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That's . . . not how I understood it.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, it says that Praetorians start out neither Heroes nor Villains, but at some point they decide to go to Primal Earth, and apparently THEN they can choose a side. So it really depends on how long this takes. If you can skip the tutorial and walk through a portal at level 1 into Atlas Park, then yes, you can create a Brute as a Hero from level 1. You just have to do a little travelling.
On the other hand, there is some question as to what the devs mean by "choose if [you] want to be considered a Hero or Villain". We don't know for sure that a Praetorian who walks into Paragon City is EXACTLY like a pure Hero, accessing Wentworths and getting missions from one of the five departments in City Hall. If Praetorians have to wait for level 10 or 20 before they can enter Paragon City, they might be like Villiains who have switched over and become Heroes, having to pick up with a new set of Contacts somehow. Likewise, we don't really know how Loyalists and Resistance fit into this. Positron called the Loyalists the villains and Resistance the heroes, but supposedly this is independent of which side you can choose outside of Preatoria. So does it effect which Market you use? I noticed in the video it said that you choose Loyalist or Resistance before you even leave the tutorial, so apparently it is impossible to not have a "side". Yet, it says here there are "points within their stories" where you can switch sides, so apparently you can keep switching between the Resistance and Praetorian Guard as often as you like. |
This bullet point: This system is usable by any character over X level (X is a number which has yet to be disclosed). It is not "just for Praetorians".
Tells me that the level at which you choose to be this or that ISN'T going to be anywhere near level 1.
My point being specifically sure you can switch as much as you want, but the PURE Loyalists and PURE Resistance (as in born in Praetoria) won't be able to go to Paragon or Rogue Isles till level something or other, when they DECLARE that they are a hero or villain. From the wording above it sounds like that declaration CAN'T happen at level 1, since that would lock you into a side from the get go. However as you pointed out a loyalist or resistance can become a paragon hero, paragon villain, rogue isles villain or rogue isles hero.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That's . . . not how I understood it.
This bullet point: This system is usable by any character over X level (X is a number which has yet to be disclosed). It is not "just for Praetorians". |
- Praetorians do not use the normal GR system, but have points within their stories where they can choose "Loyalist (aka Villain)" or "Resistance (aka Hero)"
- When Praetorians leave Praetoria for Primal Earth, they choose if they want to be considered a Hero or a Villain, and are plopped into Paragon or the Rogue Isles.
And (from "Post Going Rogue Info Here" thread) - Once they reach level 20 (or before?), they can choose to go to Paragon City and be a Hero, or go to the Rogue Isles and be a villain, even if they chose to side with the opposite faction in Praetoria (my bolded point)
This seems to suggest that Loyalists/Resistance is NOT Vigilantes/Rogues. It's a totally different and independent system which is, yes, unique to Praetorians. Posi says in the first bullet that Praetorians don't use the usual side shifting mechanism. Whether he means they don't use it at first, or don't use it until they leave Praetoria and become a Hero or Villain isn't clear. But until they do, they already are neither a Hero nor a Villain, they are already in the grey area. All the normal system would do is force them to choose a side, and then work to get back to the neutral state again.
Actually, I look at the Loyalist/Resistance storylines as being more like Origins. It determines which Contacts a Preatorian gets and what missions he is assigned. But he can keep switching sides as much as he want, which will probably effect his path through the missions. Either way, though, he's still a Praetorian, he doesn't become either a Hero or Villain until he decides to do that by going beyond his home missions and Contacts.
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Even if you go Resistance all the way till you have to decide where to go outside of Praetoria, you can still choose to go to Rogue Isles and become a Villain. And same goes for the opposite. You're probably right about what goes on before that happens though. I like that the decisions you make seem to have some bearing on what comes next.
| Actually, I look at the Loyalist/Resistance storylines as being more like Origins. It determines which Contacts a Preatorian gets and what missions he is assigned. But he can keep switching sides as much as he want, which will probably effect his path through the missions. Either way, though, he's still a Praetorian, he doesn't become either a Hero or Villain until he decides to do that by going beyond his home missions and Contacts. |
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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It would be quite a twist if it turns out Praetoria has a market interface that is a combined/merged market.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Does anyone else think that this makes even LESS sense than merging the real world markets and have Praetoria have its own market?
I love this game. I love 90% of what it offers and how it functions, but this split-market idiocy has to go away. |
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
I cant believe I'm missing the haloween event and most of this stuff... I've been on 'vacation' with like almost no internet connection until Nov 4th.
