Add more damage to Cobra Strike

Lol, if you want to be intentionally dense I will point that out to you every time you decide to put your fingers to a keyboard.

You.
Are.
Dense.

Another angle to look at it for dense posters trying to win an internet argument with flawed logic:
Katana thematically lowers defense because it cuts you up with a sharp weapon ontop of its secondary effects.
Dark melee thematically lowers ToHit because you're using dark powers to blind foes ontop of its secondary effects.
Dual Blades thematically does combos because you're using 2 weapons in tandem ontop of its secondary effects.
Martial Arts thematically does nothing because its a natural punching set ontop of its secondary effects.


I already pointed out that the set offers no particular advantage or synergy with secondary sets. And for its troubles doesn't get an outlier specialty or effective well roundedness. The set is just there. It's in the middle of everything so there's room to improve it.

How about you provide some clear data and evidence that the set is perfectly in-line with all the other melee sets on the ATs its available? Show us that there is no room for improvement.



I said the same thing. The set is fine and it works at defeating foes. But so did Dark Melee but they added more dmg to Siphon Life ontop of frontloading Midnight Grasp's DoT. Stalker Dual Blades worked fine defeating enemies but then they increased the range of One Thousand Cuts.

Just because a set has nothing wrong with it doesn't mean it *can't* be changed and just because MA is mediocre at a few things doesn't mean it shouldn't do something great.

Gotta love noobs.

If anyone is dense, it's you. You've no idea what you're talking about.

-Def is one of the secondary effects of the Katana set. You're trying to say Katana lowers defense, then lowers additional defense as a secondary effect. Your statement is totally not true.

-ToHit is one of the secondary effects of Dark Melee, You're trying to say Dark Melee lowers ToHit, then lowers ToHit even more as a secondary effect. Your statement is totally not true.

Again, assuming you have taken the powers necessary to create the combo and assuming you actually land them in sequence. This is not a 100% reliable effect.

This is readily available in the scrapper forums here and on other sites on the internet.

Martial Arts also received animation changes a long time ago that made it work much better.

It is your opinion the set is mediocre.

Technically, it gets slightly higher accuracy (the same as weapon sets get) and slightly higher crit chances.

One Thousand Cuts had its range increased because it didn't happen when the rest of the melee attacks had their ranges increased. It was more of a bug fix than a balance tweak.

Well considering Buildup and Calling the Wolf are *NOT* attacks, you have somewhat of a point. Katana's secondary effect is -def on all its attacks except Divine Avalanche.

True but then I'm starting to see a pattern that self-buff powers do not carry the set's secondary effect.

Uh oh, you did it now. You opened yourself to the wrath of the god of claws, BillZBubba! But I'll not summon such a power upon your pitiful self (it'd be a waste of his time anyway). You can search any guide for claws and it will comment on the secondary effect of claws being that after all the powers are put through a formula to balance their damage, endurance costs and recharge times, claws has an additional formula applied that shaves off some of its END cost and recharge.

Since any secondary effect must 'land' to take effect, this is moot.

Come back when you get a real argument and not quibbles over semantics. THIS! IS! THE! INTERNET!
*kicks Miss_Freeze out of the thread*

I'm starting to see a pattern that you've no idea what you're talking about.

So, when a Claws attack lands, it adds +Rech and +End? Endurance cost and recharge rates are an entirely different subject from secondary effects. Your previous post said Claws has +Rech and +End as a secondary effect of the set. This is wrong. That is what the comment was on.

This is true but it's not a secondary effect (as that would mean that Katana has 2 set-wide secondary effects). And the higher crit rate is a start but it's only on 1 attack. Seeing as other tier 9s also have +crit chances (again, Katana/BS as well as Claws on Eviscerate) MA only follows in line with the other sets but takes its spot behind as it's only ST while the others are cones.

No, I mean the range of 1kcuts was hyperextended to longer than normal melee range. This was an addition to Stalker DBs meant to be a special feature of the set.

So did Claws, Katana, Broadsword and several other sets. Spines is most likely next on the list.

Try again.

Lol, at least I admit when I don't know something. You however...

I said claw attacks get recharge and endurance discounts. This means their powers cost less endurance and recharge faster for the damage they do. That is all and it is an effect unique to that set.

Neither are your purported recharge rate and end discounts Claws has

Show us the data that says MA is behind other sets and we'll believe you. You're saying that it is "behind" other sets, so prove that it is. Show the data. Show the evidence.

HUGE difference between flip flopping animations within the sets and complete overhauls, like MA received.

Waiting for your data to support your claim.

When rebalanced, Katana/BS, Axe, War mace and the like didn't have any animations switched. They were adjusted like MA. To put it simply, what MA got is what a lot of sets got and more sets will get.

Waiting for your data claiming MA is perfectly balanced. But just for some foreshadowing, even if you prove MA DPS is right there perfectly in line with those other sets, that only proves it's just 'middle of the road' because while it does DPS balanced with MA, Katana/BS also get the mega +def power of parry, DM gets the mega -ToHit power of ToF plus the well rounded heal of Siphon Life, Dual Blades get the 100% KD of sweep, etc. etc.

