenhanced CJ. Even on a Tank, you'd only gain about 1.5% higher defense by doing this. Those slots could be so much better used in other ways.
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PuffCat claw/rgn scrapper
Painfull Death fire/fire tank
Spiney Slaughter spine/da walkingnuke
And many others including lvl50s of all ATs.
Mainly on Virtue, but Heroes on all servers.
A few lowbie villains on Justice and Virtue
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Not really. The only case when I'd go for specifically slotting defense in CJ is if I've got no other defense powers left to use for defense sets, or if I'm trying to softcap an SR using just SOs.
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Originally Posted by PuffCat
For a tank maybe, but for a blaster the 3% to all from the power & enhancers, boosted up to 6% ranged from the 6th red fortune is kinda a big deal.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Except that Blessing of the Zephyr gives a better bonus for only two slots.
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Originally Posted by PuffCat
For a tank maybe, but for a blaster the 3% to all from the power & enhancers, boosted up to 6% ranged from the 6th red fortune is kinda a big deal.
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Or, instead of doing +5 slots to a useless power like CJ to get +5.3% ranged DEF (it's not +6%, by the way), you could:|
Originally Posted by PuffCat
For a tank maybe, but for a blaster the 3% to all from the power & enhancers, boosted up to 6% ranged from the 6th red fortune is kinda a big deal.
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+1 to CJ, +1 to SJ
slot 2x Zephyr in each
With that you get +8% ranged DEF and have 3 slots left over.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Defenses really tend to become stronger as they get, well, stronger, and so the higher you get them, the more you get out of each point of increase. This is probably why the defenses are all on Schedule B instead of Schedule A.
I mean, if a Resistance ITSELF maxed out at 100%, that means you would resist 100% of damage. 
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Yep, what you're missing is that the percentages are somewhat misleading. They presume there is a 100% that you can hit which means "all."|
Originally Posted by Fusion_7
I've noticed this every time I build a new toon and pick up a power like Combat Jumping to help with my defenses. When slotting for this power, I usually six slot it with maybe five Defenses Buffs and maybe one Jump. Sometimes I may max all six slots with the Defensive Buffs. When I then view my percentage of where I am at, it always shows it at around 66% or thereabouts. Unlike other power sets when you view them they will usually show what percent you are getting which is normally much higher in percentage. For my level 50 Blaster, I have her 6 slotted with the Red Fortune set and still can barely reach just under 70% with that. Is there something I am missing here about slotting defensive sets or is it impossible to get any defensive set to reach 99% or 100% capacity?
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Actually, when you slot to 66% what you are really slotting to is "1.66x". In other words, you're slotting to 1.66 times higher. There's nothing magical about slotting to 100%. After that comes 101%, then 102%, then 103% - you are basically increasing the dial from 1.66, to 2.00, to 2.01, to 2.02, and so on.
The reason why you can't get much higher than about 60% for some things, and 95% for other things, is because enhancement strength has diminishing return limits.
Just to be sure you understand, defensive powers are quoted in percentage strength: Focused Fighting offers 13.875% defense unslotted. That "percentage" doesn't mean you dodge 13.875% of all attacks: there's a formula which basically says critters have a 50% chance to hit you by default, and 13.875% defense means you *subtract* 13.875 percentage points from the attacker chance to hit: 50% - 13.875% = 36.125%. That's all that "percentage" means. Obviously, the goal is not to hit one hundred percent, but fifty percent, because 50% - 50% = 0. Except the game enforces a floor of 5%, which means defense of 45% is the limit.
Enhancements have a percentage, but those are just multipliers like I mentioned above. A power with 10% defense that has 66% enhancement is not 76% (10% + 66%), its 10 percentage points of defense boosted to 1.66 times the original strength, or 10 * 1.66 = 16.6. That power would then offer 16.6 percentage points of defense.
Its important to try not to get the "%"s mixed up. Think of defense powers as offering points of defense, and enhancements as offering multipliers to those powers.
A good source for more information on these areas is the paragonwiki page on Attack Mechanics. That article covers the topic more generally, accounting for more effects.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Short version:|
Originally Posted by BlissKnight
My brain hurts....
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DEF/RES stuff maxes at around ~55%
Most other stuff maxes at around ~95%
If RES/DEF went up to ~95%, it'd make stuff wacky.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Edit: Looked at CatWhoorg's link you can get up to 195% in Knockback.