GR got me pretty excited. The only thing that didnt get me excited was the market bit. I'm still very surprised and confused at them not merging (if that is the case).
I'm going to make a deduction based on the info we have now and sat being a vigilante seems to be the sweet spot. You get to use the abundant blue side market, and do contents for both sides. I just hope you can take your villain throught he long journey of Villain>Rogue>Hero>vigilante as opposed to Villain>Rogue>Hero>Rogue.
Depending on further details, thats exactly where I would park all my characters.
On the Dual Pistol ammo types (standard, cryo, incendiary, chemical)... Is that something you choose at character creation, or that you can switch whenever you want to?
Also, if you're on standard ammo, and you switch to cryo (assuming you can switch on the fly), does it change all of your Dual Pistol attack powers to using cryo?
Also, from the video clip of the keynote address when they were showing off Dual Pistols... what was with the doves? (Yes, I get the reference, I've seen enough gun-fu movies... but was that just something the Devs put in to the demonstration to be silly, or can we expect random dove appearances when using certain powers in Dual Pistols?)
I think they said you can change those on the fly.
And I think it just changes the damage type and adds additional effects to the powers. So the whole power tray doesn't change.
And yes, the pistol doves were just a joke they put in the HeroCon presentation.
All I want to know is when you get to lvl 20 in Praetoria can you stay there?
I heard something about high end content, anyone want to clarify?
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Dual Pistols has a "Reload" power that cycles it though all the ammo types. Presumably all the powers change.|
Originally Posted by Kierthos
On the Dual Pistol ammo types (standard, cryo, incendiary, chemical)... Is that something you choose at character creation, or that you can switch whenever you want to? Also, if you're on standard ammo, and you switch to cryo (assuming you can switch on the fly), does it change all of your Dual Pistol attack powers to using cryo?
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Originally Posted by Kierthos
Also, from the video clip of the keynote address when they were showing off Dual Pistols... what was with the doves? (Yes, I get the reference, I've seen enough gun-fu movies... but was that just something the Devs put in to the demonstration to be silly, or can we expect random dove appearances when using certain powers in Dual Pistols?)
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Interesting.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
This seems to suggest that Loyalists/Resistance is NOT Vigilantes/Rogues. It's a totally different and independent system which is, yes, unique to Praetorians. Posi says in the first bullet that Praetorians don't use the usual side shifting mechanism. Whether he means they don't use it at first, or don't use it until they leave Praetoria and become a Hero or Villain isn't clear. But until they do, they already are neither a Hero nor a Villain, they are already in the grey area. All the normal system would do is force them to choose a side, and then work to get back to the neutral state again. Actually, I look at the Loyalist/Resistance storylines as being more like Origins. It determines which Contacts a Preatorian gets and what missions he is assigned. But he can keep switching sides as much as he want, which will probably effect his path through the missions. Either way, though, he's still a Praetorian, he doesn't become either a Hero or Villain until he decides to do that by going beyond his home missions and Contacts. |
Where did you get that last point from? It doesn't look like it's in Posi's frist clarification point.
Anyway it will be interesting to see how they handle this.
My gut however is telling me that you won't be able to make a lvl 1 brute appear in Paragon City or a lvl 1 hero appear in the Rogue Isles, simply because it takes some amount of content to finally shift your "morality meter" to the appropriate faction. The devs have been saying choosing/switching to a side won't be a quick thing. Being able to do that with the Praetorian work around wouldn't make sense with those statements.
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Here. Some of this is speculation, or at least a particular interpretation of the HeroCon info, but for the most part it seems on target. It's also been corrected to reflect Posi's clarifications. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Where did you get that last point from? It doesn't look like it's in Posi's frist clarification point.
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| My gut however is telling me that you won't be able to make a lvl 1 brute appear in Paragon City or a lvl 1 hero appear in the Rogue Isles, simply because it takes some amount of content to finally shift your "morality meter" to the appropriate faction. The devs have been saying choosing/switching to a side won't be a quick thing. Being able to do that with the Praetorian work around wouldn't make sense with those statements. |
The "morality meter" is for EXISTING characters, who have already been levelling in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles for some time, and have achieved a given level on that side. Praetorians are new characters, of either side's AT, which can choose their "morality" right from the beginning, although at first that's apparently limited to only siding with the Loyalists or with the Resistance. Why have Praetoria as a start area at all, when they have to go through exactly the same process as a Villain starting in the Rogue Isles and coming over to Paragon City. I would think the better concept would be for Praetorians to start "halfway", already being Rogues or Vigilantes so they don't have as far to "shift" as a "true" Hero or Villain.
