Add more damage to Cobra Strike
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-11-20 11:22 in Suggestions and Ideas
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The cone idea would work with its kick animation but not its new punch animation.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
My apologies... I didn't quite finish my thought in that one. You are correct. I meant to add that the order for CS and Storm Kick could be switched to allow for it.
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Not everyone uses the new animations |
Originally Posted by Vitality
The cone idea would work with its kick animation but not its new punch animation.
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
Quote:
People have suggested increased criticals across the board for MA for a long time, and that probably inspired Castle to add increased critical chance to Storm Kick. But my guess is that Castle does not have data that demonstrates MA lags significantly in damage output, which makes him reluctant to add increased criticals across the board.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
So here's my thinking. Is there another way to simulate the "precision" aspect MA is supposed to have, that would serve better than a simple +Acc bonus?
In the first attack in the set, the short description mentions an increased chance to Critical Strike, and that got me thinking. What if the entire set had that advantage? |
I'm not sure I want to just boost damage across the board, or increase critical damage across the board. I'd like to actually have the set fulfill its design goal of being a secondary-effect-y set. Perhaps attacks could be given "critical effects" which have a percentage chance to take effect. Storm Kick could have a 10% chance for -DMG debuff and a 15% chance for movement debuff. Thunder Kick could have a 10% chance for stun and a 10% chance for knockdown. Stuff like that. I'm not sure of the precise way I would want to do this: it would partially depend on what I could get away with. But I don't think pure damage increases across the board are what MA really needs, and increased criticals essentially does that.
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I can see what you're saying. I don't disagree. I think my thinking had to do with somehow making up for the lack of AoE, by increasing the 1shot single target potential with increased crits.
When my Mace/Shield Brute can pop Crowd control or Shield Charge and wipe out several minions, there's a disparity there, and there's got to be a way to get MA closer to that (we ought to get as many sets as we can to that standard and I think the devs are doing that incrementally, but the topic here is MA).
I like the idea of Critical Effects. I will reiterate the point we agreed on before, the effects need to be useful to the player such that they improve the quality of playing.
Knock- Up/Back/Down needs to be examined when applied to the set.
Debuffs for anything need to be handled such that they have an effect above and beyond any other effects of the power. Does Zero good for a damage debuff if it only lasts as long as a potential Stun the power lays on. Movement debuff is irrelevant if it's paired with Immobilize and doesn't last longer than the Immob (as you said above).
The more I think about it, the more I think if they do decide to do anything about MA, they ought to go All In. Maybe rebalance the whole thing, and implement a Combo Structure like DB.
However if they go that route, there are sets that need the treatment more (Spines- any set that makes Castle to think about balancing it needs help).
Part of me even feels a lot could be solved with a purely aesthetic facelift on the set. Lock BaB in a room with a bunch of Bruce Lee DVDs, and don't let him out until he's absorbed enough to put something together that does the moniker "Martial Arts" better justice.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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I've not done a lot of precision testing on Martial Arts, and every time I run any numbers, they look kind of OK. But empirical evidence seems to suggest, at least to me, that "something is off," so to speak. I like to think I have a fairly good sense of how fast things go down, and I do know that every time I got back to Martial Arts, nothing ever goes down as fast as it feels it should. I don't have any attacks I know I can rely on and I know that, whatever I do, I'm in for a LOT of kicking.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
People have suggested increased criticals across the board for MA for a long time, and that probably inspired Castle to add increased critical chance to Storm Kick. But my guess is that Castle does not have data that demonstrates MA lags significantly in damage output, which makes him reluctant to add increased criticals across the board.
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By comparison, if I pick up Broadsword, I know that I can chain things up in different ways and see almost instant carnage, either in single-target or in AoE. That makes sense, since that's pretty much what the set is good at. But the flip side of the coin - Claws - feels as strong, but in a different way. With it, I can't really kill anything in an attack or two, but with repeated slashes, I can actually shred things in no time flat just the same. Dual Blades is probably the only other set I can honestly say feels a little on the low side, but Dual Blades has a way to blow my socks off if I abuse the combos and pick a decent crowd.
But Martial Arts just feels... Off. Like there's something missing. The offence doesn't leave me feeling confident in my abilities, and the utility of the set plain isn't there. Again, I have no evidence to back this up, but based purely on feel, experience and judgement, that's how I feel.
