I'm all for it.
Might give some of my characters a reason to pay attention to insps again...
But I am a +recharge junkie.
Even on my Ill/Kin 'troller, who has Hasten and currently about a 35% global recharge passively.. all other slots could be kins, as well.. and I would STILL want MOAR RECHARGE!
Just to play devil's advocate, I'd like to think of counter-arguments, but there aren't really any coming to mind right now.
I can't really think of this as balance-breaking. The current inspirations aren't balance-breaking, either, they only give you an edge in combat and allow most of my toons to tackle EBs evenly even if they're not built optimally. If +recharge sticks to the same conventions as other Inspirations, which is to say, just give you an edge in combat, it should be okay.
Plus, a higher recharge always means you'll burn through endurance, faster, so with that bit of a drawback, it also should be easier to justify.
Like it can see one little problem though and it's a biggie...
What COLOUR would it be 
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I disagree. |
Originally Posted by Noxilicious
I can't really think of this as balance-breaking.
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Notice how the newer Tier 9's are becoming immune to buffs and enhancements? Recharge speed can make certain toons nearly godly. If I had recharge inspirations, I'd run around never leaving Force of Nature on a Blaster. I don't know about you, but I consider that kind of thing as affecting balance adversely.
There are certain powers that are balanced in part around never becoming perma, even with Recharge IOs.
There is a reason that things Kins and recharge based IOs are at the top of the heap in this game. Recharge is gamebreaking and the players know it.
It is easy to get recharge in this game. Just team. Any full team these days seems to have an Emp, Kin or Rad on it.
That's not a coincidence.
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While that's true enough, you could just exclude them from being effected by Recharge Inspirations and preserve the balance on those kinds of powers.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
Notice how the newer Tier 9's are becoming immune to buffs and enhancements? Recharge speed can make certain toons nearly godly. If I had recharge inspirations, I'd run around never leaving Force of Nature on a Blaster. I don't know about you, but I consider that kind of thing as affecting balance adversely.
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As far as 'just teaming' is concerned, depending on the team, I get damage buffs, accuracy buffs, defense buffs, resistance buffs, heals, endurance, mez protection and if I ever lose all my HP, I can get rezzed.
This is strictly my own play-style, but when I'm on a team, I am less likely to use inspirations. Depending on team-make-up and competence, you'll plow through most mobs with relative ease. I usually use inspirations when I'm on small teams or solo and I'm struggling to pull through, or to give me an edge against an EB.
On that note, Speed Boost and Accelerated Metabolism also come with +Recovery, meaning that the +Recharge won't have any adverse effects. A +Recharge inspiration wouldn't effect your Recovery, meaning you'll operate at a quicker pace, but at the risk of early burn-out.
Also, there's no saying at which point a +recharge bonus is akin to other inspirations and where it starts being game-breaking. I don't think anyone will demand a +100% or even a +50% increase, but how about a 5%, 7.5%, 10% increase for small, medium and large Recharge inspirations? Depending on balance-issues, those would be higher or lower, of course. I didn't do any number-crunching and I know nothing hard on game-design, so I can only make lucky guesses on numbers.
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Except you can't lump Empaths in to the +recharge group.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
It is easy to get recharge in this game. Just team. Any full team these days seems to have an Emp, Kin or Rad on it.
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Empaths have one high tier power that has +recharge, that few actually even take, and it takes too long to recharge so they can't put it on the whole team.
Since the release of combat numbers, I have never noticed myself getting +recharge from an empath.
that aside, +recharge is no more game breaking than +recovery or +regen
+recharge means your attacks cycle faster.
+recovery means your endurance regenerates faster, leading to no toggle drops.
+regeneration means your health regenerates faster, leading to a decreased likeyhood of dying.
Then of course theres's +res, +def, +dam, +acc...
What leads to "broken" is multiple factors, and even then it's not really broken, just an extremely powerful combination. Speed Boost + Accelerate Metabolism + a bubbler, the entire team is going to be a powerhouse..
But, no more so than a team of VEATs/Masterminds stacking leadership buffs. Ever seen a team where everyone had a +100% damage and a 95% chance to hit +5s?
Yes, you could carry around nothing but +recharge inspirations, and pop them at the right timing to keep yourself perma hastened. But you'd only be able to do that a few times in a mission, even once you have 20 inspiration slots*.
