City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Add more damage to Cobra Strike

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-20 11:22 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss_Freeze_NA View Post
So.... you want to just stand there using unenhanced powers on a boss? This is by far the most idiotic excuse I have ever seen as a "reason" to make a change to a power.
I was using that "excuse" to compare Cobra Strike and ToF.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
So put enhancements in it and use it the way it was intended to be used.
Even enhanced Cobra Strike will only stack for .3s

 

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Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Even enhanced Cobra Strike will only stack for .3s
Which, again, is meant to be used in concert with the other powers in this set. You simply can't understand that.

Your excuse of "it won't work on a boss with 1 hit" is very weak as well. This is like saying any power in the game is useless because it won't kill a boss in 1 hit. It's ludicrous to believe any power should do this.

You also can't understand that pure damage is only a small part of how powersets are balanced. Used as intended, there is not a single thing wrong with Cobra Strike.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Even enhanced Cobra Strike will only stack for .3s
Which is why you stack the stuns from Thunder Kick and Eagle's Claw with it. Pretty much a no brainer.

Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

The stun from Thunder Kick is only a 10% chance, although it's a quick, spammable attack.

I wouldn't mind seeing Cobra Strike getting the Clobber treatment, but I think it would have to be adjusted similarly and moved later into the set, swapped with Crippling Axe Kick, maybe.

My beef with Cobra Strike is that it comes at a time when other Scrapper sets already have access to three damaging attacks with fast to moderate recharge times. At 20 seconds, Cobra Strike is tied with Fire Sword Circle for the slowest recharge of any attack or control power in Scrapper primaries. For the purposes of that comparison, I was not counting Build Up clones, Dark Consumption or Soul Drain, which I consider self-buff powers.

So, I sort of agree with the OP. I'd like to see Cobra Strike's damage increased AND have it moved later into the set OR have it left as is but have it moved later in the set to be exchanged with another damaging attack. However, I definitely do not think CS should be able to one-shot stun bosses.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Don't tell me I'm not understanding. Your not understanding.

What I said is not false.

I know you can stack those powers (-def attack in Kat and BS, -tohit from DM)....but if you use them alone on a boss, they will work.

If you use Cobra Strike on a boss...it will not work.
Cobra Strike on a boss WILL work because it I'm fairly sure it stacks. It's meant to mez targets, not damage them. That's what the OTHER 6 powers are for.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Total Focus also does EXTREME damage.
You keep overlooking that fact...and then you try and tell me to do my homework.
It may say Extreme, but have you looked at the unmodified damage totals? Or are you going by what it says on the tin?

 

Posted

Unenhanced, Cobra Strike's stun duration at level 50 is just about 12 seconds, and it recharges in 20. So, fully enhanced for stun duration and no recharge, you'd be able to stack it for less than 4 seconds on a single target at level 50. With some recharge slotting, you could get it to self-stack for extremely short periods around the mid 20s. Best to stack it with a stun from another attack, as already mentioned.

 

Posted

I demand that Cobra Strike's animation be made available for use with Crane Kick. It's a damn shame that such a cool animation is coupled with such a situational/skippable power. So sayeth the wise and mighty Cynical_Gamer!

Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Cobra Strike should be different because it does not do anything else other than stun (it has the very minor damage, which is the whole point of this thread).
Controller holds have more effects than just the hold.
Did you even read this post by Miss_Freeze_NA?

[quote][...]Most Controllers need more than 1 application of a hold to lockdown a boss./[quote]

I play Controllers so I can testify to this. Fear does tend to impact bosses more than a stun, but it is broken by damage, unlike a stun. In that regard it balances out; it's harder to stun a boss, but it can't be broken by damage.

Look at it this way. Asking for Cobra Strike to do more damage is like asking for Flash to even begin using some form of damage.

 

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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer View Post
I demand that Cobra Strike's animation be made available for use with Crane Kick. It's a damn shame that such a cool animation is coupled with such a situational/skippable power. So sayeth the wise and mighty Cynical_Gamer!
Here, Here!

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Cobra Strike should be different because it does not do anything else other than stun (it has the very minor damage, which is the whole point of this thread).
Controller holds have more effects than just the hold.
I agree, my AR/Dev Blaster has both Beanbag and Taser and the damage they do is horrible. Clearly they should both do total focus levels of damage since that is their primary purpose. *sigh* Just be glad you have multiple stacking mezzes in your Primary, most Blasters have to rely on a combination of powers from their primary and secondary to mez a boss.

 

Posted

Cobra Strike does DS 0.2625, putting it equal to all ST stuns (technically, it does slightly more damage than some of the others thanks to AT modifiers). It's currently perfectly in line with all other ST stuns.

