um last i checked defender was a support class not a DPS one
Problem with saying defenders are a support classs is that their secondary is a blaster primary and controllers often offer far more support because they have controls AND a defender primary.
Defenders need more damage. Its just that simple. When Going ROgue drops I may never roll another defender again. I would just roll a corruptor.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Last time you checked, you must have been playing a different game. Archetypes in this game do a bit of both, including tanks, defenders, and controllers.
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Originally Posted by Blpup
um last i checked defender was a support class not a DPS one
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so... /signed.
Back when real numbers first launched, I started running numbers for each of the classes.
In most cases in the games power creation screen, the terms medium and high were divided into 30% differences. For example, on average a Tank's defensive numbers were 30% better than a Scrapper's defenses for the same power. A Scrappers Offensive output was 30% better than a tanks for the same power. A Controllers buffs were on average 30% lower than a defenders buffs, leaning more to the 25% side. The same held true going over to villians. High, Medium, and Low differed on average by 30%.
When I got to Blasters versus Defenders damage though, medium and high suddenly went away. The damage difference was 60% on average. The defenders damage rating wasn't medium, it was bloody low.
Okay, yes, with IO's and the defenders primaries, you can turn really low damage into consistent medium damage. Which is great when you're playing a Trick Arrow, Dark, Radiation, Sonic, Traps, or Cold Dom... powersets with resistance and defense debuffs, or strong -regen debuffs.
It's not really so great when you're playing a kin, because you'll pretty much risk getting slaughtered by AOE's when entering melee range to take part in the Fulcrum Shift buff. Storm's pretty decent on the do damage front as well, with Lightning Storm, Tornado, and Freezing Rain offering some amount of damage... Storm's just low on the typical debuffs for -resistance / -defense / -regen. It's a great control set if you've got a wall to push enemies into, but more often than not, the native attacks will be shoving enemies away from damage... not racking damage up. (at least on a defender. Storm on the controller side is nasty when coupled with knockback preventing holds)
It's really lousy when you're playing a Force Field or an Empath. Great team-buffs... but you'll need to be stacking a ton of IO's with damage buffs to really feel like you can kill anything. Possible, but in the same way that soft-capping is possible. The majority of the game just isn't ever going to do it.
Which is sort of the point. I can see some number crunchers saying Defenders would be over-powered by bringing the damage numbers up to within 30% of blasters attacks... actually making them Medium to the Blasters High. I'm not so sure. I'd like to imagine that at some point the text listing for Defender damage was accurate and that Jack had something to do with so little damage.
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Why are Storm's debuffs so unknown, even by people who I figure would know better. Freezing Rain is a blooming ridiculous defense and resistance debuff and you can stack it. Tornado stacks even more defense debuff (not that defense debuffs are a big deal late game, and not that you really need it with FR, but Storm is certainly not low on its ability to debuff defense). Hurricane's massive to-hit debuff can be tagged on a spawn without using its positioning ability since its sticky.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Storm's pretty decent on the do damage front as well, with Lightning Storm, Tornado, and Freezing Rain offering some amount of damage... Storm's just low on the typical debuffs for -resistance / -defense / -regen. It's a great control set if you've got a wall to push enemies into, but more often than not, the native attacks will be shoving enemies away from damage... not racking damage up. (at least on a defender. Storm on the controller side is nasty when coupled with knockback preventing holds)
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Storm lacks a regen debuff, which may be a problem on small teams vs. AVs or vs. stuff with exceptionally high regen like GMs and Madame of Mystery.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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MoM doesn't have an especially high regen. She has high damage resists to a lot of damage types. Lethal being the one she is most vulnerable to.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Storm lacks a regen debuff, which may be a problem on small teams vs. AVs or vs. stuff with exceptionally high regen like GMs and Madame of Mystery.
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so the -res from strom is a pretty big help with her.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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If you want my opinion, it's because they weren't there a few years back. When I slotted up my own Ill / Storm after IO's came out, there were no options for Defense debuff on Freezing Rain or Tornado. Hurricane's To-Hit debuff was also pretty useless unless you were on-top of a mob and in knock-them-out-of-their-socks range... and that was after 5-slotting with Dark Watcher's To-Hit debuff. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Why are Storm's debuffs so unknown, even by people who I figure would know better. Freezing Rain is a blooming ridiculous defense and resistance debuff and you can stack it. Tornado stacks even more defense debuff (not that defense debuffs are a big deal late game, and not that you really need it with FR, but Storm is certainly not low on its ability to debuff defense). Hurricane's massive to-hit debuff can be tagged on a spawn without using its positioning ability since its sticky.
