Add more damage to Cobra Strike
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-20 11:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Which would put it at roughly the same land area as a 15-foot-wide AoE. Yeah, large cones can compare to AoEs pretty handily.
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Shockwave is about 706 sq feet
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Oh, I think MA is very fun too. I have a monkey MA/Shields that the kick animations work perfectly for and a super strength MA/WP stalker that uses all the animations. The set is potent enough to get the job done with style and honestly, if that was all the set could do I'd accept it. If there were like 5 alternate animations for every power in the set, I'd just tag that as the set's niche: The Most Customizable and Fashionable....but it's not quite there yet.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Personally, I find it a very fun set to play. That's what I personally find special about it.
Also, as NeverDark pointed out: Whether or not you find it "good" is subjective and a matter of preference. Some find it weak, others find it to work very well for their play style. |
Whether what it does do is 'good enough' isn't subjective when you're talking about only 2 100% stuns, one of which is short duration, 1 stun with 10% chance (that's about as good as a pool power), 1 mag2 immobilize with a 50% chance of an added mag1 immobilize (good enough for a Lt or below) with a minor movement debuff (although the -fly is good) and the 2 knockdown/back abilities.
Granted, the knock- powers are pretty decent but the effects overall across the set could be *better*. Heck, I'd love Crane Kick to be 100% kb for one! But whatever effects MAs has are too small to make a noticable difference or are completely overshadowed by multiple sets that focus on it. And it's not like what it has is out of the scope of other sets. Immobilize? Spines and DM do it much better. Stun? EM, WM, SM. Slow? Ice and Spines. KB? SS, SM, Axe, Claws.
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| The only sympathy I feel is for the people (yourself included) who are unintelligent enough to have a discussion in an adult, rational manner. |
As for the argument of semantics about the secondary effects: more a matter of PoV. You consider the jumble of effects (that is usually scattered throughout *every* set) MA's secondary effect and I don't. That's just our points of view and leave it at that.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I want to step in and say that that's not true in the slightest. Martial Arts was NOT adjusted, it was very much almost entirely reworked, in the process having a FULL animation switched. ....
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...but I was thinking about recently, probably i12 to recent. I thought the animations were sped up a bit when they added the 5% crit chance to Storm Kick. But alot of melee sets had animation adjustments and I'm hoping Spines will too. As is, the attacks are so painfully slow it's not easy to finish off a single target with just Lunge, Impale and Ripper.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
My main is MA, I've played it for over 1000 hours. I find this whole argument silly.
In the end equation, you've got to ask yourself, what would the change accomplish? Bumping the damage of a Light Single Target Attack up to to Moderate wouldn't accomplish jack for the playability of the set. I don't need numbers or compelling demonstrations to know that. In 1 Player vs 1 Target, most of the time MA ends up overdamaging in order to finish off a target. I'd rather have a solid Light Dmg, Fast Recharge, LOW END COST, attack to plink off that last 5% or as an opening move to keep a target on its heels while I deal with something else. More Damage means more END, and more Recharge. That's the equation, and Castle won't break the rule without damn good reasons. MA definitely doesn't need to slow down, and cost more. |
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If you're going to quibble on semantics, you really shouldn't do it over something as obviously wrong as deliberately mistaking the difference between PBAoE and AoE. Anything that can hit more than one target is an AoE, and that's what the post you quoted was talking about.|
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA
Which does not equate to PBAoE. A cone is a cone. An AoE is an AoE.
Yes, please do. |
Please learn how Language works.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Actually, I believe you're the one who started with the insults and "you are dense" snarks. Treat others the way you would like to be treated and maybe people will take you more seriously.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Now you tell me how I'm suppose to have an intelligent adult discussion with Miss_Freeze (the one who those 'friendly' threats were aimed at) when they throw insults at me and constantly tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when she in fact doesn't?
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Also, saying that you'll "slap someone's teeth out" is not what I would call "friendly". I'm sure the forum mods will make the final determination though.
Not to split hairs, but Eviscerate and Shockwave are AoEs based on the Invention sets you can put into them. They'll accept PBAoE and AoE IO sets (respectively).
