Upping Defender Damage

Garent · 10-13-2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricHough

Well, the introduction of VEATs does show that the dev's are willing to design an AT that can solo AND contribute to a group

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that VEATs are balanced with the other archetypes.

Stardrive · 10-14-2009 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brophog02

Last time you checked, you must have been playing a different game. Archetypes in this game do a bit of both, including tanks, defenders, and controllers.

Exactly why I asked this question.

Granted alot of classes have gone through some serious nerfs/mods. HOWEVER, Dark/Dark and Rad/Rad Defenders both USED TO be known as AV killers. I'm not sure if that's changed due to nerfs OR them simply no longer being the "flavor of the month" like Kins are now. I *do* know Sentinel of Twilight on the Virtue server however and she can solo anything this side of Reichsman in the game. Of course, she's a walking purple proc too, lol.

So yes, contrary to the one infantile and ignorant negative reputation feedback that was left on my initial post, some classes can multitask.

I was simply looking for general ideas to get my damage a bit closer to a Blaster's or Corr's so I can solo a bit easier. Other than the obvious stuff like 6 slotting every attack power, lol. There is Twi's route, but I'd like to be more effective soloing without spending multiple billions of influence on my build. Guess I'll have to find some sets with decent damage bonuses, rely on Assault and buffs/debuffs.

As far as enjoying the class, I actually do quite a bit. My Defenders are world class support toons also. Kinetic Chill and my Corruptor Kinetic Nightmare in particular had outstanding reps when I'd bother to farm with them.

It's just nice to be able to solo at times without having it take forever to clear the map.

Stardrive · 10-14-2009 05:19 AM

Hmmm, somebody is lacking reading/listening skills.

All *I* was asking about is if anybody knew any tricks (ie good sets for a given defender class) that will help push the damage up and make them more effective soloing. See above post.

If you can't debate on the facts though, resort to childish name calling though I suppose, huh?

And for the record, I've been playing off and on since issue one, have a 30 month veteran badge coming in a few days, and have learned from some of the best players in the game on MOST Arches. While none of my toons have any purple sets yet due to altitius and liking to explore tons of different power set combinations, I'd wager I'm better than 75 to 80% of the players out there.

Airhammer · 10-14-2009 05:34 AM

Corruptors have Scourge..

nuff said...

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

tarrantm · 10-14-2009 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brophog02

As I said in another thread, any disparity adjustment would need to come from bringing controllers down, not Defenders up. I've never seen anything to suggest Defender primary effects were anything but on the very high side as it is.

I don't think bringing down 'troller secondaries (other than maybe /Kin) is a valid solution considering the existence of Masterminds and Corruptors with GR on the horizon. I honestly don't think bluebies have been sufficiently exposed to the 'fender primaries in the hands of competent MMs and Corrs to even entertain such an idea. I can't wait to bring across my 10+ MMs (and Brutes and VEATs) to blueside once GR hits (because redside is so deserted and the few people I play with on redside plan to do the same). Expect to see the real shortcomings of 'fender secondaries highlighted once that happens.

Fury Flechette · 10-14-2009 07:33 AM

I like the idea that an earlier poster mentioned about giving defenders the same inherent as blasters, defiance 2.0. I think that would solve a multitude of problems, giving a solo defender more damage and allowing them to do something when mezzed. A team oriented inherent isn't really that necessary since defenders already function well on a team with a suspect inherent.

As for defender damage, I think that most posters would agree that unless you're playing sonic blast, defender damage is somewhat lacking. Sure there are exceptions. If using a ton of damage procs you could reach a dps over time that is somewhat respectable, but for players who use SOs or generic IOs only, this wouldn't be their experience.

As for problem of damage multiplication on teams, I submit that the only way you'd see an overall buff to defender secondaries is if you dealt with the one outlier: sonic blast. It would have to be normalized (dare I say nerfed) so it wouldn't so vastly outperform other sets. I'd probably suggest lowering its -res value for either a higher overall base or an inherent such as defiance.

Sailboat · 10-14-2009 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stardrive

I was simply looking for general ideas to get my damage a bit closer to a Blaster's or Corr's so I can solo a bit easier.

