Buff Trick Arrows!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-10-30 15:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I have to agree with both sides a bit here. I agree largely with Knight about TA on a troller.
TA is very strong in connection with many controller primaries. Earth shines because I can cast Quicksand, Volcanic Gasses, Disruption Arrow, OSA. From around a corner and take out an entire spawn! With no alpha taken.
On a defender/corruptor Trick Arrow is meh. Now that Trick Arrow and Traps are side by side on both ATs, they are learning what MMs already knew. Traps is just flat out better. I agree whole heartedly that Traps would be broken a troller along with Dark Miasma.
I do agree that Trick Arrow should be better. Rad trumps it in pure debuffage with a heal and AM. If debuff is all TA does then it should be the best at it. However I think that its more a fact of the other sets being so INSANE that makes TA look so terrible. The other sets get away with more diversity because they aren't pigeon holed by a concept. Let us be honest there is only so much disbelief you can do with a bow. Healing Arrows!!
The math is there. I will concede that I have no clue as to what would make TA better without breaking it on Controllers more so then it now. I leave that to people like Luminara and Trickshooter.
On a side note!! curse you defenders!! Give us traps and we'll let you buff TA!! We'll even throw in a better special power, then vigilance!!
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Your disruption does KD? Hax!
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grumpums
You guys are doing it wrong, apparently.
2 Location AoE KD powers (Disruption Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow). |
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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I'm not an expert on thread scanning but I'm not certain I can buy the claim that no one has talked about Mind/TA or Illusion/TA in nearly six months. Partly because I have talked about. It's possible that I was wrong when I said that Trick Arrow is most commonly associated with Mind and Illusion on the boards; perhaps it was just stuck anecdotally in my mind because it was a board suggestion that created my Illusion/TA Controller (mothballed until he can be rerolled Illusion/Traps). Still, I think your scan of posts is somewhat misleading, as most of them are people asking "Will this combination work?" not exclaiming "Trick Arrow is so amazing!"| That goes all the way back to August, 18th of 2009 and not a single post title mentioning Ill/TA or Mind/TA. |
Just for kicks, I decided to do a search for "Trick Arrow" on the Corruptor boards, and pulled up these posts from the past few months:
- Assault Rifle / Trick Arrow ?
- Archery/Trick Arrow Q.
- Arch/TA Advice needed
- Archery/Trick Arrow Corruptor
- Trick Arrow Yay!
- Arch/TA corrs! SQUEE!!
- This work? (First sentence: "I'm leveling up this Archery/TA..."
Also, rather pointedly:
- PGA in trick arrow - why is the damage debuff so low?
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| Your contention that OSA doesn't combine well with any other control is likewise bogus. |
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| Even "being fair" and removing those threads from the list there are no threads that pair /TA with either Ill or mind going back 5 months. "Most" threads that offer up combinations for Ill reccomend /rad, /storm, or /FF mainly due to the synergies with PA or the potential for +rech from set bonuses or IOs. |
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| ...a spectularly hideous TF that was lengthened to almost 3 times the amount of time it should have taken by a very poorly played Grav/FF. |
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That's sorta why Trick Arrow needs a buff, its not popular because its just not balanced with the other Defender Primaries. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
This is a completely different argument than what was being discussed. The argument is not "Trick Arrow is super popular on Illusion Controllers," it's that "of Controllers playing Trick Arrow, Illusion is a more common primary." These are different claims. What you've actually just provided is evidence that Trick Arrow isn't a popular Controller secondary (which I would agree with), which calls into question the statement made by someone earlier that TA is "nearly overpowered" on Controllers.
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We have said Trick Arrow works better for Controllers and might be "passable" because it really does add value because of hold stacking and being able to create Containment. That does not mean that Trick Arrow is an overpowered Controller secondary.
Because Trick Arrow does some novel things and adds some control, it has more benefit to Controllers than to Defenders, Corrupters, and Masterminds.