Of course, it doesn't look like it works exactly like that, but still, I would expect Praetorians to be able to go to Primal Earth about the time Heroes and Villains can go to Praetoria. Keep in mind that a level 1 Brute is NOT a level 1 VILLAIN. If a Praetorian chooses to be a Hero then he is a Hero, even with a Brute, Stalker, Mastermind, Dominator or Corruptor. It may take a little extra time, but that doesn't mean it has to take as much time as starting from a Villain.
I always did know GR was going to blag my head...
As said by Posi or Hero 1 during the Con, all new characters start in Praetoria, they are neither Heroic or Villainous, the choices they make will shift them to one side or the other.
You do a mission where you have to rescue a suspected member of the resistance, once rescued you have the option to let them quietly slip away or to turn them in the the authorities.
The RP'ing aspects for GR alone are huge and I can't wait to dig in.
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And my response to that is: "So?" The devs are the ones opening pandora's box here. It's completely natural for people to question some cases of what, so far, seem like extremely arbitrary limitations on interactions when you cross sides. Sure, we don't know everything yet - it sounds like the devs haven't decided everything yet. But some of what the devs have preliminarily decided doesn't sit well.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
I don't see how else they can keep any meaning to 'hero' and 'villain', though. If rogue/vigilante effectively opened up access to the whole game, then from a gameplay perspective there'd be no reason to be anything else, unless you have absolutely zero interest in experiencing the content on one side.
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Let's look at this from a roleplaying standpoint for a moment. If you're playing a vigilante, why would most of the rogue isles contacts even care? A huge number of them are hiring mercenaries, and a huge number of arcs are villain-on-villain violence. A contact hires a vigilante to wipe out an Arachnos base or a cell of Malta? Rock on?
On the flip side, are most Paragon contacts going to care if the person who wanders up to them is more of a dark night (not in the Batman sense) if they need someone to stop the Vahz from poisoning the city, or the Rikti from reinvading? Anyone with a "Rogue" designation presumably has completed enough sensitivity training to have a reputation for saving lives or performing other good deeds at least some of the time. I think only the most morally uptight of contacts would object to their help in a crisis.
A reasonable question in this is how do you get introduced to these contacts. But we actually already have a mechanism for that - police scanners and RI newspapers. If a Rogue runs around answering police S.O.S. calls, or a Vigilante runs around taking contracts from RI brokers, the contacts in that zone would hear about it and have a chance to decide this person is someone up their ally.
The very nature of introducing "Going Rogue" is to blur the existing lines between the games. That's unavoidable and, in may ways, highly desirable. Leaving in little barriers that trip people trying to take that bluring to fairly natural conclusions is more frustrating than useful. Let the players decide how they want to play their characters, and where. Go with the flow a little more, rather than trying to force it to go around corners.
Blue
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Very well put...
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
And my response to that is: "So?" The devs are the ones opening pandora's box here. It's completely natural for people to question some cases of what, so far, seem like extremely arbitrary limitations on interactions when you cross sides. Sure, we don't know everything yet - it sounds like the devs haven't decided everything yet. But some of what the devs have preliminarily decided doesn't sit well.
Let's look at this from a roleplaying standpoint for a moment. If you're playing a vigilante, why would most of the rogue isles contacts even care? A huge number of them are hiring mercenaries, and a huge number of arcs are villain-on-villain violence. A contact hires a vigilante to wipe out an Arachnos base or a cell of Malta? Rock on? On the flip side, are most Paragon contacts going to care if the person who wanders up to them is more of a dark night (not in the Batman sense) if they need someone to stop the Vahz from poisoning the city, or the Rikti from reinvading? Anyone with a "Rogue" designation presumably has completed enough sensitivity training to have a reputation for saving lives or performing other good deeds at least some of the time. I think only the most morally uptight of contacts would object to their help in a crisis. A reasonable question in this is how do you get introduced to these contacts. But we actually already have a mechanism for that - police scanners and RI newspapers. If a Rogue runs around answering police S.O.S. calls, or a Vigilante runs around taking contracts from RI brokers, the contacts in that zone would hear about it and have a chance to decide this person is someone up their ally. The very nature of introducing "Going Rogue" is to blur the existing lines between the games. That's unavoidable and, in may ways, highly desirable. Leaving in little barriers that trip people trying to take that bluring to fairly natural conclusions is more frustrating than useful. Let the players decide how they want to play their characters, and where. Go with the flow a little more, rather than trying to force it to go around corners. |
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If you have reason to suspect that the mercenary that you're hiring to pull a job will instead rat you out to the Paragon City authorities, would you hire him?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Let's look at this from a roleplaying standpoint for a moment. If you're playing a vigilante, why would most of the rogue isles contacts even care? A huge number of them are hiring mercenaries, and a huge number of arcs are villain-on-villain violence. A contact hires a vigilante to wipe out an Arachnos base or a cell of Malta? Rock on?