Easily balanced through recharge amount and duration
Doesn't seem that much worse to me than being able to carry nothing but damage inspirations, and burning them to reach the damage cap.
*Small inspirations are usually what? 12%? However, for this example I'll say they are +20%, We have to presume the use of small, due tot he fact that you can't readily buy the larger ones that I know of. For the sake of this arguments I'm also going to go with a SoA with a few IO sets on them. (something most any player could achieve.)
My global recharge is a base of +50% (+20% Mental Training, +30% IO sets), I have Hasten, which is 3 slotted for recharge to give it a +95% recharge speed.
Therefor when I activate hasten my global recharge is +120%, and hasten is at +215%.
I would have to pop 5 +20% inspirations to get hasten perma'd. Presuming, of course, that the inspirations last as long, or longer than Hasten.
That means 4 times a mission, or a total of 8 minutes worth of permahaste, at the cost of ALL your inspirations.
Make them craftable only (no drops, no combining to create them). Make them silver/grey in color. Don't ask me about recipe drop scenarios...I just want to finally create inspirations.
"But inspirations aren't corporeal! They're just concepts!" Tell me you've never been inspired by a written work, or movie. I see no reason why an article or story written by your character can't inspire other heroes.
With those conditions, I'm all aboard!
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GURPLE of course.
Originally Posted by Heart Attack
Like it can see one little problem though and it's a biggie...
What COLOUR would it be
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
I don't feel that Global Recharge Inspires are balanced, and I addressed some solutions for that in this suggestion a couple of weeks ago.
In short, enhancing global recharge through a stackable Inspire would end up being pretty broken. Too many powers would have to be changed so that they couldn't be abused with them.
Just like IO sets with recharge bonuses, these Inspires would instantly become the "best" and no one would want anything else and prices would skyrocket on the market.
I'm not downing your suggestion just because I like mine better. I really feel the Inspiration system needs a boost, but Global Recharge isn't the answer.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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You bet I can include it. They have access to it, so I can add it. A lot do take it, particularly with the popularity of "pure healers" out there. My blasters get it from high level emps all of the time. My observation there aside, the fact they have access to it obviously means they have access to it, and therefore is includable in my statement. |
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
Except you can't lump Empaths in to the +recharge group.
Empaths have one high tier power that has +recharge, that few actually even take, and it takes too long to recharge so they can't put it on the whole team. |
Who do you think you are telling me what I can't do or not do? When they name you forum dictator, I'll give you the memo. Until then, save your pointless rhetoric and try to examine this issue with a clear head.
First, try to think of why an effect everyone wants so much isn't an inspiration yet, when the other primary balance metrics are, and have long been, inspirations. You've already admitted a bias, try to at least overcome that for a moment and think of reasons why this isn't a good idea (I've presented one). Nobody takes suggestions in this board seriously if it is all greedy persons who want it because it is good, without serious discussion.
That's why 99.99999999% of this board is total crap. Most of it is just ill thought of greed.
Oh man yes these would be awesome.
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Originally Posted by Noxilicious
While that's true enough, you could just exclude them from being effected by Recharge Inspirations and preserve the balance on those kinds of powers.
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You would have to do that with so many powers, and as we've seen with any of the new things the devs have done recently, they're not the quickest at preventing player exploits.
Even when they think they're preventing the exploits. That's why in these kinds of threads you desperately need someone to take the unpopular side to weed out the problems.
Have you ever played with a Plant troller? Its comically easy because seeds is always up. The only time it isn't comically easy is when you're fighting something like nemesis or when you aggro too much.
Now imagine every troller like that.
That was nerfed once for a reason. The only real limiter from it happening now is the price of recharge based IOs and sets, and that price is so high because recharge is such a vital aspect. Why have any other attack when all you need is Headsplitter! That's why recharge is already gamebreaking. The problem is really that so many people don't know what gamebreaking even is! +4/8 on many teams isn't the challenge setting, it is the norm!
We're past gamebreaking, and this adds just another level onto that.
Not to mention the fact this idea doesn't get you back that power you need, necessarily. The drag and drop idea someone proposed might do that, but not necessarily a global recharge buff.
Unless you choose to exploit it, that is, and the people in this game have proven themselves time and time again that they will exploit such things.