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| I'm not sure I want to just boost damage across the board, or increase critical damage across the board. I'd like to actually have the set fulfill its design goal of being a secondary-effect-y set. Perhaps attacks could be given "critical effects" which have a percentage chance to take effect. Storm Kick could have a 10% chance for -DMG debuff and a 15% chance for movement debuff. Thunder Kick could have a 10% chance for stun and a 10% chance for knockdown. Stuff like that. I'm not sure of the precise way I would want to do this: it would partially depend on what I could get away with. But I don't think pure damage increases across the board are what MA really needs, and increased criticals essentially does that. |
Chance stuns aren't actually a bad thing in themselves. But BY themselves, they have little use. Energy Melee does well, largely because so many powers have a chance to stun, which means your chance stuns have many more opportunities to trigger. If Barrage doesn't slap one, Energy Punch might. And if that doesn't, then Total Focus probably will. When each attack carries a chance to stun, that stun matters. But a one-off effect? That's so unreliable it may as well not even be there.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't disagree about the 10% mag 2, but my intent was to suggest that MA powers would have *many* chances for different effects, and under those circumstances its less insulting for the chance for any one of them to be somewhat low, especially on fast-recharging powers. In effect, MA would become the "proc" set (personally, I think MA should have been the "combo" set, but since DB has that I don't want to dilute its unique ability unless I absolutely have to, and I don't think I have to).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I have no problem with Martial Arts being utility-centric, but if we're going to put that utility on a chance to occur, it better be GOOD. Good enough to justify it not being reliable. Frankly, I find a 10% chance for a short-duration mag 2 stun to be INSULTING. It's too short, it's not strong enough and it very rarely even triggers. Why even have garbage like that in the power at all? It is completely useless.
Chance stuns aren't actually a bad thing in themselves. But BY themselves, they have little use. Energy Melee does well, largely because so many powers have a chance to stun, which means your chance stuns have many more opportunities to trigger. If Barrage doesn't slap one, Energy Punch might. And if that doesn't, then Total Focus probably will. When each attack carries a chance to stun, that stun matters. But a one-off effect? That's so unreliable it may as well not even be there. |
Since I think Cobra Strike's stun uptime needs to be about 4 times higher anyway, I don't need TK to stack with it.
Maybe the higher the tier of power, the more potential proc effects it could have, until EC had a veritable rainbow of possible foe effects. I don't know if that is really practical, but it would at least be fun, and MA has basically had to survive mainly on being fun to look until now anyway.
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| Part of me even feels a lot could be solved with a purely aesthetic facelift on the set. Lock BaB in a room with a bunch of Bruce Lee DVDs, and don't let him out until he's absorbed enough to put something together that does the moniker "Martial Arts" better justice. |
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| I don't know if that is really practical, but it would at least be fun, and MA has basically had to survive mainly on being fun to look until now anyway. |
But having a plethora of secondary effects sounds like an interesting approach. Basically, just add a few effects, balance their chances and you've got something interesting.
What about focus chi increasing the proc chance for all the MA attacks? So a 10% chance of stun becomes 20%, a 60% chance of KB becomes capped at 100% and so on. Probably not possible but would be pretty cool if it did. I guess you'd just add a duplicate proc that only occurs while in chi mode that mathematically works out to be statistically double the percentage chance?
I think my issue with procs is that the chanciness of a raw % to occur would end up being frustrating to a lot of people.
CoV inherents moved away from % to happen procs specifically to address a lot of player complaints over their hit or miss nature (thinking specifically of Fury and Domination).
I know I opened the can of worms by mentioning Criticals in the first place, but my intent was to make them more reliable by increasing the overall chance for them.
In the end, I think procs would be ok, if there were a way to make them more reliable and controllable, above and beyond changing Focus Chi to increase the chance of them happening.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In effect, MA would become the "proc" set.
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| Maybe the higher the tier of power, the more potential proc effects it could have, until EC had a veritable rainbow of possible foe effects. I don't know if that is really practical, but it would at least be fun, and MA has basically had to survive mainly on being fun to look until now anyway. |
Honestly, it's not really much of a problem since almost no one actually enhances the secondary effects of attack powers anyway. Just something to think about, especially where the IO sets (and the ability to slot procs) is concerned.