I can see why you feel the Corruptor competes too closely with Defenders, but I don't get the Blaster comparison. OF COURSE Blasters do tons of damage; it's all they've got, really (excepting minor controls here and there). Blasters want some more survivability and would love Defender buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stardrive

Other than the obvious stuff like 6 slotting every attack power, lol. There is Twi's route, but I'd like to be more effective soloing without spending multiple billions of influence on my build. Guess I'll have to find some sets with decent damage bonuses, rely on Assault and buffs/debuffs.

I also don't understand the "6-slotting every attack power" comment. Six-slotting your attacks is standard for damage-dealing ATs. It goes without saying that's the first thing you should do for damage, and it's superfluous to bring it up here....unless...are you saying you want to solo farm without slotting your attacks?

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

Sailboat · 10-14-2009 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stardrive

OK, I saw a couple of semi-related threads, but I figured I'd throw out a more general question on tips for defender damage.

I can build incredibly powerful support defenders, but DPS always seems anemic on all my defender toons. My 50 Kinetic/Ice defender can literally solo tank Jurrasik indefinitely (went at him for a half hour once just for fun), but even throwing FS and Siphon Power constantly, I can't even scratch him.

Lots of ATs can't scratch, much less take down, Jurassik. And be careful about demanding an increase in damage for a Kinetics user -- Fulcrum Shift is hands-down the single most overpowered power in the game right now.

If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------

The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

Peterbilt · 10-14-2009 09:57 AM

This thread is full of WIN. Can I add to the wish list? I want my defender to have defenses like a tank, hit like a blaster, controller pets plus all the defender primaries and bonuses and, just because I can ask, add an automatic recharge bonus so we can get all our attacks of faster than all the other ATs. I think Defenders deserve this because, hey, we're tired of only being support and having scrappers laugh at our DPS. Come on, we're defenders. If you want damage, play a blaster, or scrapper, or controller, they all can do lots of damage.

But seriously, to the OP, I would look into +damage bonus IOs. Once you max out your damage bonus these can tack on a few extra on the top. (And Assault, but that was already said elsewhere.) Can't think of what some of those IOs are without searching but check Wiki for some idea. But even with those bonuses some primaries/secondaries will never be damage producers. But they have so many other abilities that compensate. In a group they can MoSTF, it's just we will never be able to effectively turn up the difficulty for soloing. Hope that helps some.

And now you may all go back to your idle chatter.

Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity

Jade_Dragon · 10-14-2009 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by je_saist

One of the tips that pops up every-now and then on the loading screen is something to the effect of : Not all archtypes are built to solo

Name the other archetypes that are not built to solo.

Controllers? That's essentially the argument. Most Defender players argue that Controllers, another so-called "support class", has a much better Inherent designed specifically to help it solo.

Corruptors? The concept of Corruptors is they are supposed to be Defenders with blasts as their Primary. They are supposed to be able to deal damage, and thus solo.

Masterminds? Don't make me laugh.

The loading screen tip comes down to "Defenders are not built to solo. So quit complaining about it". And the loading screen tips were mostly written by players, not the devs. (They were suggested in a thread in this forum)

tarrantm · 10-14-2009 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peterbilt

This thread is full of WIN. Can I add to the wish list? I want my defender to have defenses like a tank, hit like a blaster, controller pets plus all the defender primaries and bonuses and, just because I can ask, add an automatic recharge bonus so we can get all our attacks of faster than all the other ATs. I think Defenders deserve this because, hey, we're tired of only being support and having scrappers laugh at our DPS. Come on, we're defenders. If you want damage, play a blaster, or scrapper, or controller, they all can do lots of damage.

Play a Crab yet? softcapped def, damage, group buffs, mob debuffs, self-heal, pets.

Then again, if VEATs were the standard that all other ATs were measured against, the only ATs that would compare would be controllers and masterminds. That, however, does not mean that 'trollers and MMs need to be beat with the nerfbat. It's just an indication of the potential changes necessary for other support ATs before GR goes live.

