no.
This was tried back before the game launched and was deemed a complete disaster.
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During the beginning, the entire system was completely open, meaning you could pair Illusion Control with Dark Control, etc. This system remains semi-open, semi-closed, ensuring that no one is able to gimp themselves from the start, or become a complete Tankmage.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
no.
This was tried back before the game launched and was deemed a complete disaster. |
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There's a fundamental problem with that - defence doesn't represent just your ability to dodge, it represents your ability to DEFLECT. And not just deflect with a shield or your arms, but deflect with armour. Easy examples:| Now, WHY Defense and Resistance being separated? It's because, thinking along the lines of CoH mechanics, Resistance is how damage is reduced while Defense is your chance to Evade/Dodge the attack itself. To me, Defense screams 'Agile, fluid, smooth' while Resistance seems more 'Tough, pain-tolerant'. |
Stone Armour/Rock Armour is a thick, lumpy, cumbersome coating of rocks over your model. It is NOT in any way conducive to dodging, but that's OK, because the rocks simply deflect incoming fire.
Invulnerability/Tough Hide is exactly what it says on the tin - a tough hide of skin. So tough, in fact, that a lot of attacks simply don't hurt you. It doesn't help you dodge, it helps you not feel attacks that do land.
Forcefields/Deflection Shield doesn't require the shielded character to do anything at all. He could be asleep, and the shield will still work. The shield does not allow the character to dodge, it simply deflects incoming fire.
In fact, look at how sets are built now - almost all defensive sets combine both defence and resistance. Invulnerability, the second-toughest-by-concept set, relies as much on damage resistance from its toggles and passives, as it does on defence from Tough Hide and Invincibility. Stone Armour, the tough, lumbering behemoth of defence sets, has three defence-based shields: Rock Armour, Crystal Armour and Minerals, and only one resistance-based: Brimstone Armour. Granite Armour, in turn, provides a lot of defence, but also a lot of resistance, as well. Hell, even Super Reflexes, THE fast, nimble set, depends on the scaling resistances in its passives to a great extent.
I'm also not sure why you divide buff and debuff, when several support sets combine the two. Sets like Traps, for instance.
Overall, your idea is interesting, but it seems like it misses out on a few classes that already exist. Epics aside, Blasters aren't represented. They are neither Ranged/Melee nor Ranged/Support (even though the creator calls them that). Blasters have a unique secondary solely to them - Manipulation. Manipulation sets combine some limited support, largely self-centred, and some limited offensive ability, usually melee or otherwise situational. Some Mastery sets lean more towards control, as well. For instance, Devices is largely control with situational damage, Ice Manipulation is control with support, and something like Energy Manipulation is primarily damage with some support.
Additionally, your system completely writes Dominators out of the game. Dominators, like Blasters, have a secondary unique to them - Assault. Assault secondaries are neither melee not ranged, they are a combination of the two. Some lean more towards range while others more towards melee, but they are all somewhere in-between. Because Dominators would require a Control primary, that limits them to one secondary, and your circle does not include assault.
Your circle also has a few choices which confound me.
You pair up melee with buff, yet not with debuff. Why? You also pair melee up with ranged, I'm assuming to allow for the Blaster framework, but that's actually a terrible combo. Blasters do survive on their damage, but trying to play a completely support-less Blaster (say, Fire/Fire) will quickly show you that if you lack self-protection AND self-support, live is really, really hard.
You also pair summoning with defence and resistance, which is... A really odd choice if you have no offence to speak of. You also, again, pair it up with buff, but not debuff, making Anything/Dark Miasma Masterminds impossible. Also, you pair summoning with melee, yet not ranged, even though, on average, melee sets actually do more damage and are at the same time less appropriate for someone without self-protection. I'll leave the "range as defence (or not)" debate for another time, though.
Range is even stranger. You pair it with both buff and debuff, which allows for Defenders and Corrupters to exist, but you also pair it with control. I'm assuming that's to model Dominators, but that's not what they are. Not only that, but it was at one point stated that Controllers were denied solid ranged damage because control plus damage was overpowered. Given that Dominators exist, that might not be so, but it's worth mentioning. And then the real big thing, though - you pair range with defence? This has been explicitly stated as overpowered in a LOT examinations, and I believe the developers hinted at this not being something they want. Certainly via careful balance it can be made to work, but this treads dangerous territory. You're a lot more likely to see one of the two sets being hybrid - either melee and range (e.i. assault) with defence, or range with defence/something. And again - why only with defence but not with resistance?
And what about control and summoning? Why not link those together? We already have summoning/support, why not summoning/control? I mean, I know there is a difference between the two, but the logic could easily extend, and it'd be a hell of a lot easier to make work than some of the stuff I've suggested, like melee+range/summoning-buff-bots and so on.
Again, I don't want to sound like a jerk out to ruin your day. I had a good, long look at your idea, and I must admit it looks very interesting. I'm just seeing a lot of things on it that I don't get.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes, Assault/Manipulation sets, I'll admit I'd forgotten about those. Again, it's a VERY rough idea, and adding such things in could easily be added into things. Honestly? A part of me wants to take this as the framework for the next big Superhero MMO (Because every teen has a chance to get a massive game published! Obviously!)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Yay Brevity! /snip
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As for Ranged/Control? Again, with the penalties of being either Secondary, one category would provide the balance for the other.