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I must have glossed over your point, but I see what you mean. This... I can't say I'm too happy with this. On paper, that's have a lot of options to its name, but... None of them reliable. I have a power that stuns from time to time, but I can't count on that because it happens rarely. I have a power that debuffs, but how often will that happen? Basically, at least in terms of perception, such a setup would simply lead to questions as to whether the effects are working at all. Energy Melee's chance stuns work because, while you have a low chance of seeing any specific one of them over a power's cycle, your chance of seeing "just a stun" as a general thing is fairly high. I'm not guaranteed that Energy Punch will stun on its next few applications, but I have a good chance that SOMETHING will, and that gives me the impression that it's working. Thunder Kick's stun... Practically, I could swear it doesn't have on.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't disagree about the 10% mag 2, but my intent was to suggest that MA powers would have *many* chances for different effects, and under those circumstances its less insulting for the chance for any one of them to be somewhat low, especially on fast-recharging powers. In effect, MA would become the "proc" set (personally, I think MA should have been the "combo" set, but since DB has that I don't want to dilute its unique ability unless I absolutely have to, and I don't think I have to).
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Now, I guess you could say that just because the set has so many differing secondary effects, something will always be triggering, if they're just a hand basket of different effects, I'm not sure it'd matter too much. Energy Melee's stun I can rely on, because I know that every power I have works towards that. Broadsword's defence debuff I know I can count on, because I know any swing I get through (well, almost) will debuff, so if I miss on one, I just swing again. Power effects that are all over the place, though... Those become completely unpredictable and unreliable, and I have a hard time imagining that such a system would FEEL good, even if it actually works numerically.
Honestly speaking, I'd like to have as much of a characters' performance as possible in the hands of the actual player and as little as possible in the hands of the RNG.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I guess it would depend on what effects we're talking about here. But as is now, you don't *need* the stun to proc to be useful but when it does, it's nice. You don't *need* the kb/kd to proc but when it doesn't, you frown. (and aside, you probably won't care if the immobilize procs or not)
What effects would be appropriate to this suggestion for MA anyway?
-Stun, yeah perhaps in at least 1 extra attack
-KB/KD/KU of course and definitly KD in EC
-Immobilize I guess
-Hold perhaps if aimed at the gut could fit in Crane
-Sleep, might fit in Cobra as a sort of 'judo chop' unconscious slap
-resist would be cool in Cobra
-Dmg could be spread in alot of the attacks as a kind of 'martial arts bout' attacking the enemy's attacks
-ToHit I think it'd be fitting in DT as you're kind of ducking to make the attack and slipping up the foe unexpectedly
-slow movement could also be spread through various attacks
For the debuffs, if -dmg and -slow is spread through all the attacks, you'll probably have the chance of debuffing one or the other if not both so long as you're attacking the enemy. The -ToHit would fit well in DT because, so long as 1 foe is debuffed that's more chances of you not being hit ontop of them possibly being on their rear end. The -res in cobra, so long as you're using it often to mitigate damage, there's the possibility it'll increase the damage of your other attacks over time.
So yeah, you wouldn't rely on them procing but would be there to enhance your survival if you're using the attacks properly.
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And herein lies the difference between something you can rely on and something you can't. Thunder Kick's stun is so insignificantly unlikely to help, that you play as though it doesn't exist and if it does trigger, you just shrug your shoulders. The knockback on Crane Kick and Dragon's Tail, on the other hand, is consistently more reliable, so you grow to expect it and rely on it to trigger. You may or may not NEED it, but you EXPECT it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I guess it would depend on what effects we're talking about here. But as is now, you don't *need* the stun to proc to be useful but when it does, it's nice. You don't *need* the kb/kd to proc but when it doesn't, you frown. (and aside, you probably won't care if the immobilize procs or not)
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Basically, that's what it comes down to for me - getting a feel for what my character can do and a feel for what I can expect to achieve when I use my powers. Wildcard powers that could do a lot or do almost nothing at all do NOT sit well with me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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-DMG may or may not fly since Scrappers have access to Shield Defense with Against All Odds. The value for the -DMG in the MA attacks would probably wind up being so low as to not even be noticeable.
I wouldn't mind seeing a -Recovery effect added to the set. Thematically, you are hitting something hard enough to knock the wind out of them (except Machines). -Recovery would be unique among the Scrapper primaries as well.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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Electrical Melee has a chance for -recovery in most of its attacks. Count me in for adding a chance for knockdown to more MA attacks as well, though.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
I wouldn't mind seeing a -Recovery effect added to the set. Thematically, you are hitting something hard enough to knock the wind out of them (except Machines). -Recovery would be unique among the Scrapper primaries as well.