Trick Arrow isn't popular because its not up to snuff. If there weren't so many Green Arrow wanna be's out there, you probably wouldn't have any.
Basically Trick Arrow is a great way to self gimp yourself and make CoX more difficult. I'm sure this does attract some small cadre of masocicsts to it, but it does not help them pull their wait in teams.
I like the Trick Arrow mechanics or I wouldn't be putting this much effort into getting them buffed. I like a mostly Debuff set. I like that I have to be proactive. But, I do want to have the tools to do my job and support a team.
I enjoy my TA/ice, necro/TA, and ninja/TA characters. They're effective in-game both solo and on teams, regardless of the intelligent critiques (as well as the histrionics) posted about TA in this thread.
This thread also inspired me to make an ice/TA (I've never seen one either, Knight), and he's too young to know how well he'll work out yet. Looking at the possibilities, my sense is that mobs won't be moving around very much, nor will they be doing very much. With acid arrow and disruption dropping mob resistance by 30% quite regularly, nor will they be around very long. And every third spawn, or thereabouts, mobs will suffer essentially nuke-level damage when I ignite OSA.
Again, I'm definitely not opposed to a buff to the TA set. On that note, 15 seconds of -regen in EMP arrow, given its 300 second recharge, seems like a token effort to put it into the set; I have no idea what the person who set that length of time was thinking, nor why they chose that particular arrow in which to add -regen.
For Defenders pick the very best secondary for TA. Its a matter of opinion but from there then ask yourself assuming this secondary rank the primaries in terms of effectiveness. Is TA in your top 3? Top 5?
TA for defenders needs help, the power numbers seem to show this, the popularity of the set seems to show this, and the number of stalled out deleted toons seem to show this. Can a brother get a witness?
Trickshooter,
Did you get a chance to think about this? I really like the idea and think it would be really interesting mechanic. By itself it creates advantages and disadvantages.
The fact that you could "kill" the debuff early is its own bad side of the coin, but it would be offset with...
a new debuff to enemy ToHit. And it would also allow for better absorbing of the Alpha Strike.
I also think it goes with the theme of the set that the Trick Arrow player does something to distract his enemies in order to pull off more of his Tricks.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
Trickshooter I would endorse all your changes. If Trick Arrow is the only Debuff only set, it should be the best Debuff set and I'm not convinced at all that it is.
I would also suggest looking at SpiritFox's idea of Disruption Arrow creating an unmoving pet that does AoE -ToHit, - Resistances, and Taunt. I think interesting things could be done with this and it would help Trick Arrow tank an Alpha Strike when solo. I think it would have interesting play applications and be nuanced. |
I had thought about it. It seems really cool, and would definitely be fun.
But given the current recharge time on Disruption Arrow, it could be incredibly overpowered. With just SOs you could almost have it out at all times, and with a little more recharge, you could even have two out for awhile. It would make you and your teammates very, very safe.
To balance that out, it would probably have to have it's recharge increased significantly, like double or more, and I'd hate to see that happen to a power that is already (annoyingly) a large part of what TA needs to function at a level close to the other sets.
Maybe if it were a very weak taunt, as in the taunt duration was shorter than the "activation period" of Disruption Arrow (5 seconds, I think), I could see it happening. And it would definitely not be enhanceable. Just something that would last long enough to turn the attention of enemies for a second or two. But even that might cost us the autohit nature of the power, and might keep it limited to 10 enemies (even Omega Maneuver only hits 10).
Just as a heads-up, in the way I understand the game, things that taunt that can't be attacked direct the aggro towards their owner. People aren't going to stand there trying to shoot a pseudopet that can't be killed, and if it can be killed, it will be.
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Omega Maneuvers holds aggro pretty well and can't be killed (mag100 Untouchable at all times). Disruption Arrow could hold aggro with a taunting aura if it was at least made targettable.
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Originally Posted by Talen_Lee
Just as a heads-up, in the way I understand the game, things that taunt that can't be attacked direct the aggro towards their owner. People aren't going to stand there trying to shoot a pseudopet that can't be killed, and if it can be killed, it will be.