Storm lacks a regen debuff, which may be a problem on small teams vs. AVs or vs. stuff with exceptionally high regen like GMs and Madame of Mystery. |
Because Storm was so light on applicable debuffs for so long, most players seem to skip over them. Even though I've got Freezing Rain slotted for Accurate Defense Debuff, I still have problems thinking of it as anything other than an AOE slow.
That's the defender. It's not a blaster.
Guess what: the Corruptor trades buff/debuff strength for slightly more damage
Defenders have higher values on their heals, debuffs/buffs AND secondary effects.
This is called balance. Welcome to a MMORPG
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lmt: I get that. The problem that I have is that the terms used by the developers don't match what the powers do. If the developers listed the Defenders damage as Low.. then the numbers would fit. The defender's secondary numbers aren't listed as low though. They are listed as medium... and aren't even close to the ratios used in any other archtype that has directly comparable powers.
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Originally Posted by lmt1979
That's the defender. It's not a blaster.
Guess what: the Corruptor trades buff/debuff strength for slightly more damage Defenders have higher values on their heals, debuffs/buffs AND secondary effects. This is called balance. Welcome to a MMORPG |
This has been discussed many times. The basic problem comes down to the fact that while Defenders could use a damage boost when solo the damage that a group of defenders can dish out is already a bit too powerful.
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You are simply incorrect. Just because there were no set IOs to slot, that does not mean those powers were not ridiculously good at debuffing. With no slotting, FR and Hurricane are very strong. With SOs, they are amazing. With Hamis/IOs they can get a smidge better.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
If you want my opinion, it's because they weren't there a few years back. When I slotted up my own Ill / Storm after IO's came out, there were no options for Defense debuff on Freezing Rain or Tornado. Hurricane's To-Hit debuff was also pretty useless unless you were on-top of a mob and in knock-them-out-of-their-socks range... and that was after 5-slotting with Dark Watcher's To-Hit debuff.
Because Storm was so light on applicable debuffs for so long, most players seem to skip over them. Even though I've got Freezing Rain slotted for Accurate Defense Debuff, I still have problems thinking of it as anything other than an AOE slow. |
Hurricanes to-hit buff has always been fine just tapping the spawn and shutting it off, if the situation warrants that tactic. Its positioning ability was much better before they changed the way it works because of how "abused" it could be in base raids. (Remember when you could do those?)
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
MoM doesn't have an especially high regen. She has high damage resists to a lot of damage types. Lethal being the one she is most vulnerable to.
so the -res from strom is a pretty big help with her. |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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^This^|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This has been discussed many times. The basic problem comes down to the fact that while Defenders could use a damage boost when solo the damage that a group of defenders can dish out is already a bit too powerful.
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Plus I will toss in that from a previous thread about buffing defenders, the devs haven't shown historically to give out free buffs without balancing it with something else. If they do buff without and other changes, that is usually because the AT is not performing up to their expectations.
Look back how blaster, stalker, dominator, and Khelds were changed.
IMO only, if the devs increased damage (our secondary), they would either balance with a change to our primary (the thing that makes us shine) or do something like they did with doms and affect rech/end/etc. Maybe with the inherent the way it is, upping end cost would be a fair trade, but at the cost of soloing more easily.
In the end, I would like some one to PM the devs for a response on this since it does come up often. I don't want to since I feel defenders are already awesome as is and don't want to see changes.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
lmt: I get that. The problem that I have is that the terms used by the developers don't match what the powers do. If the developers listed the Defenders damage as Low.. then the numbers would fit. The defender's secondary numbers aren't listed as low though. They are listed as medium... and aren't even close to the ratios used in any other archtype that has directly comparable powers.
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Well I think that the descriptions are a carry-over from launch when defender base damage was 75% of Blaster damage
(which is about a 30% difference).
But since that time we have seen Defender base dmg drop to 65% base, Blaster dmg go up and they got an inherent that stacks more damage. Oh lets not forget ED and GDN.
Controllers got containment which ups their dmg by hmmm.... 100% !!! And they get to use our buffs and can cross-buff on teams too.
Hey devs ! How bout our blasts get double dmg on any mob that is debuffed... Huh ??? !
We need to at least get back to 75% where we were before all the nerf-buff-nerf-buff
In fact I would be willing to say that Defenders have been pretty much ignored in efforts to help other ATs.
Would be nice to get some AT love from the devs eventually.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I can agree with you in all regards. I would add though for the two sets you mentioned, (they are 2 of the 4 primaries I have played the most over the years) both lack any kind of debuff that would raise their own personal damage.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
It's really lousy when you're playing a Force Field or an Empath. Great team-buffs... but you'll need to be stacking a ton of IO's with damage buffs to really feel like you can kill anything. Possible, but in the same way that soft-capping is possible. The majority of the game just isn't ever going to do it.
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Two things though.
From a role-play perspective these two sets are much more defensive-passive in their mind-set and how their powers function.
Not that that really matters, but its something to think about.
Secondly, although they offer nothing to increase your killing speed, both sets offer probably the the most powerful ways to: "Keep your team alive, even when they are totally being crazy"
I would love to see a -res debuff in a power like Force Bolt, or some means of empathy to reach out and touch someone. But after 5 years of people asking, they have not given in to the community on these two sets. I will not hold my breath
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Huge oversimplification.|
Originally Posted by lmt1979
the Corruptor trades buff/debuff strength for slightly more damage
Defenders have higher values on their heals, debuffs/buffs AND secondary effects. |
Corruptors trade strength at some, but not all, kinds of buff/debuffs, for more damage on nearly all damage powers.
Defenders tend to have higher values on buff/debuff powers that are easily hard or softcapped by any buff/debuff AT (Fulcrum Shift, bubbles, heals, mez protection, -defense, +tohit), and do not have higher values on many buff/debuff powers (+rechargespeed, +movespeed, full-heals e.g. rezzes, +/-regen, +/- end, +/-recovery, slows compared to controllers). That leaves just a few buff/debuff types where there's a clear defender advantage: -damage, -tohit, +/-resist, and more modest +damage and +defense buffs that non-defenders can't cap people with, like Fortitude.
I admit I haven't read word for word the posts in this thread, but what I would propose as a 'buff' to defenders is not a straight damage boost, but a boost in the secondary effects of the defender blasts and the primaries to a degree to set them apart from controllers. I know that already many effects can cap stacking defenders, but it would certainly help single and duo defenders on solo or on a team.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Any change to defenders needs to start with the inherent.
Something like defiance would be perfect.
It'd help solo defenders of all stripes.
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Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
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I don't know if its actual damage that needs to be increased so much as the abyssal DPE ratio needs to be improved. Currently defenders pay the same end for attacks as everyone else but do considerably less damage. EVen when they can use thier primary to increase the damage they do it is at a further end cost. Its this factor and the near total lack of decent mez protection that has reduced the soloability of defenders to the point where I cannot play them, as I mostly (like 99% of the time) solo.
While the introduction of traps to defenders, which fixes the mez issue without having to sacrifice soloability, has encouraged me to start a traps/sonic defender and I am having a reasonable amount of fun with that character that is one combo out of many. None of the other primaries with real mez protection are very good solo as FF gives up ALL offensive debuffing and really only has a few solo usable powers and sonic, while it has some offensive debuffs still has far to many powers only usable on allies. However, after seeing how vehemently everyone was against any kind of mez protection in the 'mez protection for all' thread I have given up on that point which means that the only thing to improve in defenders is the DPE or overall damage.
I do think that improving the inherent is the way to go with this - something that will either increase damage while solo (and possibly do something else while grouped) or reduce end costs in a predictable, reliable way would be very usefull. Someone had previously suggested a buff similar to defiance on each power that stacked end reduction - I think they had suggested 5% end reduction per power with a cap at 25%. I believe they had also suggested a similar buf to global recharge and that the primaries do one of the buffs and the secondaries do another but I can't remember who suggested it and thier exact suggestion. This is one of the best suggestions I have seen so far and about the only one that I suspect the dev's will get behind - increasing the overall damage is NOT going to happen, as an increase in defender damage will result in a cry for an increase in corruptor damage which will then propogate downstream as blasters cry about how they are no longer the damage kings, etc, etc.
So what we really need to do is get as many folks behind a reasonable inherent change as we can and start pushing that very hard - that strikes me as the only way to get any changes to the AT.
EDIT: A note on mez protection: My real problem with lack of mez protection on defenders is the fact that so many of them are still dependent on offensive toggles that WILL drop when mezzed, even if the mez is just a 1 second sleep. This is what prevents me from playing rad defenders, despite the great debuffs in rad as the only way to keep all your debuffs from dropping is to pro-actively suck down a break free when fighting a mezzing mob and there is no way to keep enough break free's around for this. Even storm suffers from this to an extent - while FR is a nice debuff that is not a toggle it still mostly prevents damage through the KB. Snow storm and hurricane, which are the primary damage prevention debuffs in storm are also going to drop at the first sleep or stun. Dark is about the only set that offers enough damage increase AND non-toggle dependent damage mitigation to make it worth playing solo for me, as 2/3 of the mitigation is in fearsome stare or tar patch and only darkest night will drop on mez.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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Build for area damage and take advantage of procs. Radiation blast can do tons of damage.
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Originally Posted by Stardrive
My 40 Rad/Rad (since she was never a farm toon) doesn't have near the Kin's survivability and seems to hit like a screaming little school girl.
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One of the tips that pops up every-now and then on the loading screen is something to the effect of : Not all archtypes are built to solo|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Any change to defenders needs to start with the inherent.
Something like defiance would be perfect. It'd help solo defenders of all stripes. |
The defender Archtype really isn't built to be a solo class. Yes, there are some can can tweak their powers with IO's and come up with a build that can reliably solo. Yes, upping the damage to fit what's advertised would also help defenders to solo.
However, the devs have proven in the past they'll take drastic measures (like turning Defiance off on Blasters) to force archtypes to fit into the envisioned rolls. So while a lot of players realize that negligence desperately needs a rework... I highly doubt any anti-mez or the like is in there. Any rework to a defender's inherent is probably going to be very much focused on teaming.
In the same way, I somewhat doubt that the devs will up defender damage. I would expect them to just re-label the damage to low and just leave the class alone.
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Well, the introduction of VEATs does show that the dev's are willing to design an AT that can solo AND contribute to a group, so if we can come up with a suggestion that doesn't increase the group power of a defender, doesn't spark a chain of other AT's asking for the same increase and is reasonable and easy to implement there is a chance it might get implemented.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
One of the tips that pops up every-now and then on the loading screen is something to the effect of : Not all archtypes are built to solo
The defender Archtype really isn't built to be a solo class. Yes, there are some can can tweak their powers with IO's and come up with a build that can reliably solo. Yes, upping the damage to fit what's advertised would also help defenders to solo. However, the devs have proven in the past they'll take drastic measures (like turning Defiance off on Blasters) to force archtypes to fit into the envisioned rolls. So while a lot of players realize that negligence desperately needs a rework... I highly doubt any anti-mez or the like is in there. Any rework to a defender's inherent is probably going to be very much focused on teaming. In the same way, I somewhat doubt that the devs will up defender damage. I would expect them to just re-label the damage to low and just leave the class alone. |
Since I absolutely cannot stand playing defenders as they currently exist (barring one unusual combo - traps/sonic) I will always push for some kind of change. Not changing defenders won't drive me away from the game or anything, it just means I will continue to avoid them. I do think that the dev's are going to have to serously re-think defenders when going rogue hits and corruptors can cross over - while the base damage capability of corruptors is about the same as defenders (once you factor in the higher debuffs) the corruptor inherent is JUST good enough to make them better. Scourge makes a lot more difference than I think a lot of people realize.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
30% chance for -5 regen on Zappys lightning bolts would make me consider it worth using.
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This sounds about as likely as a perpetual motion machine. |
Originally Posted by EricHough
... so if we can come up with a suggestion that doesn't increase the group power of a defender, doesn't spark a chain of other AT's asking for the same increase and is reasonable and easy to implement there is a chance it might get implemented.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
Since I absolutely cannot stand playing defenders as they currently exist (barring one unusual combo - traps/sonic) I will always push for some kind of change. Not changing defenders won't drive me away from the game or anything, it just means I will continue to avoid them.
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As I said in another thread, any disparity adjustment would need to come from bringing controllers down, not Defenders up. I've never seen anything to suggest Defender primary effects were anything but on the very high side as it is.
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
I admit I haven't read word for word the posts in this thread, but what I would propose as a 'buff' to defenders is not a straight damage boost, but a boost in the secondary effects of the defender blasts and the primaries to a degree to set them apart from controllers. I know that already many effects can cap stacking defenders, but it would certainly help single and duo defenders on solo or on a team.
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OK, I saw a couple of semi-related threads, but I figured I'd throw out a more general question on tips for defender damage.
I can build incredibly powerful support defenders, but DPS always seems anemic on all my defender toons. My 50 Kinetic/Ice defender can literally solo tank Jurrasik indefinitely (went at him for a half hour once just for fun), but even throwing FS and Siphon Power constantly, I can't even scratch him. Even soloing a Red con Boss seems agonizingly slow compared to other Archetypes.
My 40 Rad/Rad (since she was never a farm toon) doesn't have near the Kin's survivability and seems to hit like a screaming little school girl. Granted having all 3 debuffs going helps, but, again, awful slow vs other Archs
Don't even get me started on my 25 Emp/Psi Defender, lol.