In order to get Cobra Strike changed to do more damage, you need to do three things:

1.) You need to convince the devs that there is a problem with Martial Arts. If they don't believe that Martial Arts has a problem, they won't look at any of the powers in that set.

2.) You need to convince the devs that of all the powers in Martial Arts, only Cobra Strike needs changing. Once they decide they need to look into the set, they could change any of the powers in the set to fix the perceived problem, and there's only a 1 in 9 chance that it's Cobra Strike they pick.

3.) You need to convince the devs that the only way to fix Cobra Strike is by giving it more damage. There are approximately 6 attributes that they could tweak to fix Cobra Strike, and there's no guarantee that damage is the one they'll pick.

You've jumped immediately to step 3, and that's a recipe for failure.

We'll always have Paragon.

 

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Originally Posted by brophog02 View Post
That's irrelevant. You're not doing your homework, because if you did you'd see all of the mag 3 stun powers out there, and notice a dearth of mag 4 stun powers. You'd also have the least bit of a clue how powersets are balanced.

I'll just tell you, since we're 40 posts in and you still REFUSE TO DO ANY WORK IN YOUR OWN SUGGESTIONS thread.

We might as well rename it the "Vitality was too lazy to actually make a real suggestion thread".

Single Target Stun Powers that are mag 3:

Taser
Stun
Beanbag
Stunning Arrow
Screech
Scramble Thoughts

It's pretty simple, had you done any work at all for this thread: Single Target stuns are generally Mag 3, AOE stuns are generally Mag 2.
Seriously!?

Okay, I'm just walking into this thread and the argument against the OP is quite ridiculous, IMO. Basically, if you're saying it's not a needed change, you're saying it wasn't needed for them to increase the damage of Siphon Life because Dark melee was already balanced and performed well. But seeing as it was changed, DM is simply *better* now. Is it overpowered? Well, you tell me.

If the damage of Cobra Strike was increased, would that push MA's damage into the unbalanced stage? And this is just any arbitrary damage increase. Yes it wouldn't be balanced if it did Total Focus damage (duh, it's available at lvl 2. We're not morons). If it did, say Storm Kick or Thunder Kick dmg then it's a possible other attack choice yet on a long rech.

Also:

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Taser
Stun
Beanbag
Stunning Arrow
Screech
Scramble Thoughts
You got me on Taser and Beanbag (also notice how those are in sets not regarded that strongly) but those other powers?

Stun: Does low damage but thankfully it's in a set with *6* other stun powers to stack with it.
Stunning Arrow: While it has low damage, it is in a set that excels at AoE damage on a budget.
Screech: Okay, it's only a stun but *oh wait*! Rejected! Screech isn't even in the same league as the other stun powers. Why? Because it lowers resistance for +10sec that graciously stacks with all the other 7sec -res in the set!
Scramble Thoughts: Really, the only equivalent to Cobra Strike in that it's a control focused power that does nothing more. But at least it's in a set with a secondary effect.

For MA, the set has no secondary effect. It just has a mish mash of effects like knock-, slow, immobilize, stun and Stalker/Scrapper-specific +crit. None of them stack effectively or are particularly noticeable on their own.

Does it make the set bad? No, the set is fine. But it also doesn't do the set *good*. It has no specialty. Nothing it excels at. And no secondary effect to fall back on. I wouldn't oppose a dmg increase to Cobra Strike but then I never take it anyway. I'm sure if they adjusted the dmg, the stun would be rather pointless then and I don't want them to increase the stun mag.

They could make Cobra Strike and Screech equivalent and add -13% res to it. Then it'd be comfortable to say MA's secondary effect is it's grab-bag of effects...

...personally, I'd suggest a change to Focus Chi. Make it a power build up power that improves your stuns, slows and immobilizes as well as your def, heals and speed for the duration of the effect (10-15sec).

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Basically, if you're saying it's not a needed change, you're saying it wasn't needed for them to increase the damage of Siphon Life because Dark melee was already balanced and performed well. But seeing as it was changed, DM is simply *better* now. Is it overpowered? Well, you tell me.
And the devs made that change of their own volition. In order to convince them to do so again, you need a strong argument. This is unabashedly a buff to a set that does not currently underperform, and it's a buff that causes a power to break from the mold set for powers of its type. Thus far, there hasn't been much argument made beyond "it does low damage".

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For MA, the set has no secondary effect. It just has a mish mash of effects like knock-, slow, immobilize, stun and Stalker/Scrapper-specific +crit. None of them stack effectively or are particularly noticeable on their own.
This is stronger, but it still doesn't completely prove that MA needs a solid buff, and it definitely doesn't lead into buffing the damage on Cobra Strike.

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...personally, I'd suggest a change to Focus Chi. Make it a power build up power that improves your stuns, slows and immobilizes as well as your def, heals and speed for the duration of the effect (10-15sec).
Highly, highly, highly unlikely. Castle hates all forms of Power Boost as it is now.