Peterbilt · 10-14-2009 10:31 AM

I have played a Crab but haven't gotten past lvl 18. Just got too involved with a scrapper build I really wanted to play. Krabby Patty, the Irish Arcanos soldier, will just have to wait a little while longer.

Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity

Southern_Comfort · 10-14-2009 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fury Flechette

I like the idea that an earlier poster mentioned about giving defenders the same inherent as blasters, defiance 2.0. I think that would solve a multitude of problems, giving a solo defender more damage and allowing them to do something when mezzed. A team oriented inherent isn't really that necessary since defenders already function well on a team with a suspect inherent.

As for defender damage, I think that most posters would agree that unless you're playing sonic blast, defender damage is somewhat lacking. Sure there are exceptions. If using a ton of damage procs you could reach a dps over time that is somewhat respectable, but for players who use SOs or generic IOs only, this wouldn't be their experience.

As for problem of damage multiplication on teams, I submit that the only way you'd see an overall buff to defender secondaries is if you dealt with the one outlier: sonic blast. It would have to be normalized (dare I say nerfed) so it wouldn't so vastly outperform other sets. I'd probably suggest lowering its -res value for either a higher overall base or an inherent such as defiance.

Wow... just WOW. This whole thread reminds me painfully of the Dominator boards a few months back.Complete with the above comment calling for a nerf to sonic(in my mind similar to comments about /psi for dominator's.) The only difference being that /psi wasn't performing as the power was intended and /sonic IS.(FF? I quoted yours because of the sonic comment. In no way does the rest of this post apply to you).

I popped on to the defender boards because I have recently made a new defender. I like to read the boards and garner player opinion on archetypes that I play. Imagine my surprise to find the same group of people that showed up on the Dominator boards a few months ago and then beat a hasty retreat off the dom boards as soon as they managed to accomplish a Dominator Buff(Nerf imo).

Hey Castle? If you happen to be reading this thread please do note the same Dominator EXPERTS are now Defender EXPERTS and use good judgement when reading( take all the posts with a grain of salt and a little common sense rather than believing these guys//gals actually invest enough time in game and off the forums to know wth they are talking about).

As someone not new to defenders, but by no means having logged enough playtime with multiple defender powersets,the defenders I do have are enjoyable and play just as I expected. I like the need for a little creativity to solo and love what my defenders bring to teams.
I am sick and tired of the witch hunt for normalization across all AT's. All archetypes are NOT created equal. Get over it.

Jade_Dragon · 10-14-2009 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by je_saist

I can see some number crunchers saying Defenders would be over-powered by bringing the damage numbers up to within 30% of blasters attacks... actually making them Medium to the Blasters High. I'm not so sure. I'd like to imagine that at some point the text listing for Defender damage was accurate and that Jack had something to do with so little damage.

Originally the damage modifier of Defenders was 0.75, while Blasters was 1.0. Defender damage was 75% of Blasters', exactly as concieved of by the Primary/Secondary concept. By comparison, Scrapper damage was also 1.0, while Tanker was 0.70, not exactly 0.75, but probably it had been tweaked slightly in early Beta.

By the end of Beta, a group of Blasters got together and demonstrated that with Enervating Field and Accelerate Metabolism, a Rad Defender could do MORE damage than a Blaster. Note that this was back when you could six slot damage for 300% damage. Even so, between the 25% boost to base damage from AM, and the 30% Res debuff, the numbers came out to a Defender doing about 16% more damage than a Blaster.

This is what resulted in the base modifier of a Defender being lowered to its current 0.65. And this was prior to Blaster (and Scrapper) damage modifier being raised to 1.125, and the addition of Inherents, which add damage to all ATs except for Tankers and Defenders.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, this offensive boost DOES count towards the Defender's Medium damage, if it has access to it. Which is why I feel that all Buff/Debuff sets, across the board, should have at least one power which will boost damage by 30%. It can only boost the caster's damage, like Pain Domination, if the devs are worried about the effect on a large team. But the issue is not Defenders doing low damage, it is CERTAIN Defenders and Controllers doing extreme damage, and other Defenders not being able to achieve the same results.

