Buff Trick Arrows!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-10-30 15:26 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Okay, I'll assume you're talking about Defender numbers so I'll go with that.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Well going from keys 1 - 9 isn't a lot...There is the potential to survive really well with a Tanker that's only got SOs in it. A TAs powers can stack to a Tankers build. Flash Arrow is like weave in a way, if you were at 36-39% defense on your own then FA has possibly effectively softcapped you. Poison Gas 31ish% Dam debuff can stack with Icetanks CE 14%ish Dam debuff. There is a little something for everyone.
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You cite Flash as being "like Weave" and being able to offer about 6-9% -ToHit, and Poison Gas for -31. To be specific, Flash can slot up to just under -10% (-9.9%) and Poison Gas is -31.25%.
Now first off, those are debuffs and are going to be resisted by enemy level, rank, and inherent resistances. So as soon as you start fighting +1 enemies or non-minions, that -9.9% is going to fall. Even before the resistances, that's a really low amount. UNSLOTTED Ice Shield gives +15% DEF which isn't going to be "resisted" until you fight +6 enemies, or rare enemies with ToHit (which works against -ToHit too).
Second of all, Darkest Night does -37.5% DMG and -18.75% ToHit, in one power. Radiation Infection+Enervating Filed is -31.25% ToHit and -25% DMG, as well as offensive debuffs. Both Dark and Radiation can outdo the defensive contributions of TA with the same number of powers or less. This is ignoring the fact that they have other defensive powers like heals, resistance, and other debuffs.
TA's defensive powers just aren't powerful enough to rely on to keep a team alive, unless they're powerful enough that they don't need it to begin with.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Dispari, TAKE A BOW!
/em golf clap
Thats the point I've been struggling to make. As a defender primary, the debuffs are out performed by powers from other primaries that offer more diverse functionalality. Granted these powers are some of the gems of those other primaries but it seems that TA is specializing soley in Debuff without being the shinning star of (or even a great) Debuffing set(s).
Sure when TA pours on every one of its powers into a mob its an impresive array of effects but recharge times being what they are....
One might argue that TA defenders need to rely more heavily on their secondary for additional effects than other sets in order to be effective.
Pretty much.
It all boils down to ideas of set design in the end.
Rad (and Dark) were designed back when it was thought that having one or two real OMG powers in an otherwise kinda meh set was good. TA was designed with a "the sum is greater than the parts" idea in mind.
I don't think TA will ever get the OMG level powers that some would like, but with numerous small changes spread through the set (like the myriad Trick's suggested), it can probably be "fixed" in more subtle ways.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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What do you consider to be the OMG powers in rad and dark? I mean, I think there are a number of good powers in both (actually, practically all of the powers in both are good) but nothing that I would consider OMG, although dark servant is pretty nice. It seems to me that TA is the one that is weak early on in exchange for the OMG power that is Oil Slick Arrow, which has never seemed that fair a trade to me. |
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Pretty much.
It all boils down to ideas of set design in the end. Rad (and Dark) were designed back when it was thought that having one or two real OMG powers in an otherwise kinda meh set was good. TA was designed with a "the sum is greater than the parts" idea in mind. I don't think TA will ever get the OMG level powers that some would like, but with numerous small changes spread through the set (like the myriad Trick's suggested), it can probably be "fixed" in more subtle ways. |
Rad has RI, AM, EF, LR and EM Pulse as all very nice, effective powers. The rez is even pretty darned good, just not as globally usefull as the other powers - heck even choking cloud is fairly usefull on, say, a fire/rad controller. Pretty much the only questionable power is the heal - and it's not bad, just not great. In dark you have twilight grasp (arguably one of the better heals in the game), tar patch, darkest night, howling twilight, shadow fall, fearsome stare and dark servant as all being extremely usefull and reasonably powerfull - petrifying gaze is not even a bad hold, at least as good as ice arrow even if you get it later. The powers I would consider 'good' in trick arrow are glue arrow, acid arrow, disruption arrow, OSL and EMP Arrow and only when you add in those last two does the set even begin to stand up to rad and AM - and it still falls a litle short.