You'd have to prove MA is *better* than those sets.

I'm not the one claiming that MA needs a damage boost or anything else. I'm saying the set is fine as you. The onus is on YOU to provide evidence the set needs work. I won't do your work for you.

Go ask your mommy to wipe your butt for you, we won't do it for you.

But you're the one claiming said damage boost would unbalance it "just because". Show some data to the same effect. Show the class that nothing could be added or we'll have an old skool Energy Melee on our hands.

Aren't you saying the inverse? MA needs a damage boost "just because"?

The devs are not going to even begin to think about changing a set unless they have solid data. If you believe it needs more damage, then provide the data and they'll be happy to look at it for you.

The burden is on you to prove it's broken, not everyone else to prove it isn't.

That would require work on the part of those making the suggestion, which is why 99.9999% of the suggestions are summarily ignored.

I wonder sometimes how many devs these people think we have working on this game. We get about a dozen threads per day from someone whining about something, but providing no work to justify anything. It is as if they just whine at the devs and they will do all of the work (apparently in their infinite amount of time as villain hating demi-gods).

It doesn't work that way. Even amongst things the various devs want to implement, time to get certain projects done between the various teams is tough to get. You need to really do all of the legwork to even get an idea considered because time is sparse. You do not make "simple solutions" and then ask folks to prove that sets are indeed balanced correctly........particularly when you have no idea yourself what that term even means!

Going into such a thread whining about things that are unilateral across ATs (such as stun magnitude) is just going to get you ignored and/or laughed at. If you want a suggestion taken seriously, you can't have such errors in your work.

And the tough guy attitudes.....LOLworthy.

Control powers in Control sets often have debuff efects in addition to the damage and control effects, control powers in Melee and Ranged Attack sets usually do not. Screech is an outlier in Sonic attack as Shockwave and Siren's Song do not debuff resistance in addition to their control effects. Melee and Ranged Attack sets with offensive debuffs (Sonic Attack, Rad Blast) and Claws usually have one or more attack powers with a high chance for or guaranteed control effect, for example Shockwave (Sonic), Cosmic Burst, and Shockwave (Claws). Katana and Broadsword get 2 attacks with knock effects in addition to their defense debuffs and a self defense buff power. That's pretty much how these things are done.

These two statements don't mesh. You can't claim that MA's inherent accuracy bonus is not a secondary effect and then claim that Claws' discounts are. Either both are or neither is.

Ah, right, that's the one you're talking about. My apologies, you are right.

One who properly uses logic knows that the burden of proof lies on those accusing the status quo. You're the one attempting to affect a change, so you need to prove that such change is necessary. We don't have to prove that the status quo shouldn't change; that's the base assumption. If you don't properly demonstrate the necessity of your suggestion, then it's not going to be implemented.

Heroes, Villains ♦ Reviews ♦ Retrospect

Pretty much, yes. But replace 'damage boost' with 'something'. I never really thought MA *needed* more damage but it definitely needs something to make the set shine.

But the data you're pining for would only prove what the set can do damage wise. Sets were not balanced by the secondary effects they offer. Castle even said so himself. So parsing and spreadsheets with attack chains and DPS calculations would basically prove that MA does, rounded up/down, no more or less damage than your basic ST melee set.

NeverDark, you seem to be acquainted with the numbers. So why in the *HECK* did you not step in when some idiot poster claimed that Claws had no discounts on their END/rech when you in fact knew they did? Or did you rather enjoy me twisting in the wind trying to explain it in simple words to the ignorant?

As for why the accuracy bonus isn't a secondary effect: Because Battle Axe, Katana, Broadsword, War Mace and Assault Rifle all have that same base accuracy which is around 3-5% higher than normal attacks. If you want to consider it a secondary effect then it only raises the bar higher with some sets having 2 secondary effects.

Now Archery on the other hand, that is an inherent accuracy bonus. Somewhere in the realm of 8-12% or something for blasters and higher for Defenders.

I suppose it depends what is needed to prove. I've read several threads about MA on the scrapper forums. Those guys seem pretty knowledgeable about numbers but I don't believe they've put their finger on just what issue MA has. It's just a common perception among them that something is missing.

I'm not a numbers guy so I wouldn't be able to get deep in the DPS formulas but I doubt it would do much good anyway because MA doesn't lack ST dmg. It does what it does and that's about it. Now if MA could dish out some cheap, fast and high ST dmg that eclipsed all others, there would be no complaint because that would be MA's niche. But it doesn't and it probably shouldn't but if it did that would be sweet.

But as is, Claws can do what MA does but cheaper with more AoE; Katana can do it safer; EM can do it slower but with more control; DM can do it with more utility. MA has no niche, no specialty, no theme that sets it apart. That is what needs to be addressed. Or can you tell me what is special about MA?

It's a game Talen! Some stranger makes some weak insult at you and you smack him across the face. It's logic! I thought you would understand, of all people!

...but seriously, you see the poster that those physical threats were directed at? I think your sympathy is better placed elsewhere.