Jade_Dragon · 10-14-2009 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort

Wow... just WOW. This whole thread reminds me painfully of the Dominator boards a few months back.

This argument has been going on a lot longer than it was going on with Dominators. It has been going on longer than Dominators have been around. It was going on back in CoH Beta.

As I mentioned, the issue isn't really Defenders versus any other AT. There are Defenders that do tons of damage. SOME Defenders. The disparity, IMHO, is between those Defenders that have the ability to boost their damage, and those Defenders that lack that ability because of their choice of Primary and/or Secondary.

The issue is not really doing Blaster levels of damage. But since a Defender would need a 73% damage boost to do that much damage (just in terms of base modifier) I think we're a long way from that.

Southern_Comfort · 10-14-2009 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricHough

Then do us a favor and stay out of the thread. I get that you love defenders just as they are. I see no problem if we can come up with changes that won't affect the way you play them and will allow those of us who can't stand them currently to enjoy playing them.

Sorry to double post. But the above comment was the EXACT same comment made on the dominator boards( albeit possibly by a different poster).

Frakken de ja vu', meng.

Southern_Comfort · 10-14-2009 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon

This argument has been going on a lot longer than it was going on with Dominators. It has been going on longer than Dominators have been around. It was going on back in CoH Beta.

As I mentioned, the issue isn't really Defenders versus any other AT. There are Defenders that do tons of damage. SOME Defenders. The disparity, IMHO, is between those Defenders that have the ability to boost their damage, and those Defenders that lack that ability because of their choice of Primary and/or Secondary.

The issue is not really doing Blaster levels of damage. But since a Defender would need a 73% damage boost to do that much damage (just in terms of base modifier) I think we're a long way from that.

You're a nerf herder that expects a so'd out anything to perform the same as a specced out build. You know?No offense. But a so'd out build shouldn't perform the same.Players that put in the extra time and effort to reach their build goals should be rewarded by better performance on their character. Not be nerfed into oblivion so the guy that logs in for 2 hours a week and spends no time investment on his character reaps the same reward.

The quote above is how you lead off in the Dom forums too.Bottomline is what I typed right up there^^^. In my first paragraph.

Jade_Dragon · 10-14-2009 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort

You're a nerf herder

Really? Please indicate where I have called for a nerf. It was my suggestion to ADD an offensive bonus to Buff/Debuff sets that lack one. In what way would that be a nerf?

And I haven't mention SOs or IOs either. There was the poster that suggested using IOs that raise damage. A suggestion that I second, in fact. Such global buffs are not going to majorly change the performance of the Defender's blasts, though. Not enough to turn Force Field into Rad, anyway.

Biospark · 10-14-2009 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon

Originally the damage modifier of Defenders was 0.75, while Blasters was 1.0. Defender damage was 75% of Blasters', exactly as concieved of by the Primary/Secondary concept. By comparison, Scrapper damage was also 1.0, while Tanker was 0.70, not exactly 0.75, but probably it had been tweaked slightly in early Beta.

By the end of Beta, a group of Blasters got together and demonstrated that with Enervating Field and Accelerate Metabolism, a Rad Defender could do MORE damage than a Blaster. Note that this was back when you could six slot damage for 300% damage. Even so, between the 25% boost to base damage from AM, and the 30% Res debuff, the numbers came out to a Defender doing about 16% more damage than a Blaster.

This is what resulted in the base modifier of a Defender being lowered to its current 0.65. And this was prior to Blaster (and Scrapper) damage modifier being raised to 1.125, and the addition of Inherents, which add damage to all ATs except for Tankers and Defenders.

The problem is, as others have pointed out, this offensive boost DOES count towards the Defender's Medium damage, if it has access to it. Which is why I feel that all Buff/Debuff sets, across the board, should have at least one power which will boost damage by 30%. It can only boost the caster's damage, like Pain Domination, if the devs are worried about the effect on a large team. But the issue is not Defenders doing low damage, it is CERTAIN Defenders and Controllers doing extreme damage, and other Defenders not being able to achieve the same results.