Why not Melee/DeBuff? It's still a possibility, but as it is; melee is mixes with nearly everything but Control and Debuff. I could see it being viable, but I could also see it being more overpowered than when paired with a Buff.
Control/Summoning? I find Summoning to be already something of a 'Control' set, although it's more controlling allies than enemies. I think it would be a bit too much to pair the two up.
As many can tell, this is barely fitting into CoH as it is. It might be better in it's own game, it's own structure, etc, but I'd still like some feedback.
Debuff and Buff cannot be seperated like that.
Almost all defender priomaries (and corr/troller and MM secondaries) are a combination of buff and debuff inside of one set
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Conceptually nifteh.
I could see this working as an Epic Archtype with work.
The root would also work as a new system for a future RPG. However trying to change CoH to this, would be epic fail.
My thought would be though, make it an Epic Archtype, and work about like this:
All of the "types" would be a specific power set.
Level 1: Choose 2
Level 24: choose a third, which aliged with the first two (have a couple of "only at 24" links, like buff/debuff could be linked at 24, but you couldn't start with it for example)
Level 41: Instead of typical Epic/Patrons, have "epic" versions of all sets, which you would have access to all those which were linked to at least one of your sets.
Could be powerful, and could be a lot of fun.
I'm sorry, Sig, I know you mean well, but that diagram... it just looks like something that would appear in an xkcd strip in which one of the stick figures is proclaiming to the other that he'd come up with A Simple And Elegant Game Design. 
Why does this go to "people will gimp themselves" every time?
The best way to stop that is to make a true open archetype unlockable at 50 so that they learn powers with the static ones.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Since when have people learned anything by getting to level 50?
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Why does this go to "people will gimp themselves" every time?
The best way to stop that is to make a true open archetype unlockable at 50 so that they learn powers with the static ones. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Since they nerfed AE farming. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Since when have people learned anything by getting to level 50?
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Do I need to break out my Fire Blast/Super Reflexes example again?
That is a possibility according to your diagram.
Overwhelming ranged damage, almost never hit, and immune (or nearly so) to status effects? Pretty much a definition of overpowered.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Actually, if the character were asleep, his protection would be suppressed. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Forcefields/Deflection Shield doesn't require the shielded character to do anything at all. He could be asleep, and the shield will still work. The shield does not allow the character to dodge, it simply deflects incoming fire.
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No it wouldn't. |
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
Actually, if the character were asleep, his protection would be suppressed.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I think I know how to fix the idea behind the buff -debuff being seperate, and same with the def and res sets.
Yes, they are mixed and matched. But WHICH is the one that is focused on?
So, you will either have a buff set with a few debuffs (/Fire on Corrs) or a Debuff set with some buffs (/Rad on Corrs)
A res set with some defence (Willpower) or a Defense set with some Resistance (Stone armour).
Hell, I'd go for it. Unlockable, maybe. But more options would be nice.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't think that's entirely possible, as some sets already exist which blur the line. Traps, for instance, has three debuffs: Poison Gas Trap, Seeker Drones and Acid Mortar Two buffs, one of which is SIGNIFICANT: Triage Beacon and Forcefield Generator, a couple of control powers and a couple of damage powers. It's a bad of tricks.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I think I know how to fix the idea behind the buff -debuff being seperate, and same with the def and res sets.
Yes, they are mixed and matched. But WHICH is the one that is focused on? So, you will either have a buff set with a few debuffs (/Fire on Corrs) or a Debuff set with some buffs (/Rad on Corrs) A res set with some defence (Willpower) or a Defense set with some Resistance (Stone armour). Hell, I'd go for it. Unlockable, maybe. But more options would be nice. |
As well, I wouldn't call Willpower a resistance set. It has SOME resistance, mostly to smashing and lethal damage, but it also depends on defence a LOT as well, particularly for any non-physical damage type. It also relies a lot on extra hit points and regeneration, as well.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, then make that the defence option set, then. Def with some res, and some other tricks.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think that's entirely possible, as some sets already exist which blur the line. Traps, for instance, has three debuffs: Poison Gas Trap, Seeker Drones and Acid Mortar Two buffs, one of which is SIGNIFICANT: Triage Beacon and Forcefield Generator, a couple of control powers and a couple of damage powers. It's a bad of tricks.
As well, I wouldn't call Willpower a resistance set. It has SOME resistance, mostly to smashing and lethal damage, but it also depends on defence a LOT as well, particularly for any non-physical damage type. It also relies a lot on extra hit points and regeneration, as well. |
Invul is mostly res with a few tricks (Dull Pain) and some def (tough Hide, Invincible)
It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination (only decent and thorough testing and balancing, which is more the issue) to see a possibility.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I think Cold Domination would be the best set to articulate your point.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think that's entirely possible, as some sets already exist which blur the line. Traps, for instance, has three debuffs: Poison Gas Trap, Seeker Drones and Acid Mortar Two buffs, one of which is SIGNIFICANT: Triage Beacon and Forcefield Generator, a couple of control powers and a couple of damage powers. It's a bad of tricks.