What about Knockback? I wanted some cheap +recharge and -end and the set bonuses were nice so grabbed a few knockbacks out of a set and ended up with +133%.
How high can go with it? any others that go this high?
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Six slotting Combat Jumping on a Blaster with lvl 50 Red Fortune provides only 5.3% ranged defense.|
Originally Posted by PuffCat
For a tank maybe, but for a blaster the 3% to all from the power & enhancers, boosted up to 6% ranged from the 6th red fortune is kinda a big deal.
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Those slots would still be better used slotting up a more useful power, ESPECIALLY on a Blaster.
There are several options:
*Put the Red Fortune set into Maneuvers or Weave.
*6 Thunderstrike in a ranged attack for 3.75% ranged.
*6 Mako's Bite in a melee attack for 3.75% ranged.
*1 Steadfast unique for 3% to all.
*2 Blessing of the Zephyr in a travel power for 3.13% ranged.
*6 Gaussian's in a to-hit power for 2.5% to all.
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ED doesn't kick in with a vengeance on Kb until you get to about 180 pre ED (165 post ED). It is the only enhancement that follows this schedule. Interrupt is also an odd one, it is lower than knockback but still slightly higher than all other enhancements.|
Originally Posted by psycheout
Edit: Looked at CatWhoorg's link you can get up to 195% in Knockback.
What about Knockback? I wanted some cheap +recharge and -end and the set bonuses were nice so grabbed a few knockbacks out of a set and ended up with +133%. How high can go with it? any others that go this high? |
Basically ED really kicks in once you're got the equivalent of three even level SOs slotted into the power (it starts having an effect at or just above 2 even level SOs). Since SOs have one of four different values (20%, 33.3%, 40%, 60%) ED kicks in at different points.
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The basic is idea is that most powers can be doubled through Enhancements. You can get twice as much damage, healing, hold duration, flight speed, running speed, etc. This is double what the base of the power itself is, so if you have a weak power (like Brawl) even doubled it will still do less damage than a strong power. (like KO Blow) |
Originally Posted by BlissKnight
My brain hurts....
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Because defensive powers tend to get too strong if you just double them, instead they go up to 160% maximum. That's Defense, Resistance, ToHit Buffs and Debuffs. (Damage buffs and debuffs can't be slotted, but they'd probably go in this category too) It's not that you have only 60% of the overall Enhancement, it's that the maximum Enhancement is only +60% of the base. (Glad Arcanaville posted that, I didn't even think about that that was what the OP was thinking of)
Range is on the same schedule as defenses for whatever reason. Knockback and Interrupt actually are higher than 100%.
It might help to note that before Enhancement Diversification, the maximum was 300%, where it is now 200%. (Or 220% where it is now 160%) Most people ended up slotting damage for about 266%, since they still needed a slot for Accuracy. That was still quite extreme, and made very high level characters much more powerful than they are now. IO's have compensated for some of that, but a lot of the problem was that the devs felt that the gap between high level players and low level ones was too great. There was just not enough room at the highest levels to tweak power strengths without nerfing low levels.
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Or the best option yet:|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Six slotting Combat Jumping on a Blaster with lvl 50 Red Fortune provides only 5.3% ranged defense.
Those slots would still be better used slotting up a more useful power, ESPECIALLY on a Blaster. There are several options: *Put the Red Fortune set into Maneuvers or Weave. *6 Thunderstrike in a ranged attack for 3.75% ranged. *6 Mako's Bite in a melee attack for 3.75% ranged. *1 Steadfast unique for 3% to all. *2 Blessing of the Zephyr in a travel power for 3.13% ranged. *6 Gaussian's in a to-hit power for 2.5% to all. |
*All of the above for softcap or close to it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I've noticed this every time I build a new toon and pick up a power like Combat Jumping to help with my defenses. When slotting for this power, I usually six slot it with maybe five Defenses Buffs and maybe one Jump. Sometimes I may max all six slots with the Defensive Buffs. When I then view my percentage of where I am at, it always shows it at around 66% or thereabouts. Unlike other power sets when you view them they will usually show what percent you are getting which is normally much higher in percentage. For my level 50 Blaster, I have her 6 slotted with the Red Fortune set and still can barely reach just under 70% with that. Is there something I am missing here about slotting defensive sets or is it impossible to get any defensive set to reach 99% or 100% capacity?