Buff Trick Arrows!

Trickshooter I would endorse all your changes. If Trick Arrow is the only Debuff only set, it should be the best Debuff set and I'm not convinced at all that it is.

I would also suggest looking at SpiritFox's idea of Disruption Arrow creating an unmoving pet that does AoE -ToHit, - Resistances, and Taunt. I think interesting things could be done with this and it would help Trick Arrow tank an Alpha Strike when solo. I think it would have interesting play applications and be nuanced.

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Originally Posted by spiritfox Disruption arrow - I think that this should stack on some -tohit and -perception, and have a shorter cooldown. It would make sense for a disruption arrow to actually...disrupt...something. Loud *** noises make attention spans shorter and annoy the crap out of people so they have a harder time focusing on anything, and what they do focus on they're not very good at paying attention to it. In balance terms, you could make the thing have no aggro component, and that lets the set stack a ton of -tohit and -perception before the alpha is taken, and the -res component wouldn't hurt either. All you have to do is add "Emits sounds too high for humans to hear" in the description and make the thing drive warwolves crazy and you've got a winner. The other option is to give this thing a taunt aura. Now wouldn't THAT be an interesting toy. Give it the ability to take about double the damage of a seeker drone, and a taunt aura, -res, and -perception. Makes enemies run in close to angrily try to stomp the thing to oblivion. Give it a decent range on that taunt aura, and you've got an alpha taker, or a handy positioning tool. I've always wanted a power that could pull enemies towards one point, this is a close second.

TA is a debuff, control, and direct damage set.

1. TA debuffs, and everybody who plays the set knows this.
2. TA has a single target hold (not the best ST hold, based on stats) and an AOE hold on long recharge that offers better stats than the AOE hold in most control primaries. If also offers AOE knockdown through OSA and an AOE sleep for minions through PGA (admittedly only as a 50% chance, mag 2, and short duration). It also has a single target immobilize in its tier one power.
3. TA offers direct AOE damage through OSA (when it lights, which is clearly an important implementation issue).

TA is not a controller primary, but several types of controls that you typically find in a controller primary are present. Obviously, the devs expected TA players to be using the set's controls and labeling TA a "Debuff only set" is inappropriate. In fact, TA is at or near the upper end in each of three categories (debuffs, controls, and direct damage), when compared against the mean of defender primaries.

@Luminara: While I apologize for mistaking Trick Arrow's accuracy stats with those of Archery and thus I am at least partially wrong, Red Tomax does list Entangling Arrow as having higher than 1.0 accuracy which I guess is where the misunderstanding for the set as a whole comes from.

I hope I don't sound too harsh in my replies below. I just have a pretty strong opinion about TA and its shortcomings. Assorted replies below.

How much better would Poison Gas Arrow be ... if instead of causing Sleep (knockout gas) ... it instead caused Fear (tear gas?). The Sleep on PGA of such limited utility as to be almost useless, even when soloing, since Sleep is so easily broken. Fear however ... lasts ... and even if it's a "leaky" mezz, in the sense that mobs still get to shoot back at you while Feared, it does at least offer SOME *attack* mitigation.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

To Oedipus Tex:

There's nothing overly harsh about your reply. You were courteous and you focused on the issues, from my perspective. Where we may disagree is in how comparisons are best made across powersets.

It is better to compare sets on a holistic basis. Comparing powers in isolation (one power at a time or a group of powers) from others in a set tends to lead to an incomplete and misleading analysis. TA is a debuff / control / direct damage set. In exchange for providing no ally buffs and no healing, it provides a trifecta of other benefits that, taken as a package, are unique among defender primaries.

TA offers more damage than rad and dark, against which TA is routinely compared for debuffs, more control than probably any other defender primary (dark arguably comes close because of fearsome stare and its pet; still, one AOE fear power is not equivalent to TA's three AOE controls put together), and more debuffs (in numbers and in the numbers) than most defender primaries.