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I think they are saying it would just be like an immoveable, single instance Illusion Army guy that does no direct damage but does have a Taunt aura so that enemies tend to attack it.
And I have to say I really, REALLY like the idea.
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Ah, yes, you're quite right, I'd forgotten about making the pet phased.
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Originally Posted by Trickshooter
Omega Maneuvers holds aggro pretty well and can't be killed (mag100 Untouchable at all times). Disruption Arrow could hold aggro with a taunting aura if it was at least made targettable.
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I was contemplating the Disruption Arrow would be attackable like the Acid Mortar. I think that would balance out the fact that it recharges fast. Since most likely your enemies would be killing the Disruption Arrow pretty quickly.
I was contemplating it having decent defense and the minus to hit that you had suggested. So that it would function like a stable forcefield generator, too.
But I figured that because of the taunt, the Disruption Arrow wouldn't last long in a fight. Thus it would be good at taking the aggro and disruption, but that Trick wouldn't last too long.
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-Regen in Acid Arrow, made unstackable and rank biased would be good. It's the AV fights that can take too long but not a massive amount, perhaps just lowering the fight duration by 30% would be about right.
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
The best suggestion, and most of them are good, is the regen debuff.
There are just a few buff sets with it that are always in demand for GMs and AVs, and giving that to TA would at least give it that niche while providing more sets with that ability for more flexible teams. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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It's one of my favourite TA powers, sure you can sometimes get its effects from someone else but I prefer having the tools for myself.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Already addressed elsewhere, but this power sucks. The only nice thing I can say about it is that the graphic is cool. I'm sure there's a worse Tier 1 power somewhere, but I'm unable to think of one offhand.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Masterminds well..I do have a Ninja/TA who is alright, not as strong as my Necro/Dark but I would accept that some combos are easier than others and it can't be helped.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Trick Arrow is not working for:
Defenders Masterminds |
With Defenders, TA does work and pass as a Defender, there is no way most people, I am hedging bets here, play with the support of a TA to a TAs strengths, but it does have it's strengths. It's quite special which is why I nonchalantly said earlier in other words that its not for keymashers.
However some particular buffs might help. I do believe that defender TA should not only scale differently to controller TA etc but should have some figures such as recharge times autonomous to other ATs.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Well TA passes as a defender by default not really performance. Still it seems even its supporters admit that it could use a little love. Not asking to make it into the new FOTM just make it not the red-headed stepchild of defender sets.
Its a fun set. If they make it decent a lot more people will play it and enjoy it. Like you said it just needs a little love.
Its a fun concept. I'm willing to wager its slightly more popular in RP populations than the general population were it is more popular than in the Min/maxers. I like the visuals of the set by and large. I like the fact its not a "heal me" or a "Speed boost me" set.
I would like the set a little more with a quiver option (belt or back.) Still I think a little boost around the edges for defenders especially would cause warm fuzzies all around the city.
My apologies if this has been addressed... but due to a character concept I decided to make a TA/A defender which lead me to read up on them and obviously I found this thread.
What I'm gathering from this and a few other threads I've read is that TA is weak for a primary but good/decent/passable/whatever as a secondary.
Nobody seems to be arguing EXCEPT those that are saying if the suggested buffs are given it will make it too powerful as a secondary especially for controllers.
Why can't changes be made to it as a primary leaving it alone as a secondary.
For example the way I understand it they increased the recharge time on a couple of powers for radiation blast as a blaster primary leaving it alone as a secondary, this was to compensate for the higher amount of damage it does as a blaster primary. Could the same not be done in this case?
One of the things I've seen repeated is a lower recharge time on a couple powers. Couldn't that be done to just the set as a primary?