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Even villains have to prove their worth to a Mobster before they'll be trusted with the sensitive jobs. (Mainly, by getting themselves in so deep they'll be going to prison too, if they turn on you)
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| On the flip side, are most Paragon contacts going to care if the person who wanders up to them is more of a dark night (not in the Batman sense) if they need someone to stop the Vahz from poisoning the city, or the Rikti from reinvading? Anyone with a "Rogue" designation presumably has completed enough sensitivity training to have a reputation for saving lives or performing other good deeds at least some of the time. I think only the most morally uptight of contacts would object to their help in a crisis. |
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| A reasonable question in this is how do you get introduced to these contacts. But we actually already have a mechanism for that - police scanners and RI newspapers. If a Rogue runs around answering police S.O.S. calls, or a Vigilante runs around taking contracts from RI brokers, the contacts in that zone would hear about it and have a chance to decide this person is someone up their ally. |
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If I live in the Rogue Isles, I doubt I'd care. It's not like the Paragon authorities can do a damn bit about me. The best they might do is hire a vigilante or rogue to do me in. Wait, that's just another mission opportunity...|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
If you have reason to suspect that the mercenary that you're hiring to pull a job will instead rat you out to the Paragon City authorities, would you hire him?
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| Even villains have to prove their worth to a Mobster before they'll be trusted with the sensitive jobs. (Mainly, by getting themselves in so deep they'll be going to prison too, if they turn on you) |
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| Maybe not for the average save the city storyline, but would you send Doctor Doom to fetch back the Talisman of Ultimate Evil, trusting that "Oh, he's reformed now, he doesn't do that any more"? |
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| Since we have absolutely no idea how the system works, it's a bit early to decide that that's NOT how it works. Maybe the Vigilante will be excluded from certain missions that that Contact would otherwise give out, but why not? Does it have to be all or nothing, either you are allowed to take every single mission in the game, no strings attached, or it's not worth it? |
And it would take a whole lot less suspension of disbelief than, say, Merit Vendors, or why heroes would ever let themselves be digitized by the combination of Dr. Aeon and Crey Corporation.
Blue
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
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So does this mean that once my Heroes and Villains arrive in Preatoria, they can choose to become a Loyallist or join the Rebellion too?
My Lego Models http://www.flickr.com/photos/30369639@N07/ lemur lad: God you can't be that stupid... I'm on at the same time as you for once, and not 20 minutes into it you give me something worth petitioning?Lady-Dee: Hey my fat keeps me warm in the winter and shady in the summer.
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I kind of agree with your 'so' -- I don't have any strong view either way about whether it would make a better game to simple throw all the ATs in a big pool and let anyone have access to either side, maybe with some kind of morality meter to determine which contacts will deal with you.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
And my response to that is: "So?" The devs are the ones opening pandora's box here. It's completely natural for people to question some cases of what, so far, seem like extremely arbitrary limitations on interactions when you cross sides. Sure, we don't know everything yet - it sounds like the devs haven't decided everything yet. But some of what the devs have preliminarily decided doesn't sit well.
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However, I don't think there's anything arbitrary about how the devs are structuring Going Rogue. Everything is entirely consistent with a strong desire to keep a distinction between Hero and Villain sides as basic concepts in the game, and to enforce that through game mechanics which allow the sides to touch, but not merge.
As a consequence, I don't think there's much point focusing on separate parts of that, like whether or not markets should be merged, or whether there could be roleplaying justifications for contacts dealing with opposite alignment characters. If there is any chance of changing the devs minds, to me it seems like it would lie in demonstrating to them why an approach involving a fuller merge of the two games is better than the path they're currently taking of keeping them distinct.