EDIT: Fixed typoes
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Perhaps "OMG Powers" was a misleading term... how about "cornerstone powers" or "must haves"? Basically, the powers you "must" take if you pick the set.|
Originally Posted by EricHough
What do you consider to be the OMG powers in rad and dark? I mean, I think there are a number of good powers in both (actually, practically all of the powers in both are good) but nothing that I would consider OMG, although dark servant is pretty nice. It seems to me that TA is the one that is weak early on in exchange for the OMG power that is Oil Slick Arrow, which has never seemed that fair a trade to me.
Rad has RI, AM, EF, LR and EM Pulse as all very nice, effective powers. The rez is even pretty darned good, just not as globally usefull as the other powers - heck even choking cloud is fairly usefull on, say, a fire/rad controller. Pretty much the only questionable power is the heal - and it's not bad, just not great. In dark you have twilight grasp (arguably one of the better heals in the game), tar patch, darkest night, howling twilight, shadow fall, fearsome stare and dark servant as all being extremely usefull and reasonably powerfull - petrifying gaze is not even a bad hold, at least as good as ice arrow even if you get it later. The powers I would consider 'good' in trick arrow are glue arrow, acid arrow, disruption arrow, OSL and EMP Arrow and only when you add in those last two does the set even begin to stand up to rad and AM - and it still falls a litle short. EDIT: Fixed typoes |
For Rad, RI and EF, without a doubt. They're why you take the set. If you don't take them, pretty much everyone would agree that you're gimped. They define the set. Without them, it does not work.
A little tougher on Dark, though. DN is definitely one of them, but the rest of its power is spread throughout the set well enough that it could still function without it.
But if we look at TA: What are the must haves? There's lots of good ones, but no single one that completely dominates.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Actually, that is kind of my point though - there IS a single power in TA that dominates the set, Oil Slick Arrow, call it the 5 star power in the set (when compared to powers in other sets as well as in TA). That is clearly the best, dominant power in the set. Then you have glue arrow and acid arrow as good, but not great powers (3 star powers) mostly due to either low radius (acid arrow) or lack of effects other than movement slow. Entangling arrow, ice arrow and disruption arrow are all ok powers but not spectacular (2 stars). EMP arrow is at least a 4 star but it's on to long a recharge for me to count it as anything but an emergency button rather than a mainstay|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
But if we look at TA: What are the must haves? There's lots of good ones, but no single one that completely dominates.
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On the other hand I would rate RI, EF and AM as all 4 star powers, LR and Mutation as 3 star and everything else in the set at least a 2 star. Thats a lot of really good powers when compared to TA. Dark does nearly as well - Dark servant is at least a 5 star; tar patch, darkest night, howling twilight and fearsome stare all rate in a 4 stars in my book and shadowfall at 3. The only real 2 star power is petrifying gaze and the only loser power is black hole.
The odd thing I see in your statement is that it seems almost the reverse to me - it's not that TA spreads out the good stuff its that except for OSL there is so little really good stuff in TA that you have to take everything just to get some use out of the set. The other two sets have plenty of 'good' stuff spread out but the difference is that there is enough good stuff you don't have to take all of it just to be effective.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Actually, I think that the -ToHit in Flash Arrow might be unresistable. I'm not certain, but I thought it was something that had come up before. Also, technically, -ToHit is a little different than +Defense in that +Defense always has a type associated with it, and -ToHit covers any and all attacks. For example, Ice Shields won't protect from Mental attacks but -ToHit will (I think). I'm not singing a love song for Flash Arrow, believe me. But I think it is slightly better than what the numbers first seem like. |
You cite Flash as being "like Weave" and being able to offer about 6-9% -ToHit, and Poison Gas for -31. To be specific, Flash can slot up to just under -10% (-9.9%) and Poison Gas is -31.25%. Now first off, those are debuffs and are going to be resisted by enemy level, rank, and inherent resistances. So as soon as you start fighting +1 enemies or non-minions, that -9.9% is going to fall. Even before the resistances, that's a really low amount. UNSLOTTED Ice Shield gives +15% DEF which isn't going to be "resisted" until you fight +6 enemies, or rare enemies with ToHit (which works against -ToHit too). |
I would like the power to come with a short, massive -Range component though, say 5 seconds of -90% range. And it should light Oil Slicks. And a lot of other things before I'd consider TA as good as the other Defender sets.