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
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It takes far less dev time (which is usually in short supply) to just apply AT modifiers to the power sets rather than tweak them individually also once tweaked subsequent patches can break the powers or odd bugs can crop up.|
Originally Posted by Radubadu
My apologies if this has been addressed... but due to a character concept I decided to make a TA/A defender which lead me to read up on them and obviously I found this thread.
What I'm gathering from this and a few other threads I've read is that TA is weak for a primary but good/decent/passable/whatever as a secondary. Nobody seems to be arguing EXCEPT those that are saying if the suggested buffs are given it will make it too powerful as a secondary especially for controllers. Why can't changes be made to it as a primary leaving it alone as a secondary. For example the way I understand it they increased the recharge time on a couple of powers for radiation blast as a blaster primary leaving it alone as a secondary, this was to compensate for the higher amount of damage it does as a blaster primary. Could the same not be done in this case? One of the things I've seen repeated is a lower recharge time on a couple powers. Couldn't that be done to just the set as a primary? |
The Devs tend to avoid doing that for those (and other) reasons.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
IMO Flash Arrow is the only power that needs to be buffed, when you compare this set to Rad or Dark( also primarily debuff/ control sets), two huge difference are
-No healing, and to be honest here, it wouldn't make much sense here
-TA has a very super weak acc debuff in flash arrow, which is closer to smoke grenade than it is to either RI or DN.
I think a decent argument could be made to give Flash Arrow a DN or RI Acc Debuff component
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While I can appreciate the additional effort it would take they've obviously done it before and from all that's been posted it obviously needs to be done again, at least according to anyone with experience in the power set. I have yet to see a post that says "TA/ is fine as is". Even the people that enjoy it say that they do so in spite of it's flaws.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
It takes far less dev time (which is usually in short supply) to just apply AT modifiers to the power sets rather than tweak them individually also once tweaked subsequent patches can break the powers or odd bugs can crop up.
The Devs tend to avoid doing that for those (and other) reasons. |
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
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Exactly. I returned to the game after a long layoff and have been playing a A/TA Corruptor, and while I enjoy the look and feel of the powers, and find the class fun, I'm amazed at how underpowered TA is. Essentially, this character is several times weaker than the weakest character I ever played, and I played a lot of them. Missions at +1 level, 1x villains are actually a challenge. (In comparison, when I team with my friend who runs a Mastermind, we run the missions at +1 level, 8x villains and they're a breeze, and would be for him even if I just went afk at the start area for the whole mission. My MM friend views my TA Corruptor as one of his weaker pets).|
Originally Posted by Radubadu
I have yet to see a post that says "TA/ is fine as is". Even the people that enjoy it say that they do so in spite of it's flaws.
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Part of it, I think is that I'm playing a Corruptor, which seems especially poor with TA. I've read countless posts about Acid Arrow being a set defining power, and when I got it at 20 I can't tell you how underwhelmed I was, perhaps because the effects aren't too strong for corruptors. Sometimes I don't bother to use it and I kill just as fast without it. Part of this may be the class penalty, but spending an action just to get a 15% damage boost on subsequent attacks doesn't seem all that fantastic to me, even with the defense debuff as well. I mean, it's not terrible, but a dominant set power? No.
Don't get me wrong - I'm having fun: it's an enjoyable challenge doing things like circling a group of enemies so they keep turning around to run back through glue arrow while slowly whittling them away, or using explosive arrow to knock them back into the glue patch just when they're getting close, or a hundred other dumb tactics designed to compensate for the weakness of the set, but is it any good, in comparison to other power sets? No, it's pretty terrible right now.
What it really needs is a power which allows serious ranged mitigation, through a powerful accuracy, damage, or recharge debuff. Barring that, if they aren't going to put any time into new powers, which seems likely, it just needs a serious power boost of all its powers across the board, whether it's reducing recharge times, endurance costs, or boosting debuff effects (probably the best option).
Or, they could continue to do nothing, using the old catch 22 that since TA sucks, few people play it, and if few people play it, it's not much of a priority, right?
A decent slow and rather weak -recharge AoE is not usually considered control in the context of this discussion.
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