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Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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What I'm saying is that the very decision itself is seemingly arbitrary. If we question that core decision, and I do, then everything that stems from it falls under question as well.|
Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
However, I don't think there's anything arbitrary about how the devs are structuring Going Rogue. Everything is entirely consistent with a strong desire to keep a distinction between Hero and Villain sides as basic concepts in the game, and to enforce that through game mechanics which allow the sides to touch, but not merge.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
If there is any chance of changing the devs minds, to me it seems like it would lie in demonstrating to them why an approach involving a fuller merge of the two games is better than the path they're currently taking of keeping them distinct.
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- A merged market is more vibrant. Most people want the market to fucntion in at lease one of two major ways: as a tool for obtaining gear and as a mini-game of its own. More players makes it a far more utilitarian gear supplier, but tends to make the mini-game aspect more "even handed" among players.
- A villain side that's got enforced separation is going to have an even lower playerbase size than it does today, because we know with absolute certainty that some people will leave it when they can move their much-loved ATs over to the more populous, team-oriented side with the more vibrant economy.
- Reducing game mechanical barriers reduces likelyhood of people having to choose between roleplay/concept and in-game performance. We know for a fact people resent those things - see the long-standing debacle about Patron Power Pools.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
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Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Villains wind up in the Zig all the time. Just because Longbow doesn't have jurisdiction in the Rogue Isles doesn't mean they can't arrange to have a villain lured into Paragon City and taken into custody. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If I live in the Rogue Isles, I doubt I'd care. It's not like the Paragon authorities can do a damn bit about me.
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| And we know heroes won't go rogue on that same mission how? Especially a vigilante hero, who the contacts will blithely continue to give those missions out to? |
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| No, but honestly, what's more realistic in terms of delivered effort? How many things have the devs given us teasers for, claming "more to come" and then basically never have revisited because they're always too busy working on the next big thing to come along? |
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I'm sorry, but I think we do. Because if going rogue or vigilante means that neither your original nor "other side" contacts will give you missions, it is a completely pointless distinction in the game, interesting only to hardcore RP and people who never want to do their own missions or form teams. In other words, it would appeal to a very niche segment of players. I do not want to see anything that niche have such effort applied to it.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
We don't know that. We don't know what missions Vigilantes do or don't have access to.
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If you're suggesting that vigilantes and rogues will have all completely new contacts across all level ranges, well, that'd be pretty neat. I'll believe it when I see it from a redname, though. It would be a lot of work.
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| There is no answer to groundless cynicism. Anyone can claim the devs are out to get them and end the argument right there. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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But all of that assumes that nothing WILL be done about the ideas you spoke about. Certainly everything cannot be done all at once. So concluding based on a lack of progress that the devs do not WANT to make progess is a logical error. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
And where in my post was the groundless cynicism? Please be specific. I ask because the thing you quoted me on there is followed by quite factual examples of what I was talking about.
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It is not the factual statement of events of the past that is the point of your statement, it is assumptions about the actions of the future. Outside of your comments about the Market, which I'm not going to argue, everything else you are criticising is speculation. There are no facts, as of yet, at least not about those particular arguments.
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| Because if going rogue or vigilante means that neither your original nor "other side" contacts will give you missions, it is a completely pointless distinction in the game |
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Well, a full merge of the two games would be possible, but the problem is that we do have two distinct factions. If we eliminate that, we eliminate PvP. This isn't just about crossing over content, it's also about crossing over factions. We may want the one to be free and without consequence, but not the other.
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Originally Posted by Grouchybeast
If there is any chance of changing the devs minds, to me it seems like it would lie in demonstrating to them why an approach involving a fuller merge of the two games is better than the path they're currently taking of keeping them distinct.
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On the other hand, there is some question as to what the devs mean by "choose if [you] want to be considered a Hero or Villain". We don't know for sure that a Praetorian who walks into Paragon City is EXACTLY like a pure Hero, accessing Wentworths and getting missions from one of the five departments in City Hall. If Praetorians have to wait for level 10 or 20 before they can enter Paragon City, they might be like Villiains who have switched over and become Heroes, having to pick up with a new set of Contacts somehow.
Likewise, we don't really know how Loyalists and Resistance fit into this. Positron called the Loyalists the villains and Resistance the heroes, but supposedly this is independent of which side you can choose outside of Preatoria. So does it effect which Market you use? I noticed in the video it said that you choose Loyalist or Resistance before you even leave the tutorial, so apparently it is impossible to not have a "side". Yet, it says here there are "points within their stories" where you can switch sides, so apparently you can keep switching between the Resistance and Praetorian Guard as often as you like.