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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I was under the impression that we were talking "at all." You mentioned changes to Martial Arts animation times, and as far as I can remember, the only time that happened was the rework with I2. That still puts it behind Katana, though, which essentially got a full set's worth of new animations. Even its own Taunt. But aside from that, yes, Martial Arts was changed significantly.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Were we talking about way back in i2? Well then yeah, MA had animation adjustments like no other set.
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| ...but I was thinking about recently, probably i12 to recent. I thought the animations were sped up a bit when they added the 5% crit chance to Storm Kick. But alot of melee sets had animation adjustments and I'm hoping Spines will too. As is, the attacks are so painfully slow it's not easy to finish off a single target with just Lunge, Impale and Ripper. |
That said, I do very much agree that something could be done about Spines. It has the "Barrage" problem of Barb Swipe (was it?) using that slow and fat Barrage animation, yet being the set's weakest attack, among other things. And I was surprised to see Claws' Focus as a fast attack, while Lunge (was it?) still uses the very slow baseball pitch. I tend to enjoy longer animations in general, but I prefer them when animation length reflects power, so small attacks are quick, big attacks are slow.
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| Whether what it does do is 'good enough' isn't subjective when you're talking about only 2 100% stuns, one of which is short duration, 1 stun with 10% chance (that's about as good as a pool power), 1 mag2 immobilize with a 50% chance of an added mag1 immobilize (good enough for a Lt or below) with a minor movement debuff (although the -fly is good) and the 2 knockdown/back abilities. |
Martial Arts is a lot like Archery in this respect. Archery attacks have no secondary effects. At all. Damage attacks do damage, Stunning Shot stuns. What Archery does well is accuracy and range - insane innate accuracy, serious range on their heavy-hitter (80 feet vs. 40 feet for everybody else). Martial Arts has added accuracy (just not as much) some stuns (two guaranteed, which is more than most other Scrapper sets) and generally quick attacks (something not true for Archery past Snap Shot and Aimed Shot). Whether that's enough... I don't know. Like I said, it's debatable. I do know that the set's damage leaves something to be desired, especially compared to something like Broadsword (itself lacking a truly meaningful secondary effect, but whatever) or even Katana, not to mention the DPS that Claws bring to the table. I guess the problem could be AoE damage, but frankly, with the set lacking any actual real heavy hitters, I think that's the biggest reason I have that feeling. All Martial Arts attacks are... Kind of underwhelming. And damage in Cobra Strike won't help with that. Not unless we make it a heavy hitter, and I don't expect to see a second Clobber.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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One specific thing I remember is CAK's animation time cut much shorter and this was recently (I wasn't even around for MA's original animations) and yet players still complained it was too long. If they changed anything else I can't remember but I think some time was shaved off of EC and Crane too.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
No changes to Martial Arts animations have happened to the best of my knowledge. I could have missed something, but I highly doubt it. Either that, or the change was so minor I could literally not notice it, because the set played for me exactly as it always has as far back as I can remember it.
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| "Good enough" is subjective, in that Martial Arts not being good enough is subject to debate. |
Compare MA: What does it have to make up for it? Only style, really. Claws potentially out does it in speed and maybe about even with Kat; BS, EM, Fire and probably another set or two I'm not thinking out does it in pure damage; Everything but fire beats it in utility and everything beats it at AoE. Does it or does it not have a particular redeeming feature that makes it stand out?
Also, Claws *does* have end/rech discounts on top of what effects it has (and they're reliable too), Axe's KB is no more unreliable than MA except it has more and DB has 2 100% KB and a -def ontop of combos,
The 'effects' of Archery are getting a nuke that recharges in twenty seconds and doesn't crash.
You are breaking washing machines into its tiniest of parts and complaining the size of their screws. Neither washing machine fails at being a washing machine because of the differences to which you object.
Also, Leo:
War Mace and Ice Melee were improved because we could demonstrate that the sets were lacking in concrete terms when comparing them to other sets. Ice Melee took us three years to get changed, even WITH data that showed that it was lagging far behind the other sets. Ice Melee still isn't on top for any one things, but it does everything well enough. War Mace still isn't on top for anything either, though it does a few things well.