We'll always have Paragon.

 

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And the devs made that change of their own volition. In order to convince them to do so again, you need a strong argument. This is unabashedly a buff to a set that does not currently underperform, and it's a buff that causes a power to break from the mold set for powers of its type. Thus far, there hasn't been much argument made beyond "it does low damage".
Clobber was changed by suggestion from forum goers. Frozen Aura was changed through request by forum goers. If the final decision to change those was affected by said posts aside, we're here discussing suggestions. Is it your job to mitigate what we have to do to persuade a dev? Or is it your job to discuss the merits of a proposed change?

IMO, I think your time would be better spent discussing why such a change is *not* balanced.

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Highly, highly, highly unlikely. Castle hates all forms of Power Boost as it is now.
Arcana's idea and she is usually right about balance concerns. Still, it's a likely alteration because Scrappers/Stalkers don't have sets of wide-spread AoE debuffs/controls that are affected by such an effect. It's not in the same league as giving PBU to Defenders/Dominators/Controllers.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Stun: Does low damage but thankfully it's in a set with *6* other stun powers to stack with it.
Stunning Arrow: While it has low damage, it is in a set that excels at AoE damage on a budget.
Screech: Okay, it's only a stun but *oh wait*! Rejected! Screech isn't even in the same league as the other stun powers. Why? Because it lowers resistance for +10sec that graciously stacks with all the other 7sec -res in the set!
Scramble Thoughts: Really, the only equivalent to Cobra Strike in that it's a control focused power that does nothing more. But at least it's in a set with a secondary effect.
Why are you people struggling with this. NONE OF THIS is relevant in terms of disorient mags.

None.

Of.

It.

It's simple: Single Target is generally mag 3, AOE is generally mag 2. Nothing else matters when it comes to the mag of the power. The power could do no damage, minor damage, or extreme damage. It could have secondary effects or no secondary effects. Sets are not balanced by the reasons posts like this keep reciting, so stop doing it!

The reason some of us are hard on the OP is they didn't do their research into the suggestion. Backing them up by being as ignorant as them is not helping, and only gets the storm redirected to you.

 

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Originally Posted by brophog02 View Post
The reason some of us are hard on the OP is they didn't do their research into the suggestion. Backing them up by being as ignorant as them is not helping, and only gets the storm redirected to you.
Lol! If you got a storm then BRING ON THE RAIN SUCKA!

But seriously, if you had any reading comprehension you'd have figured out no one is even talking about the magnitude of any of those powers. No one is talking about changing the magnitude. And no one is using the magnitude of the power as justification of anything.

Do you want me to quote specifically where the OP says they *don't* want the mag increased?

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post

For MA, the set has no secondary effect. It just has a mish mash of effects like knock-, slow, immobilize, stun and Stalker/Scrapper-specific +crit. None of them stack effectively or are particularly noticeable on their own.
You begin by saying that the set has "no secondary effect", then go on to list the secondary effects that it has. Which is it?

The secondary stuns also stack very well with each other when used properly. If you want to be able to consistently keep a boss perma stunned, take and use Thunder Kick, Cobra Strike and Eagle's Claw in your attack chain.

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Does it make the set bad? No, the set is fine.
Then why change it?

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But it also doesn't do the set *good*. It has no specialty. Nothing it excels at. And no secondary effect to fall back on.
Again, you say that it has "no secondary effect to fall back on", but list the secondary effects it has.

MA specializes in being a ST damage dealer. That is its specialty and something it does very well. Knockdowns and knockbacks are also very effective controls the set has. Stunned or knocked down or knocked back targets are not going to attack you.

Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Ok...if adding damage is absolutely out of the question...then you it needs its stun mag raised so that it will work on a boss by itself.

Maybe something like: mag-3 stun with a duration of 11.9s with an extra mag-1 stun for 5.9s.
Then it would be able to stun a boss with one hit for 5.9s.
Sure, if you can make all my controller and dominator stuns and holds do that. And then increase boss mez protection to compensate.

As a scrapper, you don't need control to deal with bosses. If you do, you're built badly. Cobra Strike is a pinpoint tool which can be layered to mitigate boss damage.

"I do not like the way this power works." is not a compelling argument for change, as it can be immediately countermanded with "I do like the way this power works."

Provide some evidence that the powerset is inadequate. Then we can talk buffs.

 

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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee View Post

As a scrapper, you don't need control to deal with bosses. If you do, you're built badly. Cobra Strike is a pinpoint tool which can be layered to mitigate boss damage.
This.

For a scrapper, our brand of control is putting the mob DOWN.