Just to clarify (because people so easily forget to read people's posts and therefore misconstrue their stance on a subject...often times horribly), I didn't suggest the dmg increase to Cobra Strike. I don't even *like* the power and even said I don't take it. Even if the dmg on it was quadrupled (that's still less than Storm kick) I wouldn't bother with it. There is just no solid way to stack it within the set. You can do EC but the duration on that stun is rather pointless (like 4sec, 1 of which is while you're still flipping in the air) and I'm not wasting slots on EC's stun when I can get it to do more damage, cheaper and more often. You might as well not even say stack it with Thunder Kick. That 10% chance is a joke. Might as well slot brawl with a proc and get the same stun END free.

I'm the one to bring up the Power Boost effect added to Focus Chi. That wouldn't improve the damage of the set at all, just make the effects of the set more noticeable and provide good synergy with the secondary set.

I'm pretty sure that part happened while I was at work.

Archery always has a 15.5% bonus, regardless of AT (5% for being a weapon set, 10% as a set-defining bonus). I'd certainly like to see MA get the same, but I don't think it's really necessary.

Technically, MA's niche is its slightly higher accuracy and its wide range of control potential. How useful that is can be debated, but it is there.

If it didn't affect anything except the controls, I could probably be convinced for it. But if it affects the full range that regular Power Boost does, I'd be against it.

That's the type of thinking that ended up getting suggestions moved to the For Fun section and partially written off...

This is subjective and depends on power selection, slotting, enhancements and player skill.

Personally, I find it a very fun set to play. That's what I personally find special about it.

Also, as NeverDark pointed out:

Whether or not you find it "good" is subjective and a matter of preference. Some find it weak, others find it to work very well for their play style.

The only sympathy I feel is for the people (yourself included) who are unintelligent enough to have a discussion in an adult, rational manner.

Again, if you have an idea to improve a set, provide the data for it. Include the DPS figures, take into consideration secondary effects and other variables the devs would want to see in order to even begin to consider the idea.

Claws has a single PBAoE (Spin). How does that equate to "more AoE" than Dragon's Tail?

Katana has Divine Avalanche (BS has Parry) which boost Melee defense ONLY. Divine Avalanche offers no defense against ranged attacks or AoE. Even with a defense bonus to melee, an NPC still has a chance to attack and kill you. MA's stuns can totally incapacitate the same target to where they are totally helpless against you. "Safer" is entirely subjective.

I want to step in and say that that's not true in the slightest. Martial Arts was NOT adjusted, it was very much almost entirely reworked, in the process having a FULL animation switched. Almost every attack had its animation time cut more than in half, and not just by shortening the "rooted" timer, but by altering the animations, themselves. Easy example - Crane Kick used to go like this: stance -> wait -> kick -> wait -> recover. Right now, it has no waiting or stance holding, it just goes "stancekickrecover." Even easier example - Storm Kick used to be a flurry of kicks to the face, ending up with a big kick at the end. And it was LOOONG. Longer than Shadow Maul. Right now, it's a jumping spin kick that's incredibly fast.

Now, you mention Katana, but as Katana/Broadsword, which leads me to believe you're thinking of the wrong changes. Back at Launch, Katana shared the EXACT SAME animations as Broadsword. It even had the same power names. I3 came out with a complete reworking of Katana from the ground up, with new animations for ALL attacks. This shortened attack times significantly and gave the set its unique look, but still left it with draw times written in.

The changes you're mentioning weren't anywhere on the level of the Martial Arts changes. All that happened was that the "rooted" time of attacks was altered to extract the draw time from them, meaning that they were faster if your weapon was out and exactly the same if you had to draw it. First of all, animations did not have to change for this, only timers. Second of all, this only affected draw times. Nothing else.

Granted, there are a few exceptions that work to your advantage. Back when draw was being removed from Battle Axe, Beheader and Chop actually switched places. Intitially, BABs just flipped the animations to give the smaller power a faster swing, but then switch the names, as well, to keep them consistent with the animations. That wasn't exactly a big change, but it was a change. Claws were reworked several times, and they DID trade animations. Originally, Swipe had the same animation as Barb Strike (I think, the multiple fast slices) and Strike had the "baseball pitch" attack from alternate Eagles Claws/Stun. Claws WAS reworked. War Mace was seen as underperforming, so BABs fiddled around with its animation times, removing draw, and at some point Clobber became a high-damage attack, but lost most of its stun.

All that is to say that, yes, things CAN change and have changed, but not nearly as much as it seems. And while there is precedent of control-heavy powers being given more damage, it has come at the cost of their hard control.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Claws has one PBAoE, and 2 Melee cones. Since the change in base melee range, Cones are no longer a joke in terms of AoE. Not to mention that Shockwave has a 30ft range, not just 7.

So 3 AoEs total, opposed to MA's one.

Divine Avalanche and Parry boost Melee and Lethal defense. Typed damage defenses don't matter what position the attack comes from, and most bullet attacks as well as a lot of spines, knives, arrows, and other ranged attacks.

Please learn how powersets work.

Which does not equate to PBAoE. A cone is a cone. An AoE is an AoE.

Yes, please do.