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I think of those as more END drains than a true Recovery debuff... but I guess they can be called the same thing in general terms.|
Originally Posted by Godpants
Electrical Melee has a chance for -recovery in most of its attacks. Count me in for adding a chance for knockdown to more MA attacks as well, though.
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What I was suggesting is more of a true Recovery Debuff where the target is unable to recover endurance for a given period of time... kind of like a ST version of Lingering Radiation, except it prevents endurance recovery only.
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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If they're going to add something like that, I am less worried about it being unique, and more worried about it being effective. I had the same idea you did. I thought about it. I discarded it. Why? because -rec is useless without -end effects, and both of them are useless unless present in mass quantities.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
I wouldn't mind seeing a -Recovery effect added to the set. Thematically, you are hitting something hard enough to knock the wind out of them (except Machines). -Recovery would be unique among the Scrapper primaries as well.
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End draining just isn't a meaningful difference maker in this game unless you work for it, and even then it's not terribly useful. To see it added as a token gesture to a melee set would just disappoint me.
Knockups, Blinding, Placate, these are varying degrees of unusual and would provide more use to me in practical terms than garden variety mezzes or debuffs that I wouldn't see consistently.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Electrical Melee actually drains end and causes -recovery.
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Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
I think of those as more END drains than a true Recovery debuff... but I guess they can be called the same thing in general terms.
What I was suggesting is more of a true Recovery Debuff where the target is unable to recover endurance for a given period of time... kind of like a ST version of Lingering Radiation, except it prevents endurance recovery only. |
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The problem is simply put, we're running out of effects its ever likely we'll be able to get that work predictably.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And herein lies the difference between something you can rely on and something you can't. Thunder Kick's stun is so insignificantly unlikely to help, that you play as though it doesn't exist and if it does trigger, you just shrug your shoulders. The knockback on Crane Kick and Dragon's Tail, on the other hand, is consistently more reliable, so you grow to expect it and rely on it to trigger. You may or may not NEED it, but you EXPECT it.
Basically, that's what it comes down to for me - getting a feel for what my character can do and a feel for what I can expect to achieve when I use my powers. Wildcard powers that could do a lot or do almost nothing at all do NOT sit well with me. |
The singular pervasive effect I would add to MA if it was my singular decision would be -DMG. Something within a binary order of magnitude of -7.5% dmg stackable, with CS approaching -15% dmg (bearing in mind that Dark Melee's attacks have a -5.625% tohit debuff which translates on most critters to a -11.25% incoming damage reduction, and ToF has twice the debuff strength). I'd put an escape hatch for AVs, reducing the debuff to -1.5% on AV-class critters through requires clauses (because AVs generally have very high resistance to tohit debuffs: this adds comparable protection**).
My suspicion is that the strongest opposition from the devs would come from three angles: 1) its too defendery, and they don't want to allow Dark Melee to provide precedent, and 2) its too strong for a stacking effect, again in defiance of the Dark Melee precedent, and 3) that sort of effect is not in the set of effects the devs intended for the MA concept (its not a "secondary effects" in this context).
The fencelines for what MA *can't* have, or rather are unlikely to convince the right people to grant, appear to be extremely tight.
I will say, as an aside, that while I agree with the notion in general that character performance should be based less on random chance and more on skill, you really don't get to assert that very far in this game, because this game is explicitly designed to lower the skill curve and replace many skill-oriented activities with game mechanics. That's why we have a defense attribute, and can't dodge attacks manually. That's why we don't have a blocking mechanic. That's why we have auto-targeting. It would be more interesting if you could decide, as a player, to attempt to debuff your target's accuracy with a carefully targeted strike with thunder kick, and have that effect occur if you executed the attack in just the right way, but there's no real way to do that in City of Heroes. The closest thing to that are combos which are problematic in this context and also currently intended to be unique to Dual Blades.
** Reducing from 7.5 to 1.5 is an 80% reduction. However, damage debuffs would also be susceptible to damage resistances, making the average AV likely to resist more than 80% of the damage debuff, and more inline with the net resistance to tohit debuffing that AVs possess
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Yes, I am aware. I had said I was thinking of doing a variant of -Recovery to make it unique among scrapper primaries.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Electrical Melee actually drains end and causes -recovery.
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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As I said above being unique isn't as important as being effective. We're trying to make the set more effective in this discussion, and adding -rec simply for the sake of "it hasn't been added anywhere else yet" does nothing for survivability or combat effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by Shard_Warrior
Yes, I am aware. I had said I was thinking of doing a variant of -Recovery to make it unique among scrapper primaries.