If you're trying to get a power changed in a set, you do need to demonstrate to the Devs that the set is lacking somehow. Just saying that it's a mish-mosh of secondary effects isn't good enough. You need to take that and prove that because it's a mish-mosh of secondary effects, that it lags behind the other sets somehow. I've played it to 50, and don't think that it is, in any way. The set performs well, in my eyes, because it's not a one-trick pony, relying on one effect to make it work.
Having the ability to do different things makes it a better set, for me. If you want to show me any differently, you need to show me exactly how the set is suffering, because I've been there before on an actually under-performing set, and it's not that easy to get a set changed without data.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
^ This.
We keep reading that the set "needs something" because it is "lacking something" or "lags behind other sets", but those making the claim can't define what's missing or provide any data for a dev to look at.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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Because martial arts need a damage buff. Martial arts and Spines are 2 of the slowest animation powersets for scrappers to use but martial arts suffers more because of its lack of aoe damage. A simple buff to cobra strikes damage would it no way make martials overpowered. It also wouldn't fix the real problem which is slow animations.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
Could you elaborate on why?
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Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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And again, can you prove this point with data, as opposed to just your opinion?|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
Because martial arts need a damage buff. Martial arts and Spines are 2 of the slowest animation powersets for scrappers to use but martial arts suffers more because of its lack of aoe damage. A simple buff to cobra strikes damage would it no way make martials overpowered.
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Have you compared the DPS between sets, and found that Martial Arts is significantly behind the other sets? Is the damage in line with other sets over time? Are the secondary effects what is making the set worse than other sets? Do the secondary effects need a higher chance to occur to make the set better?
In short, have you taken an objective look at the set in comparison with the other Scrapper rpimaries, as opposed to just a subjective look?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
..... Martial arts does have less damage than the other sets. I have several 50 scrappers that I have played and played again. Scrappers that I leveled to 50 without farming and scrappers that have tons of set bonuses. Martial arts should be doing more damage than it does because of its slow animation times. My martial arts / super reflexes scrapper remains to be my favorite scrapper despite its flaws.
The buff to cobra strike damage however would not fix the real problem with the set.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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Excellent we have progress...now please quantify your assessment with data.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
..... Martial arts does have less damage than the other sets. I have several 50 scrappers that I have played and played again. Scrappers that I leveled to 50 without farming and scrappers that have tons of set bonuses. Martial arts should be doing more damage than it does because of its slow animation times. My martial arts / super reflexes scrapper remains to be my favorite scrapper despite its flaws.
The buff to cobra strike damage however would not fix the real problem with the set. |
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Ah, THAT change. Yes, now that you mention it, I do remember. However, the change I remember wasn't to animation times, but rather to damage. Prior to it, Crippling Axe Kick was a very low-damage attack, useful only for its immobilization (hence "crippling") and not at all for its damage. It was boosted to be almost at the same level as Crane Kick, which caused people to complain that "Well, yeah, but it's still too slow! No amount of damage will make up for that!" Understandably, those calls were ignored and Crippling Axe Kick was left with a decent damage component and its current animation. In fact, I'm not sure it changed during the I2 Martial Arts changes at all, which is what makes it slow by current standards.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
One specific thing I remember is CAK's animation time cut much shorter and this was recently (I wasn't even around for MA's original animations) and yet players still complained it was too long. If they changed anything else I can't remember but I think some time was shaved off of EC and Crane too.
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| It's funny you bring up Archery as an example. I'd actually consider the effects within Archery subpar. The fire DoT is nice and the stun is standard but the knockback isn't reliable at all...and that's all it has, really. But what makes up for that is it's absolutely beastly AoE potential. How many blast sets out-do it there? Probably just fire/ but that has even less mitigation in it. |
*Enemies +a LOT when the situation calls for it
*Enemies with absurd defence powers, like Drones and Earth Casters
*While suffering from severe to-hit debuffs, such as those applied by Spectral Demons and Hurricane users.
This is the single greatest aspect of the set - it simply almost never misses against anything. I don't know why that is, but I do know that this is one thing I can rely on.
Also, Archery does not have a "beastly" AoE potential so much as it has a mini-nuke. Outside of that, Archery's AoE is sub par to average. And even with that, it still lags behind something like Fire Blast and DEFINITELY behind Assault Rifle in terms of AoE. In fact, the set is almost completely standard, with three stepped single-target attacks, a cone, an AoE, Aim, a snipe, a utility power and a nuke, only it differs in that it has a mini-nuke. Whether those are better than full-fledged nukes or not is subject to debate.