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Can you come up with a solution as to how it can light it without adding a damage component?
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Something I'm wondering is why Trick Arrow was not given the ability to light its own Oil Slick. Even though it doesn't do damage, in theory Flash Arrow should be able to light it.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Check your sources on what powers/debuff's are resistible and what are irresistible.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Okay, I'll assume you're talking about Defender numbers so I'll go with that.
You cite Flash as being "like Weave" and being able to offer about 6-9% -ToHit, and Poison Gas for -31. To be specific, Flash can slot up to just under -10% (-9.9%) and Poison Gas is -31.25%. Now first off, those are debuffs and are going to be resisted by enemy level, rank, and inherent resistances. So as soon as you start fighting +1 enemies or non-minions, that -9.9% is going to fall. Even before the resistances, that's a really low amount. UNSLOTTED Ice Shield gives +15% DEF which isn't going to be "resisted" until you fight +6 enemies, or rare enemies with ToHit (which works against -ToHit too). Second of all, Darkest Night does -37.5% DMG and -18.75% ToHit, in one power. Radiation Infection+Enervating Filed is -31.25% ToHit and -25% DMG, as well as offensive debuffs. Both Dark and Radiation can outdo the defensive contributions of TA with the same number of powers or less. This is ignoring the fact that they have other defensive powers like heals, resistance, and other debuffs. TA's defensive powers just aren't powerful enough to rely on to keep a team alive, unless they're powerful enough that they don't need it to begin with. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That's fine; I wasn't even thinking of that so I'll give it that bonus, since I overlooked it.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Check your sources on what powers/debuff's are resistible and what are irresistible.
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However, please don't handwave or ignore the fact that Dark does more -DMG and about three times the -ToHit, in one power, than what you showed Trick Arrow as being able to do to support a team, in addition to having about six or seven other powers that are defensive in nature and allow the Defender to keep the team alive. Or that Rad has FIVE times the -ToHit in addition to all the defensive powers it has.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Unresistable effects are only unaffected by an entities rank or resistances they get through powers, but they aren't immune to level differences. So that big impact that Flash Arrow supposedly has against AVs goes away once they start to be higher than +0 (ie. Any AV in any of the 45+ TF/SFs).
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Check your sources on what powers/debuff's are resistible and what are irresistible.
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I love your ideas Trickshooter (and would support almost any way to make TA (and Archery) better).
I think Trick Archery is a prime example of why some sets shouldn't be transferred over to another AT's set. TA had awesome recharge debuffing...until they noticed that was way too much for a Controller if they had TA as a secondary....*nerf* I remember doing a test arena match on the test server against a sgmate. I hit him with all my powers (that had -recharge) and his Brawl took 8 seconds to recharge! :P
TA should have stayed a Defender primary when it was originally launched...but that's just my opinion.
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I can. Make it a Molotov Cocktail (arrow) with the same stats as OSA then there's no worry about targetting it or about it being a dud. It becomes the same as any other patch type power in the game just using a flying (or flaming) arrow graphic. The devs can remove the clunky lighting "feature" from it and allow it to be used every spawn.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Can you come up with a solution as to how it can light it without adding a damage component?
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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In theory, give it a singular point of energy and/or fire damage that does not create aggro. A single point is useless for actually hurting real mobs but would would be enough to register the fact that the damage exists. Or even just make a special case to acknowledge Flash Arrow.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Can you come up with a solution as to how it can light it without adding a damage component?