Currently playing:
The Domestic: Broom/WP
Shadowhex: Dark Control/Dark Affinity
Defenestration Lass: Grav/Kin

"See, this is what happens when you have to shove all this stuff into your pockets: it's easy to misplace a suborbital warhead." -Arcanaville, on how crowded our power trays are getting lately

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Stun: Does low damage but thankfully it's in a set with *6* other stun powers to stack with it.
Not sure why I didn't think of this before. Stun + Total Focus work the exact same way as Cobra Strike + Eagle's Claw. In which case, I wouldn't mind them buffing the stun chance on Thunder Kick, since that's clearly the real problem.

And before it even starts - Scrappers don't get Energy Melee...yet. But Stalkers already get both, and it's only a matter of time before the other three melee ATs get whichever one they're missing.

Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior View Post
You begin by saying that the set has "no secondary effect", then go on to list the secondary effects that it has. Which is it?

The secondary stuns also stack very well with each other when used properly. If you want to be able to consistently keep a boss perma stunned, take and use Thunder Kick, Cobra Strike and Eagle's Claw in your attack chain.



Then why change it?



Again, you say that it has "no secondary effect to fall back on", but list the secondary effects it has.
Why do you force me to waste my time explaining simple things? Do you want me to explain that if you click enough attacks on a foe, he'll give you xp too?

Fine, I'll break it down:

Katana has -def as it's secondary effect. It's in all its attacks
Dark melee has -ToHit as its secondary effect. It's in all its attacks.
Claws has recharge and endurance discounts as its secondary effect. It's attached to all (except I think 1) of its attacks.
Dual Blades has combos. It's a mechanic the set gets for free.
Martial arts gets what?

On top of those secondary effect...
Katana has knockdown, knockup, +def and lethal DoT.
Dark melee has fear, +HP, +END, immobilize and neg DoT.
Claws has -def, ranged knockdown, ranged knockback
Dual Blades also gets -def and knockdown attacks
Martial arts has knockback, knockdown, slow, immobilize and stun.

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MA specializes in being a ST damage dealer. That is its specialty and something it does very well. Knockdowns and knockbacks are also very effective controls the set has. Stunned or knocked down or knocked back targets are not going to attack you.
So MA specializes in ST dmg dealing? But is it the best? Is it even near the top? Sets that specialize in ST dmg like Energy Melee or Claws have other specialties (EM single target control is superior to MA, Claws is cheaper, has greater AoE and range) ontop of dealing their ST dmg just as good if not better than MA. MA isn't even the best 'well rounded' set because Katana does it better in AoE mitigation, AoE dmg without falling behind in ST dmg/control.

Why change it? Because there is nothing special about the set! There is room for improvement. Not specifically to Cobra Strike but that's a possibility.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Dual Blades has combos. It's a mechanic the set gets for free.
Dual Blades gets combos based on whether or not a player selects the required powers and uses them in the correct order. Combos also depend on the required attacks landing. They're not 100% reliable.

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Martial arts gets what?
As many have pointed out, yourself including, knockbacks, knockdowns, stuns and a slow/immobilize.

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On top of those secondary effect...
Katana has knockdown, knockup, +def and lethal DoT.
Dark melee has fear, +HP, +END, immobilize and neg DoT.
Claws has -def, ranged knockdown, ranged knockback
Dual Blades also gets -def and knockdown attacks
Martial arts has knockback, knockdown, slow, immobilize and stun.
You keep attempting to say that MA has "nothing", yet keep pointing out what the set has.

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So MA specializes in ST dmg dealing? But is it the best? Is it even near the top?
This is entirely based on power selection, slotting, enhancement choices and most importantly, the player.

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Why change it? Because there is nothing special about the set!
In your opinion. In terms of balance, the developers disagree with you. Again, the DPS charts bare this out. "Because I don't like it" is nowhere near a sufficient reason to request a change to a set.

Provide clear data and evidence that the set is broken, simply does not work or is clearly far below other scrapper sets and maybe then the developers would listen.

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There is room for improvement.
Again, your opinion. There are those that feel the set is fine as it stands now.

Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper

Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Katana has -def as it's secondary effect. It's in all its attacks
Buildup, Divine Avalanche and Calling of the Wolf have -Def attached to them? News to me...

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Dark melee has -ToHit as its secondary effect. It's in all its attacks.
Confront, Dark Consumption and Sould Drain have -ToHit attached to them? News to me...

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Claws has recharge and endurance discounts as its secondary effect. It's attached to all (except I think 1) of its attacks.
End discounts and lower recharge rates are not a secondary effect in Claws. Claws has -Def in 1 attack and 2 knockbacks as secondary effects.

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Dual Blades has combos. It's a mechanic the set gets for free.
Assuming they land.

Come back when you know how powersets work and how they are balanced.