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| Compare MA: What does it have to make up for it? Only style, really. Claws potentially out does it in speed and maybe about even with Kat; BS, EM, Fire and probably another set or two I'm not thinking out does it in pure damage; Everything but fire beats it in utility and everything beats it at AoE. Does it or does it not have a particular redeeming feature that makes it stand out? |
Where Martial Arts suffers is in that it's a very low-damage set, apparently built to be quick but weak, only it isn't actually quick. It's not slow by any means, but for the damage it does, it's nowhere near quick enough. Put it this way - Martial Arts has damage on its attacks comparable to Katana. Only Katana is faster (yes, it is) AND has a lot more AoE AND a secondary effect that actually stacks nicely AND which also helps protect the user.
Martial Arts does have its own secondary effects, but it just doesn't have enough damage to truly shine. I don't believe the answer is to give more damage to Cobra Strike, though.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just my 2 inf, but I've always thought this makes sense thematically. Kicking someone isn't necessarily going to do the same damage as whacking them with a Katana or Broadsword. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Where Martial Arts suffers is in that it's a very low-damage set, apparently built to be quick but weak, only it isn't actually quick. It's not slow by any means, but for the damage it does, it's nowhere near quick enough. Put it this way - Martial Arts has damage on its attacks comparable to Katana. Only Katana is faster (yes, it is) AND has a lot more AoE AND a secondary effect that actually stacks nicely AND which also helps protect the user.
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Also, from a thematic standpoint, I've always thought that Storm Kick should be a cone due to the animation it uses.
I'd argue that the secondary effects of MA (stuns and immob in particular) stack nicely when used properly. Cobra Strike and Eagle's Claw work nicely to perma-stun a target... CAK keeps them in place while you finish them off.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
I've thought about it and I've come to the conclusion that...more martial arts powers need a chance to disorient.
The main reason that "I" wanted a change to Cobra Strike is because you basically need Eagle's Claw and/or Thunder Kick to get the most efficiency out of the power.
Unfortunately, for me, my build doesn't have Eagle's Claw or Thunder Kick.
So maybe, in order to make Cobra Strike more "useful", more martial arts attacks need a chance to disorient...similar to what Thunder Kick already has.
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Unfortunately, Castle hasn't quite come to that realization yet, or MA would have had a PBU-variant a couple of years ago. Quite a stubborn fellow, Castle.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Arcana's idea and she is usually right about balance concerns.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
I've thought about it and I've come to the conclusion that...more martial arts powers need a chance to disorient.
The main reason that "I" wanted a change to Cobra Strike is because you basically need Eagle's Claw and/or Thunder Kick to get the most efficiency out of the power. Unfortunately, for me, my build doesn't have Eagle's Claw or Thunder Kick. So maybe, in order to make Cobra Strike more "useful", more martial arts attacks need a chance to disorient...similar to what Thunder Kick already has. |
How about you just take the powers (that already exist) to do what you want........
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May I ask why you seem to get so offended by these suggestions?|
Originally Posted by brophog02
How about you just take the powers (that already exist) to do what you want........
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I mean, I understand the point in wanting the people, who suggest, to do their homework and look up information before posting suggestions...but why do you come off so angry and seemingly offended by the suggestions?
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And so losing some of the effectiveness of the set (via stacking stuns) is by your choice, not by anything being broken with the set.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
The main reason that "I" wanted a change to Cobra Strike is because you basically need Eagle's Claw and/or Thunder Kick to get the most efficiency out of the power.
Unfortunately, for me, my build doesn't have Eagle's Claw or Thunder Kick. |
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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Before the MA adjustments:|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
One specific thing I remember is CAK's animation time cut much shorter and this was recently (I wasn't even around for MA's original animations) and yet players still complained it was too long. If they changed anything else I can't remember but I think some time was shaved off of EC and Crane too.
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TK: 1.07s
SK: 1.0s
CS: 1.93s
CK: 2.0s
CAK: 2.17s
DT: 1.67s
EC: 3.0s
After the circa I13 adjustments:
TK: 0.83s
SK: 0.83s
CS: 1.67s
CK: 1.67s
CAK: 1.6s
DT: 1.5s
EC: 2.53s
Some may recall that at one time I used to complain that MA was the only scrapper set that had *three* single target attacks with cast times of 2.0s or more, making it actually a slower set in some ways than Broadsword.
I had asked BaB to look at shaving frames from MA's animations, but I believe that the reason BaB ultimately looked at MA was that he got the green light to eliminate the weapon draw padding from weapon sets, and he looked at MA so it wouldn't get left out (and so I wouldn't get medieval on his ***).
On the subject of Cobra Strike. On many occasions I've advocated reducing Cobra Strike's recharge so that it is consistent with ToF. I think the problem is that CS can stack with the other MA stuns, and that fences Castle into not allowing CS to generate too much stun magnitude per minute. However, I don't think that is a legitimate barrier to reducing CS's recharge. It can't stack with EC until at least level 32, which means for half the game CS doesn't have a legitimate stacking partner (TK is not a legitimate stacking partner in terms of balance: its chance for effect is too low). That isn't true for ToF: ToF's stacking partner is ToF itself. And I don't buy the issue that stun is so much of a better effect than fear that it must be moderated much more strongly. In the case of a single target melee power, the difference is minimal. Contrary to common belief, fear doesn't break on *every* instance of damage. In fact, a DM spamming ToF on a Boss to keep him perma-feared will likely only get attacked about every ten to fifteen seconds, if that (and that doesn't factor in the fact that a Boss would be tohit debuffed to the point of missing most of those attacks anyway).
In terms of overall capability, CS is a bit too low for what it does, especially compared to its two closest peers: Parry (DA) and ToF. Since its defined to be a control power with minor damage, adding damage is not consistent with its definition. Since its not in a control set, increasing mag to 4 is also unpalatable. But reducing its recharge is not out of the question.
The MA secondary effects are such a mess, if I had my way I'd wipe them out completely and start over (or rather, I'd grandfather the current MA set and make a new one with the same powers - which is also something that goes a bit contrary to the devs' design ethic). But given what we have now, I think CS can use a bit of a buff. Unfortunately, the only buff I can think of that I think has any chance at all is a recharge reduction. I think all my other suggestions for CS have an even lower chance of getting done.
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I came to that conclusion and I completely understand...that's why I haven't posted in here in awhile.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
And so losing some of the effectiveness of the set (via stacking stuns) is by your choice, not by anything being broken with the set.
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Would added the chance to disorient to other MA attacks (similar to Thunder Kick) make the set broken?
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
^ This.
We keep reading that the set "needs something" because it is "lacking something" or "lags behind other sets", but those making the claim can't define what's missing or provide any data for a dev to look at. |
Just a quick reply to the argument: Like I said, I'm not good with the in-game numbers. And besides that, with all the calculations on mitigation levels of defensive sets, I've heard time and time and time and time again that it isn't easy to quantify the effective survival levels of sets like Dark Armor with regards to the secondary effects of fear and stun. I don't really see how it would be any easier doing the same for Martial Art's secondary effect especially when it's not an offensive effect like -res or -def.
Here's some numbers from BillZ
They include all current melee sets if added to Brutes and Scrappers "as-is" back in May of 09 (So post I14, including the I13 animation changes). MA comes in for ST DPS above both the more commonly used sets of Broadsword and Katana for "normal-recharge builds". It is, in fact, roughly middle of the road for all current scrapper sets, with the following results:
Claws: 153 DPS
Fiery: 152.5 DPS
Dark: 144.9 DPS
MA: 143 DPS
DB: 138.5 DPS
Katana: 131.2 DPS
BS: 123.8 DPS
Elec: 106 DPS
Spines: 81.8 DPS
Now, knowing that Elec and Spines are AoE sets, not ST, MA is still smack in the middle, and above 3 other (very popular) sets for ST DPS. in fact, it's only 10 DPS shy of the leader, and has a 19.2 DPS advantage over the lowest ST set.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Yes, please do.
Shockwave is 30 feet 90 degree cone with a cap of 10 (the same as spin)
Spin incidentally has an area of effect of ~201 sq feet
Shockwave is about 706 sq feet
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617