As an example from your post of how it can be misleading to compare individual powers across sets, instead of thinking in holistic terms, putting freezing rain on a 2 minute timer would just about eviscerate much of the appeal of storm, especially for teams. In contrast, having a more or less "every spawn" OSA that functions much like ice slick and that also does high damage would essentially turn TA into a control primary mislabeled as a defender primary, with a lot of damage added to the mix.

I believe TA would be more fun to play if it received some buffs and that there is room to boost the trifecta of debuffs / control / damage further without overpowering the set. I also believe it will be a challenge to buff it without having to subsequently nerf it, mostly because of how close TA already is to being a control primary. On a related note, the current near equivalence of TA to a control primary leaves relatively little room for recharge to be the focus of buffs.

My own experiences are that spawns melt faster with a good TA player along and the occasional problem that comes up with over-aggro from additional spawns and such things simply and quietly goes away. Rightly or wrongly, and of course I might be proven wrong when the devs do finally buff TA, I believe that -regen is the missing ingredient that would indirectly help to shine a light on the already considerable strengths of the set. Like a lot of other sets that were underappreciated for extended periods of time (ie: rad and storm), TA needs to be played more to be appreciated more; as long as TA remains a likely candidate for the "pity spot" on a variety of upper-level content, it will probably continue to be under-appreciated.

You guys are doing it wrong, apparently.

My Plant/TA has so many different way to immobilize, hold, mez, and debuff enemies that it's hard NOT to be useful.

Primarily, it's a lock down beast with 2 ST holds, 2 Immobilize powers (plus Carrion Creepers), 2 AoE holds, and 2 Location AoE KD powers (Disruption Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow). Oh yeah, AND Seeds of Confusion! The only enemies who give me trouble to lock down are EBs and AVs, and even those I can immobilize.

THEN add in Trick Arrow's debuffs to Damage, Resistance, Movement Speed, and Recharge Speed.

There's no doubt in my mind that Trick Arrow is primarily a support set for weakening and incapacitating enemies rather than speeding up the rate at which they're killed, but that doesn't mean it's a useless set. And it DOES give burst AoE Damage with Oil Slick Arrow.

You're right. It can't solo as well as a Fire/Kin can, and it isn't game breaking. It's still plenty useful, though.

I think the set is fine as is.

I really don't want to hear any controllers opinions, at least in if they are saying that Trick Arrow is working. I'll concede:

Trick Arrow maybe working for:

Controllers

Trick Arrow is not working for:

Defenders
Corrupters
Masterminds

Why? Controllers can stack immobolizes and holds. Simple as that.

The holds and immobilizes cannot be stacked in the other Archetypes for the most part. The effects for a Defender or Corrupter are too weak to give the type of mitigation that you expect from Defenders.

Single Target Holds and Immobilizes get more and more deminished the larger the team. Since larger teams have larger spawns. IE its more useful for solo or small team play which is not what Defenders are supposed to be focused on.

The damage that Trick Arrow gets is really kinda minimal when you think about the fact that the recharge on Oil Slick is 180 seconds. Three minutes is a long time.

The thing is if you read the Controller boards you'll see that the two sets that TA is usually associated with are Mind and Illusion. Why? Not because the powers stack, but because they add things those power sets lack. Taking TA on a Controller for stacked mezz is 90% pointless because:

- The single target immob in all Control sets that have it is already mag 4, which will immob most bosses anyway, on top of doing damage and a debuff superior to Entangling Arrow.

- The need to hold bosses instantly is overstated. Controller single target holds already recharge in 8 seconds, 4 seconds once slotted, and the Controller won't have charged in with a hold at all, but with an AoE mezz. Instantly holding bosses is far more important on ATs like Blasters, Corruptors or Defenders who lack good defenses that are up every fight.

- Oil Slick Arrow doesn't stack with controls in any meaningful way. In fact bugs in pet AI make them run away from the slick once it's on fire.

In fairness, the Best Secondary for Earth thread offers many more suggestions for storm and rad than TA and pretty much runs the gamut of all the secondaries. To my recollection, Gravity seems to be the primary most offered up with TA, but that could very well be because Gravity is seen to lack a great deal of control of its own.