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BTW, will Trip Mine, Timer Miner, and Detonation from /Traps light an Oil Slick Arrow?
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I think that when some sets get ported over to over sets that there is stuff that get toned down in what they can do over time but why one AT can't look at more different figures I don't know.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
TA had awesome recharge debuffing...until they noticed that was way too much for a Controller if they had TA as a secondary....*nerf*
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I can't see why PGA has such a long recharge, in some teams you have it up every second group, which isn't good. I think that's a pace and survivability problem right there, they can keep the duration and end cost the same, no stackability, just lower the recharge.
As it is with surviving the +lvl AVs, I don't think they scale up that much, and with a TA you can look to work against what AVs don't do. I as a player playing around other TAs do not see the teams survivability entirely the trick archers responsibility, the set requires a different set of dynamics than what people are used to more than a change in the set. If with every defender you can have the same run in and mash keys mentality then thats not good. Ideally for me, 10 different defenders should, not always mean, make maneuvers with 8 different characteristics plausible. With american football you must have several ways of getting the pigskin into the touch down area. I expect the same with this game and this game delivers.
Flash Arrow lighting Oil slick is interesting, my characters have to have some logic to them, which is why I need to know how it'll work.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Zamuel:
The "bomb" powers all do some amount of fire damage, so they should be able to light the oil slick, bugs allowing.
New Dawn:
Let me make sure I understand your points. I agree that TA may take more effort or finesse than some other defender sets, but I wouldn't expect everyone else on a team to have to work around it. Please correct me if I misunderstood.
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If on a defender who debuffs via a toggle power you wouldn't expect other team members to drop the anchor last if it means they can have the survivability needed to proceed better. I would expect team mates to work with eachother rather than against eachother.
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Originally Posted by Godpants
New Dawn:
Let me make sure I understand your points. I agree that TA may take more effort or finesse than some other defender sets, but I wouldn't expect everyone else on a team to have to work around it. Please correct me if I misunderstood. |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I don't know the background about this but this just doesn't sound right. There is a cap on -Recharge of -75%. At least one Control power, Shiver, will already floor the recharge of a +0 or +1 enemy instantly.| TA had awesome recharge debuffing...until they noticed that was way too much for a Controller if they had TA as a secondary....*nerf* |
On the single target side, there is more -Recharge in the Controller version of Cold Domination's Infridigate than the total of all -Recharge available in Trick Arrow. That one power has a base of -87.5% Recharge. This is a level 1 power by the way, and it also does -30% Damage and -25% Defense. This one power can almost beat out 4 powers from Trick Arrow combined. Once we throw Benumb on top of that, with it's -50% Damage, -93.125% mezz training, Trick Arrow might as well not even show up to the AV fight.
On the AoE side, Snow Storm has -62.5% Recharge and Sleet/Freezing Rain each have -40%, again enough to floor typical enemies. Trick Arrow gets -20%. That's not even enough to increase the recharge of a 10 second recharge power by 3 seconds. For the sets that can floor recharge, the same power recharges in 40 seconds.
A fair number of posters have expressed concern about the ability of TA players to take alpha on teams. I'm not convinced that every set of every AT needs to be a good alpha taker to be a good contributor on teams. Still, if the devs wanted to improve the ability of TA players to take alpha, they could put in a very short duration -to hit debuff into poison gas arrow (ie: an unenhanceable -15% for 6 seconds, which would be stackable with flash arrow). In logical terms, if poison will muck up your damage by up to 30% and put a lot of mobs to sleep, how can your aim be completely unaffected? After you get poisoned, wouldn't you need a few seconds to get your senses in full working order again? In gameplay terms, a hefty and short-term -to hit debuff would help TA players take alpha, and provide little help beyond that. That change alone would probably be of considerable help to TA players, both teamed and solo.