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If END mechanics for NPCs were vastly different than what they are, and they ended up actually using up their END, then maybe you'd be onto something. As it is, you're advocating a noneffective change.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Fair enough. It is just a suggestion and an idea, which people are allowed to post here. The "effectiveness" of any proposed secondary effect (ie. -DMG) is questionable since it depends on a number of factors. Does it stack? If yes, to what degree? What powers is it attached to?|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
As I said above being unique isn't as important as being effective. We're trying to make the set more effective in this discussion, and adding -rec simply for the sake of "it hasn't been added anywhere else yet" does nothing for survivability or combat effectiveness.
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It may be problematic for MA to carry -DMG since SD comes with a -DMG toggle that would stack with the secondary -DMG from MA. I can't say for sure, of course, but I would imagine this is something the devs would take into account.
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| As it is, you're advocating a noneffective change. |
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
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Honestly, I see this as a good thing however. One of the the advantages of a low proc chance effect is that you can increase the potency of the effect (i.e. duration and magnitude/debuff size) without having a huge effect upon balance because it's a grab bag. How would you feel if Thunder Kick's chance to stun was pulled down from 10% to 5% but the magnitude was increased to 4, so that it could actually stun a boss. It makes it much more crit-like (because you can actually stun a boss if you get lucky) and doesn't really pull it out of balance because it's not reliable, much less common to get it.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And herein lies the difference between something you can rely on and something you can't. Thunder Kick's stun is so insignificantly unlikely to help, that you play as though it doesn't exist and if it does trigger, you just shrug your shoulders. The knockback on Crane Kick and Dragon's Tail, on the other hand, is consistently more reliable, so you grow to expect it and rely on it to trigger. You may or may not NEED it, but you EXPECT it.
Basically, that's what it comes down to for me - getting a feel for what my character can do and a feel for what I can expect to achieve when I use my powers. Wildcard powers that could do a lot or do almost nothing at all do NOT sit well with me. |
If the entire set was redone so that every attack has 2-3 low chance but high powered secondary effects, I think it would be awesome. Rather than trying to get a series of procs, such as with Energy Melee's stuns, you would be trying for one of any of a number of higher power procs that don't stack. It's the same thing that happens with Scrapper crits: they're not common, not really expected, but they hit like a truck. If the MA attacks each had a grab bag of secondary effects that followed the same mentality, you'd have something interesting and varied. You'd also then be allowed to bring in such esoteric effects as -rech, -dam, -regen, among others, without allowing the set to become reliant on them. If there are 2-3 5% chance effects of high potency per attack, you'd notice them when they happened ("I stunned that boss! Nice.") while simultaneously remaining roughly balanced (it would take roughly 7 attacks if they each had 2 procs before you'd have roughly a 50% chance to have seen a proc; if the magnitude were roughly equal to the stacked effects of 7 attacks from a single debuff type style power set, you'd have a rough sense of balance). It would be more variable, but it would add some flair to the set ("Why is the boss dealing so little damage?" "That was me. Thunder Kick proc'd the -dam debuff" "Who just confused the boss?" "That was me again. Thunder Kick.").
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An effect that would be meaningful is EnduranceDiscount debuff. In other words, debuff the critters so their powers burn more endurance than normal (the opposite of Conserve Power's effects). It means they actually do tap out their endurance and can run out, and it also makes actual endurance debuff and recovery debuff more effective besides.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
As I said above being unique isn't as important as being effective. We're trying to make the set more effective in this discussion, and adding -rec simply for the sake of "it hasn't been added anywhere else yet" does nothing for survivability or combat effectiveness.
If END mechanics for NPCs were vastly different than what they are, and they ended up actually using up their END, then maybe you'd be onto something. As it is, you're advocating a noneffective change. |
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Would that really do much? Enemies are only burning a scant few points of endurance for any of their powers. I realize it would make end drain more effective by functionally increasing the tiny range in which enemies are incapable of attacking because they've got no endurance, but a sliver doubled in size is still pretty much a sliver.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
An effect that would be meaningful is EnduranceDiscount debuff. In other words, debuff the critters so their powers burn more endurance than normal (the opposite of Conserve Power's effects). It means they actually do tap out their endurance and can run out, and it also makes actual endurance debuff and recovery debuff more effective besides.
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Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."