As well, I wouldn't call Willpower a resistance set. It has SOME resistance, mostly to smashing and lethal damage, but it also depends on defence a LOT as well, particularly for any non-physical damage type. It also relies a lot on extra hit points and regeneration, as well. |
Buffs:
Ice Shield
Glacial Shield
Frostwork
Arctic Air
Heatloss
Debuffs:
Infrigidate
Snowstorm
Benumb
Sleet
Heatloss
That's 5 buffs, 5 debuffs (1 power does both). So is it a Buff set or a Debuff set?
IMO it simply doesn't make sense to try and seperate out Support sets or Defensive sets 5+ years into the game. Each one is geared towards a single thing; Support = Team Mitigation, Defensive = Self Mitigation. (Enabling faster killing is mitigation in it's own right. Dead mobs deal no damage.)
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Well, then make that the defence option set, then. Def with some res, and some other tricks.
Invul is mostly res with a few tricks (Dull Pain) and some def (tough Hide, Invincible) It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination (only decent and thorough testing and balancing, which is more the issue) to see a possibility. |
Likewise I could argue Invulnerability, because while it gets twice as many resistance powers it can potentially gain as much benefit from those defense powers, more so if facing a lot of the elemental damage types.
Invulnerability with all powers 3slotted with Even level SOs gets 70.2% resist to Smashing/Lethal, but only 31.2% resist to Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Toxic where Tough Hide and fully saturated Invincibility give 31.2%defense to everything but Psionic.
Truth be told Neither set is an Either/Or situation.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Yer right, I must have been thinking about [Personal Force Field].
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
No it wouldn't.
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I'd think any kind of system like this would have to be something you unlock by being level 45-50 and doing a TF. Then I'd say it would need to have custom mixed AT modifiers of 70% for the chosen primary and 50% for the chosen secondary.
Combined with a few 'anti gimp' selections and the mixed AT mods, you wouldn't be able to gimp yourself nor overpower natural ATs.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
I think the idea is interesting but some tweaks should be made.
Instead of buff/debuff being separate and def/res being separate combine them into what we have now.
Buffs and Debuffs become Support
Def and Res become Armor
I'd also like to see Melee being paired with Control becuase I think it would be a cool set up and you'd have to rely on control for defense like Dominators do.
Listen, guys, I apologize for this entire thread. I didn't even think of applying it to CoH, it was more like "If I were to try to come up with a game with Superheroes and classes and stuff, what would I want? I know! To take the good from two different games, and weed out all the bad!" In a way, this wasn't even a suggestion for City of Heroes, but just a sort of idea in general. For future games, or just for kicks and giggles.
I actually would love to have this idea and would invest a cheese load of money to see it go into fruition.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Thanks, Billy Mays. I guess I shouldn't have been expecting much from this forum... No, no, it's not because I think people are rude, it's because people think "How in hell would this work well in CoH?!" where as I was hoping for "Well, this could work on it's own somewhere else, but could use a bit of tweaking [here] and [there]." |
Originally Posted by Santorican
I actually would love to have this idea and would invest a cheese load of money to see it go into fruition.
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Am I trying to make my own MMO? Not by a long shot, but if I ever did hope to, I'd want nothing less than to model it after the best one out there.
They would have to put a limit on things so you couldnt take multiple nukes as an example.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
The idea of a Semi-Open Archetype System seems a bit odd, doesn't it? Sounds like something Champions tried to do, but then wound up with... Whatever they've got going for them now. What if there were a middle point between a strict Archetype-based system and an Open system?
Allow me to elaborate:
There are 8 possible categories:
Melee
Ranged
Buff
Debuff
Resistance
Defense
Control
Summon
Two of these can be chosen, but not ANY two, but rather a balance, like so:
As you can see from the chart, it prevents a lot of gimping by not allowing people to mix things like Buff/Debuff, making them solo-useless, but it also prevents overpowering by keeping Control powers away from Summon, Defense, and Resistance.
Summon is the wildcard, of course. It would rely on the caster's own stats, which is why it can mix with Defense/Resistance; so the summoned pet gains the bonus.
The sets will gain bonuses/suffer penalties depending on whether they are the Primary or Secondary component in building the Archetype. Not a very major bonus nor penalty, but enough to make a difference between a Melee/Resistance and a Resistance/Melee.
Now, WHY Defense and Resistance being separated? It's because, thinking along the lines of CoH mechanics, Resistance is how damage is reduced while Defense is your chance to Evade/Dodge the attack itself. To me, Defense screams 'Agile, fluid, smooth' while Resistance seems more 'Tough, pain-tolerant'.
In addition to the 2 powers, at a much higher level, the user will be able to choose from a third category, but with much more limited powers to choose from. They would be able to choose this catergory based on what two categories already BOTH fit into this third category: For example? You've got Control/Range... Unfortunately, you're limited to DeBuff, but it remains an option.
I realize City of Heroes/Villains is far too far along the lines for such a radical change, but it would be nice to get some input on a very rough draft; I'd like to refine it, and see where it takes me.