Thank you for this Post ! To the point, and completely relevant

BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

Southern_Comfort · 10-14-2009 12:04 PM

Easy to say that now. Just wait until he comes in with which sets need reworking to be brought inline in order to create an AVERAGE median for every set in the archetype. Don't say I didn't warn y'all. I'll check back in a few pages to say 'Told you so."

Myrmydon · 10-14-2009 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by je_saist

One of the tips that pops up every-now and then on the loading screen is something to the effect of : Not all archtypes are built to solo

The defender Archtype really isn't built to be a solo class. Yes, there are some can can tweak their powers with IO's and come up with a build that can reliably solo. Yes, upping the damage to fit what's advertised would also help defenders to solo.

However, the devs have proven in the past they'll take drastic measures (like turning Defiance off on Blasters) to force archtypes to fit into the envisioned rolls. So while a lot of players realize that negligence desperately needs a rework... I highly doubt any anti-mez or the like is in there. Any rework to a defender's inherent is probably going to be very much focused on teaming.

In the same way, I somewhat doubt that the devs will up defender damage. I would expect them to just re-label the damage to low and just leave the class alone.

We'll see what gets fixed after Corruptors are able to walk around in Paragon City. My guess that, without and changes to the Defender AT, the only Defender sets played 6 month to a year after Going Rogue goes live are Empathy, Force Field, and Kinetics (Speed Boost at level 12 will keep it alive for this AT).

They need to turn up the fun factor on Defenders or, aside from the aformentioned powersets, no one but hardcore Defender players will make one again.

"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon

"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight

Jade_Dragon · 10-14-2009 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort

Easy to say that now. Just wait until he comes in with which sets need reworking to be brought inline in order to create an AVERAGE median for every set in the archetype. Don't say I didn't warn y'all. I'll check back in a few pages to say 'Told you so."

These personal attacks are getting tiresome. If you want to know what I have always recommended, you can just do a search. I believe that Force Field and Empathy specifically need offensive boost aspects added to a few of their powers, nothing that breaks the Cottage Rule, just an addition to an existing power. The current Pain Domination is an excellent example.

A few other sets that have only a duration based Res Debuff might use additional effects, but it would depend on what datamining has to say. I certainly would not recommend removing anything. (Not that I ever made any such recommendations in the Dominator forums, my participation started after the changes had already been made. Outside of an early objection to Castle's "more control, less damage" idea for Domination)

PHlRE · 10-14-2009 12:18 PM

come on Jade, ought to know better than to take something personally here!
Biospark was right - your previous reply basically contained all what needed to be said....

This is sig worthy.....

"But the issue is not Defenders doing low damage, it is CERTAIN Defenders and Controllers doing extreme damage, and other Defenders not being able to achieve the same results."
~ Jade Dragon

Jade_Dragon · 10-14-2009 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myrmydon

My guess that, without and changes to the Defender AT, the only Defender sets played 6 month to a year after Going Rogue goes live are Empathy, Force Field, and Kinetics (Speed Boost at level 12 will keep it alive for this AT).

I honestly don't think that Corruptors are that much better off. They only have about 15% more damage, and offensively speaking that's kind of countered by the Defenders having better buffs. They have Scourge, but I still don't think anyone is going to be saying "We don't need a Blaster, we have a Corruptor on the team". They may even end up being treated the same as Defenders, "they're a support class, they can't do as much damage as a Blaster, so they shouldn't waste their time blasting".

Force Field and Empathy, while they are the only sets Corruptors don't share, will also encourage those Defenders to be seen more as support. Not to mention that there will be Force Field Controllers and Masterminds available.

The main advantage of Corruptors is as they are more solo capable, there will be more players who will be able to get them to high level through a combination of soloing and grouping. This is already true of the so-called "Offenders" anyway, though.

Garent · 10-14-2009 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stardrive

Guess I'll have to find some sets with decent damage bonuses, rely on Assault and buffs/debuffs.

Damage set bonuses are not the way to go when trying to up your solo damage with the invention system. I suggest taking most of your area attacks and proccing them out then playing on -1 or +0 with the number of enemies set to -at least- x3. Use cosmic burst and procced out neutrino bolt to finish off enemies.