I'm wholly in favor of adding -regen to a TA power. It would be thematically appropriate, the utility of the TA set would improve significantly with that change (but not in a game-breaking way), and those who like TA are highly likely to welcome its addition to the set. On a related note, sets sometimes get discriminated against when teams are formed for much of the higher level content if they can't slow down AV/GM regeneration, or at least offer tasty buffs. Disruption arrow, acid arrow, and poison gas arrow would all be suitable candidates for -regen powers. Of these three arrows, disruption arrow would be the most interesting choice because adding -regen to it would present some gameplay challenges and opportunities, depending on the situation.
I think that the -Regen component idea may add some utility to the set (and make it TA defenders less a social outcast) but I still believe that is not quite the issue with the set. For TA to provide a significant contribution to a typical team it generally needs to unleash most of its resources every mob. The problem is that due to recharge times the typical archer cant. If the powers for a TA defender had more significant debuffs then PGA, DA, AA could be staggered every other mob but as their individual effects are not as significant in isolation each power warrants being used on any mob that presents a threat.
The reasonable options for buffing TA Defenders would be either reduce the recharge times or raise the effectiveness of the Debuffs. I understand that game balance issues may prevent raising much of the effectiveness. When TAs get all their powers in on a single mob the array of debuffs is impressive. Dark, Cold, and Rad all have other tasks to do so their net debuffing has to packed into a few powers. But there should be some pay off for TA to forgo all the extra functionality those other sets offer. Currently a TA defender can make every 4th or 5th mob a done deal. With PGA, DA, AA, Flash, OSA and Emp arrow. This however is not equal to making 100% of the mobs 20% ~25% easier which is what many of the more diverse sets do in their primaries.
The best suggestion, and most of them are good, is the regen debuff.
There are just a few buff sets with it that are always in demand for GMs and AVs, and giving that to TA would at least give it that niche while providing more sets with that ability for more flexible teams.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
The -Regen though is something that really helps in a limited number of situations. This is what TA as a primary is suffering from. Lots of powers with marginal abilities and longish recharge times.
In fights with AV's and GM's A TA defender has a res debuff and a to hit debuff. Its on an opponent who will be hanging out for a while. Where TA falls noticeably short (again for defenders) is not in this scenario but on missions where the life expectancy of the mobs is less than the recharge time of the debuffing arrows.
AM is a great buff and a competent team can get through many mobs in one application. With TA there is no "carry over" from one mob to the next. Thats why Debuffs need significantly faster recharges than buffs on the other end of the equation. What happens to the TA is that the more competent the team is the less effective the debuffs are. Because a good team is on to the next mob before the timers reset, Trick arrow has a lot of wasted effect even with ideal placement. Worse, the TA defender doesnt provide much in mitigation. TA has a wide selection of mediocre tools with a net effect of being able to contribute to mediocre teams. TA (again as a primary) doesnt have the tools to help poor teams overcome and cant use its tools consistently (fast) enough to help the good ones be better.
While some of this problem is inherent in the nature of Debuffs, recharge times and the gross effect of the powers could be modified to allow Trick Arrow to be a primary thats not only distinctive in appearance but effective in application.
Everything else considered, Go carts are fun as long as race cars arent an option.
I think shortening the recharge times, especially on the first four powers, may be the key. It would make a difference between it and Traps in that Traps has buffs mixed in with debuffs but has inherantly longer recharge while Trick Arrow has faster recharge and naturally higher accuracy but is debuff only.
I'm also thinking that in addition to giving Flash Arrow the ability to light Oil Slick Arrow, it should have a low mag stacking Confuse. It would make sense that a blinded opponent might mistakenly attack their teammate instead of their enemy. This would help round out the ability to defend the team at lower levels.
In an oddity, I actually think Ice Arrow shouldn't have -Fly. There's already two powers with -Fly and while I'm not 100% sure about PvE, I know that there's a few powers in PvP that can only be used while grounded so this would be a way to deny that if you catch them in the air.
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No.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
Trick Arrow has... naturally higher accuracy
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| There's already two powers with -Fly |
Point to remember: In the same way Resistance debuff is akin to a Damage buff, Damage debuff is, effectively, the same as Resistance.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize