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The loss of double/triple Domination is another explanation as well. There is also the increased End cost in some Secondaries. |
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
2. You were a fire/psi and got pissed that they nerfed PS.
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Certainly Rad or Kin does not need such a nerf, though, as those Power Sets are pretty balanced across multiple powers, and they do not need to be boosted or nerfed. You might even say that Dominators used to have Defender-level damage, and the previous Domination was the equivalent of the boost Defenders and Corruptors get from their Primary or Secondary, respectively. Now they get that from their base damage.
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Have you thought about getting therapy? you should. |
Originally Posted by PHlRE
nice lousy attempt of passive-aggressiveness. The only "name-calling" you can accuse me of is calling you a "n00b". Well, isnt THAT obvious? Isnt that the whole reason why you started this thread, and EVERY n00b that starts this very same thread? Im not sure how you can complain about something that is obviously factual, and what you define yourself within this thread in your own words.
Im not really impressed by your "claimed" track record, which really doesnt matter at all. Going back to the reason this very thread even exists (yet again). Clarification, just for your Pride's sake since you felt you needed to state your record - Yes, i think you're a Def n00b. No, i didnt mean for it to sound like you're a n00b altogether. Yes, i figured you've played other AT's before - well, its safe to assume if you got a 50 in something, you're gonna have a 50 in something else too and more.... Anyways, and yes - i did share a good few things to you. Become a Corruptor or plz click on my Sonic Attack Chain thread..... Umm, did YOU read and listen? More information/knowledge for you..... *READ THROUGH THE DEFENDER'S FORUM TO EDJUMACATE YOURSELF!!!! its there for a fracking reason..... *If you did, you'd learn from MANY others how to amplify a Defender's damage (ie - using -Resist debuffs that MOST defender primaries have, also Ancillary power buffs, Assault [which Defenders get & give the highest damage buff from]). If still quite confuzzled about all this - ive realized you cant squeeze blood out of a lemon. And if you feel a Defender is a lemon, you obviously cant either. And if you need to see the BIG numbers and data for proof, ya know, its not too late to click on this.... http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=195250 |
I am also interested in suggestions of IO slotting to maximize damage for my defenders. I have in the past made a toon that took no powers that did not effect me. It was an interesting build that ticked people off when the defender didnt have candy for them.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Because Storm was so light on applicable debuffs for so long, most players seem to skip over them. Even though I've got Freezing Rain slotted for Accurate Defense Debuff, I still have problems thinking of it as anything other than an AOE slow.
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I usually try to stay out of these threads, but was reading through this one, and just thought I'd respond to this comment, since it was addressed but I didn't see the numbers provided.
Freezing Rain is essentially a 45 second debuff with a 60 second recharge that will stack with itself. That means that with 3 SOs and hasten you can basically perma stack 2, and with a couple set bonuses you can easily stack 3 half the time. That ammounts to a 105% resistance debuff (obviously the fight needs to last long enough for three applications to be relevant), and a 90% defense debuff (if unslotted). Certainly not just an AOE slow, that's what snow storm is.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
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Another thing to take note of: the defense debuff is only really useful in the lower levels where characters might not be slotted well. Excepting a few mob types (Cimerorans being notable here), hitting enemies in the PvE game isn't much of an issue between a character's own acc/tohit slotting and all the tohit buffs being thrown around by various teammates. As such, Freezing Rain becomes more useful as an AoE slow and knockdown patch, but especially as a sizable resistance debuff.
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Originally Posted by Draggynn
I usually try to stay out of these threads, but was reading through this one, and just thought I'd respond to this comment, since it was addressed but I didn't see the numbers provided.
Freezing Rain is essentially a 45 second debuff with a 60 second recharge that will stack with itself. That means that with 3 SOs and hasten you can basically perma stack 2, and with a couple set bonuses you can easily stack 3 half the time. That ammounts to a 105% resistance debuff (obviously the fight needs to last long enough for three applications to be relevant), and a 90% defense debuff (if unslotted). Certainly not just an AOE slow, that's what snow storm is. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Yes, although technically both Def debuffs and Res debuffs are offensive boosts, since most folks choose to cap Acc at 95% you really gain no more benefit beyond that point. It used to be possible to trade a slot of Acc for Dam (this was quite common in Rad Blast) but ED made that less effective. |
Originally Posted by macskull
Another thing to take note of: the defense debuff is only really useful in the lower levels where characters might not be slotted well. Excepting a few mob types (Cimerorans being notable here), hitting enemies in the PvE game isn't much of an issue between a character's own acc/tohit slotting and all the tohit buffs being thrown around by various teammates. As such, Freezing Rain becomes more useful as an AoE slow and knockdown patch, but especially as a sizable resistance debuff.
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You can also buff Recharge, but there is no way to debuff the inverse.
(-Recharge is defensive, not offensive) So it is +Dam buffs and -Res debuffs that are most valuable, even moreso because they cannot be slotted. Even so, every little bit helps, and even a -Def is better than nothing at all. One of the reasons Sonic Assault appears so powerful is because its debuff is so rare and valuable. It isn't really that out of proportion with other secondary effects.
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Although I agree with the ultimate conclusion that Defenders could use some help, the "Corruptors/Masterminds will kill Defenders" argument is potentially counterproductive.|
Originally Posted by Myrmydon
We'll see what gets fixed after Corruptors are able to walk around in Paragon City... no one but hardcore Defender players will make one again.
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There's a strong possibility that whatever damage that blueside Corruptors and Masterminds might do to Defender popularity, Containment boosted Controllers have already done. If so, Going Rogue may not make Defenders any more unpopular than they already are. People will remember this "Corruptors/Masterminds will kill Defenders" argument, see that Defenders didn't get less popular, and conclude that Defenders must therefore be A-OK -- meanwhile forgetting all about what Containment boosted Controllers have been doing for years to Defender popularity.
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I guess a corollary to this might be that Corruptors might have more to worry about from Controllers going redside, than Defenders have to worry about from Corruptors and Masterminds going blueside.
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I dunno, Masterminds going blueside is liable to make for some interesting changes. Although I think that will be more to the uniqueness of the style and capabilities of MMs than comparing them to any other AT. |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
I guess a corollary to this might be that Corruptors might have more to worry about from Controllers going redside, than Defenders have to worry about from Corruptors and Masterminds going blueside.
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It will be funny to see all the petless Masterminds being told "Why don't you just create a Defender?" though.
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I wonder how true the thought is that "most" folks choose to cap Acc at 95% and vs. what level of enemies that may be true for.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Yes, although technically both Def debuffs and Res debuffs are offensive boosts, since most folks choose to cap Acc at 95% you really gain no more benefit beyond that point.
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I have a sneaky feeling, defense debuffs are worth a lot more in many PuG situations than people realize. I discount them a bit myself in forum conversation, because a lot of forumites build for capped Acc vs. +2s at least, but even with forumites I wonder if "most" applies.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It may not be universally true, but even the devs have said that most people consider missing to be an annoyance, to the extent that they complain when they miss more often than they are used to. Or even if they think they are missing more often than they are used to. That would seem to suggest that given the knowledge of how to accomplish it, most players would choose to make their chance of missing as low as possible. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I wonder how true the thought is that "most" folks choose to cap Acc at 95% and vs. what level of enemies that may be true for.
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I don't doubt that I'm more obsessive about it than the average. Accuracy gets priority over everything else to me, to the point where Accuracy is pretty much the only thing that I slot prior to 18 or so. I hate missing. Still, it takes only one Accuracy SO to go from a 75% chance to hit to a 95% chance to hit. So I don't think it's a question of does the average player have one Accuracy SO, it's whether he would have two or three.
The basic point is simpler than that, though. If you do not have enough damage to defeat the foe, even if you manage to hit it every single time, -Def can do nothing to help you. The same would be true of -Res if you were to miss every single time, but it is very rare to have a situation where you would miss that often.
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I agree, at least until people start planning for IOs, which tends to get accuracy in there in some fashion or another.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I have a sneaky feeling, defense debuffs are worth a lot more in many PuG situations than people realize. I discount them a bit myself in forum conversation, because a lot of forumites build for capped Acc vs. +2s at least, but even with forumites I wonder if "most" applies. |
Why? Because the common advice is one accuracy SO. That's fine against even cons or slightly above.
But who fights that way? Not the teams I find myself on.
The teams I pick up are generally underslotted toons that are trying to roll XP so fast that they dont take the time to build correctly at that point in time (most forum builds tend to be respec builds). In those situations, -def seems to go a long ways for me.
Rikti drones and Nemesis vengeance spammers.
That is all I have to say on the topic of late game defense debuffs. >.>
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Can we keep in mind that in a team a Defender is not usually going to have trouble dealing damage? Either there will be other Defenders on the team which can provide offensive buffs, or there will be other damage dealers that the Defender can let bring in the XP for him. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
The teams I pick up are generally underslotted toons that are trying to roll XP so fast that they dont take the time to build correctly at that point in time (most forum builds tend to be respec builds). In those situations, -def seems to go a long ways for me.
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As has been stated multiple times in this thread, a team of several Defenders is not in any way underpowered or in need of a damage boost. If anything, the damage capability of such a combination is why Defender solo damage is so low.
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Originally Posted by brophog02
I agree, at least until people start planning for IOs, which tends to get accuracy in there in some fashion or another.
Why? Because the common advice is one accuracy SO. That's fine against even cons or slightly above. But who fights that way? Not the teams I find myself on. The teams I pick up are generally underslotted toons that are trying to roll XP so fast that they dont take the time to build correctly at that point in time (most forum builds tend to be respec builds). In those situations, -def seems to go a long ways for me. |
Didn't think about this much until I made a dark defender. With all the bonus XP floating around the -def has a big benefit, especially in the lower levels when enhancements expire so quickly.
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I fail to see what that has to do with the portion you quoted.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Can we keep in mind that in a team a Defender is not usually going to have trouble dealing damage? Either there will be other Defenders on the team which can provide offensive buffs, or there will be other damage dealers that the Defender can let bring in the XP for him.
As has been stated multiple times in this thread, a team of several Defenders is not in any way underpowered or in need of a damage boost. If anything, the damage capability of such a combination is why Defender solo damage is so low. |
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1) The first post in this thread refers to the capabilities of a Kin/Ice and Rad/Rad Defender in taking on AVs and GMs while solo. The OP specifically says that he is good at building "support toons", but asks for help tweaking his build for solo damage. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
I fail to see what that has to do with the portion you quoted.
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2) The thread turns more towards the low base damage of Defenders in general, and its effect on Power Set combinations that lack offensive buffs or debuffs. The first post also suggests in the title the suggestion that perhaps Defender damage could be increased in some way.
3) The usefulness of Freezing Rain as a Res debuff is discussed. Macskull points out that the Res debuff in this power is more useful than the Def debuff.
4) I second his comment, by pointing out that in general, Def debuffs are in more demand to Defenders than Res debuffs. Like Macskull, I am talking about both the Defender's own expected to hit when it is solo, and when he is on a team.
5) StratoNexus questions how many people would actually hit that 95% to hit cap, given the spread of different types of players across the player base. I reply to that, and although I'm still speaking in general, I do note that if you do not have enough damage to defeat the foe even with 95% to hit, -Def won't do you any more good. While this can happen on a team, it's more likely to apply to the solo situation.
6) You reply to StratoNexus, supporting his argument with examples from your own experience.
7) I reply to you, but also in reply to StratoNexus, that this is really only in regards to the team portion of my argument, while I am also talking about the Defender's ability to deal damage while solo as well. Which is the main topic of the thread, the Defender's ability to deal damage while solo.
Does this clarify my response? I will also add what while -Def may be useful to a mixed team that may not be slotted for accuracy as well as the Defender, or which is going up against more difficult foes, in general the team will STILL prefer to see greater damage, through either a -Res or +Dam. Such an effect will ALWAYS result in more damage. The fact that -Def is useful when the players are still missing does not reduce the effectiveness of the -Res.
On my Rad Controller I chose Enervating Field over Radiation Infection for just this reason. I eventually got both, of course, but even though missing was a common complaint for a couple of teammates, I could be assured that Enervating Field would be effective in all cases. We also tend to run with teams that have low damage. (High on Tankers and Defenders)
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Thank you. I was referring just to defense -debuffs, and you quoted that part. That whole train of posts is hard to follow in this format. I stick to just quoting and referencing that quote, and using multiple quotes if necessary to track several posts. That's generally the way these non-nested boards work (certainly a downside to a nested or threaded format). |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Does this clarify my response? I will also add what while -Def may be useful to a mixed team that may not be slotted for accuracy as well as the Defender, or which is going up against more difficult foes, in general the team will STILL prefer to see greater damage, through either a -Res or +Dam. Such an effect will ALWAYS result in more damage. The fact that -Def is useful when the players are still missing does not reduce the effectiveness of the -Res. |
I never argued anything but -def's overlooked nature. -Res is generally the more valuable debuff (and certainly it is for well equipped toons), and part of what is being said down here is the underappreciation of -def, rather than any competitiveness between the two debuffs.
That said, of course, one needs to be able to hit its target for -res to do any good. There would be a breaking point where one aspect (accuracy) and the other aspect (more damage) would intersect at a balance point. I don't feel like, nor think it much benefit, to examine that math right now.
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....Or not taken at all. It is not uncommon for toons to not slot at all until DO levels, and I've known people to skate well into the teens before even doing that much. A lot of people just don't consider the pre-22 era much more than an extended tutorial, and therefore don't put much effort into doing anything but getting to 22 as fast as possible.|
Originally Posted by Peterbilt
Didn't think about this much until I made a dark defender. With all the bonus XP floating around the -def has a big benefit, especially in the lower levels when enhancements expire so quickly.
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Thankfully the adjustment was made a few issues ago to help with the accuracy problems at the low levels. The problem wasn't so much accuracy issues as it is the insistence for teams to play those levels well above their capabilities (which amplified their low damage, few attacks, poor endurance management and low accuracy. The accuracy adjustment helps, as does the addition of any -def powers at those levels by (mostly) defenders.
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Not a problem. I think we are in agreement there. No debuff should be overlooked. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
I never argued anything but -def's overlooked nature. -Res is generally the more valuable debuff (and certainly it is for well equipped toons), and part of what is being said down here is the underappreciation of -def, rather than any competitiveness between the two debuffs.
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Heck, I know there are times on both my Dark Defender and my Kin Controller where I have wished for a -Def.
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| That said, of course, one needs to be able to hit its target for -res to do any good. There would be a breaking point where one aspect (accuracy) and the other aspect (more damage) would intersect at a balance point. I don't feel like, nor think it much benefit, to examine that math right now. |
Another point to remember, though, is that while for the typical slotting of 1Acc, 3Dam you can always slot another Acc if you have trouble hitting, slotting additional Dam has no effect due to ED. So again, only -Res or +Dam can push you beyond that limit that the devs have imposed on how much damage a single attack can be slotted to deal. You can't push tohit beyond the 95% cap either, but that cap is also less predictable, and so harder to slot around.
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That's why I like Freezing Rain.........I get both!|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Not a problem. I think we are in agreement there. No debuff should be overlooked.
Heck, I know there are times on both my Dark Defender and my Kin Controller where I have wished for a -Def. |
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
Well, as I said, if you missed every single time, -Res would be of no advantage to you. However, since base to hit in PvE is 75%, and most foes are balanced around 50% Def = 100% Res, it is unlikely this value would ever go to zero, or even 25%. I agree that it is based around a multiplier where there is a maximum of Dam x ToHit, but I would not want to calculate it either.
Another point to remember, though, is that while for the typical slotting of 1Acc, 3Dam you can always slot another Acc if you have trouble hitting, slotting additional Dam has no effect due to ED. So again, only -Res or +Dam can push you beyond that limit that the devs have imposed on how much damage a single attack can be slotted to deal. |
While one can always slot more accuracy, you're not going to be in a mission and tell someone to go slot more accuracy, you're going to just keep playing. I think that is more where Strato wasn't getting at was not that you can't overcome that deficiency, but that in practical terms the teams you face may not have done so. In that case, -def is more important than our theory crafting here would otherwise suggest.
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While some may see it as something of a role niche for a Defender, I'm not fond of considering "really helpful to people who are so casual they don't slot effectively" a good goal for Defenders.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I wonder how true the thought is that "most" folks choose to cap Acc at 95% and vs. what level of enemies that may be true for.
I have a sneaky feeling, defense debuffs are worth a lot more in many PuG situations than people realize. I discount them a bit myself in forum conversation, because a lot of forumites build for capped Acc vs. +2s at least, but even with forumites I wonder if "most" applies. |
Long before IOs my standard was two accuracy SOs, not one, because that got me close to "hit capped" against +2 foes. I know there must be a lot of people who may not slot like that because they don't know better or something, but is it better to help them by defense debuffing foes, or helping them help themselves by educating them about better slotting options?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
QR<> I know the best and most non contraversal way to do it just port fire blast
/end thread
-def is way more valuable than most are giving credit for. It is exceedingly potent in the 1-22 game even with the low level boost implemented. It lets you comfortably fight things that would otherwise be very difficult.
It is also quite valuable in later game too with the new difficulty system.
That said, our base tohit chance is too high creating a very low ceiling for the amount of valuable -def. I can only assume that some of these powers have such high -def numbers for a reason, but to only be using a fraction of their debuff value across practically all scenarios just seems like a waste of programming space.
Things like -res and +dam have high enough useful caps beyond what we normally experience, but -def comes in such high numbers that having multiple sources of it becomes redundant after a single application.
But up to about 15-20% -def is awesome on most teams and really makes a tangible difference.
As for defender damage, I like defenders as they currently are. Not every problem should be solved by throwing more damage at it, even though that is the go to "solution" that everyone presents for every single gripe they have in this game.
More encounters where the higher buff/debuff value of a defender is clearly superior to that of a troller/corr/mm would be a great start.
Though "content" isn't a strong suite of PS, so I guess asking for more unnecessary damage is the best approach.
I've thought on this ever since I came back and learned of ED.
My poor Dark Miasma/Elec Blast has to get quite an overhaul,
so i slotted it up for controls and got as much buffing as I
could with a greta deal offocus on damage. Standing up to
Giant monsters is nice, not being able to kill them, kind of
defeats geting all those buffs.
Anyways I have one statement about balance.
It seems to me that no mater what powers an AT has, they
can only use so many of them at once. Discounting IO's for
instance as I was under the impression the Devs told us they
do when considering game challenge.
A defender while on a team spends most of their time buffing
or debuffing usually. This what they are good at at least.
But when soloing,alot of those buffs and debuffs are not as
useful and get in tehw ay of dealing damage. I think one of
the reasons controllers solo better is because their forms of
deterrant for enemies allow them to strike more often or even
to damage their enemy while mezzing them etc.
So here is what I do not see being take into account, the loss
of damage that occurs while a defender is buffing/debuffing.
Also,if the defender is focussing on damage, there is a loss in
buffing and debuffing. Now it is true toggles allows the defender
to benefit from their priamry and secondary at the same time,
but these powers are never cheap endurance wise. But even the
toggle heavy radiation set has clicks to inetrfer with use of a
secondary.
With the two powersets competing with eachother how is balance
lost by making defenders do more damage?
oh and one other thing a team of defenders is strong, but a team
of any one AT is strong. collectively a team of tankers with damage
auras is going to be strong. 8 blasters do ungodly damage etc etc.
why is a large amount of defenders being on a team singled out?
Anyone who says they play defenders and think they play exactly like they expect obviously hasnt spent that much time playin defenders.
Dominators needed a damage boost as well. Sayin that they got a nerf instead means either 1 of 2 things.
1. You didnt play dominators much either
OR
2. You were a fire/psi and got pissed that they nerfed PS.