In this thread, people have made the comparison to other insps, and all I got to say is that they do not understand how this game works. If you're building a toon, you don't go for the +Dam IOs, you go for the +recharge IOs (which is why those sets are so much more expensive than anything similar). Recharge is more valuable than +Dam, globally, because of the disparity in the power of the attacks. Archery and Fire blasters are two more great examples of this where they add enough +recharge to get down to just Blazing/Blaze as their attack chain. In those two examples, that power is already at about twice the strength as the next most powerful ST attack. That disparity is what makes +recharge so good.
We could go on and on finding problems like this if we chose to do so, and I'm actually rather shocked more people aren't looking at this from both sides. +Recharge is a nice aspect but one needs to realize the reason why it is highly in demand is because it has such an enormous impact on the game as a whole. +Dam is limited by how much the original power did. +Recovery can't get you those big powers back, and relatively few sets run into endurance problems post 22, unless recharge is also highly boosted. +ACC hits a limiting factor rather quickly. +Recharge, however, turns complete powersets into isolated powers and has a cascading impact on the game as a whole. That's why people want it so much.
If I always had every power I ever needed, what is the balance metric in this game? How would I ever die? The game is fundamentally balanced on resource limitation (Do I have the power recharged and do I have the endurance to use it).
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Let's see:|
Originally Posted by brophog02
First, try to think of why an effect everyone wants so much isn't an inspiration yet, when the other primary balance metrics are, and have long been, inspirations. You've already admitted a bias, try to at least overcome that for a moment and think of reasons why this isn't a good idea (I've presented one). Nobody takes suggestions in this board seriously if it is all greedy persons who want it because it is good, without serious discussion.
That's why 99.99999999% of this board is total crap. Most of it is just ill thought of greed. |
Negatives to +recharge enhancer:
Broken? No, see the post you quoted, but ignored all of it except the part not really related to this topic.
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..
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.... yeah, that's about all I got. that's about all anyone's got. Other than the "they would ruin the market", but that's only if they are strictly craft only, no drop/buy/combine.
Give them a 1 minute duration, and a +12.5, 25 and 50% recharge depending on size.
If you managed to fill your inventory with larges, and had 35% passive recharge (+70% hasten, +95% hasten only) recharge otherwise, you could then keep hasten perma'd for 10 minutes, as long as you worked it.
You would have no blues to combat the massive endurance drain you would most likely have, giving you a bit of a weakness.
Or, hey, imagine this idea.. they make them not stackable! That would render the "it's broken" comment pretty null.
Consider that the game currently allows you to achieve perma hasten. It takes some work to be sure, but you CAN through IOs achieve +135% global recharge. If they really considered +recharge to be that broken, would a global boost to recharge really be so readily available through so many IO sets. Including the purples, which offer a +10% global. What about Luck of the Gambler? +7.5% for a single enhancer.
I cannot honestly see a short term boost to recharge being ANY more of an issue than lesser permanent global boosts.
(Also, the reason I said not to include Empaths in the +recharge list is simple, they don't give +recharge often to anyone but blasters it seems (everyone who swears emapths use it is a blaster >.>) it's not a power like AM or SB that tends to be kept on the whole party.
Ergo it doesn't fall in to the category of "If you want +recharge, team with X"
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Okay, let's take a look at other balance metrics and how they relate to Inspirations. For example, mez protection. Tankers have it, Scrappers have it, some Defender primaries have it, Controllers can get it from secondaries or Epics. Blasters don't get it. The common factor seems to be that ATs with good range damage don't get mez protect and vice versa. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
In this thread, people have made the comparison to other insps, and all I got to say is that they do not understand how this game works. If you're building a toon, you don't go for the +Dam IOs, you go for the +recharge IOs (which is why those sets are so much more expensive than anything similar). Recharge is more valuable than +Dam, globally, because of the disparity in the power of the attacks. Archery and Fire blasters are two more great examples of this where they add enough +recharge to get down to just Blazing/Blaze as their attack chain. In those two examples, that power is already at about twice the strength as the next most powerful ST attack. That disparity is what makes +recharge so good.
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Clearly it would completely unbalance the game if a Blaster could get mez protection whenever they wanted it in insp form, right? Well, they *can*, and it doesn't seem to unbalance the game
Inspirations have their own built-in limits: you can only carry so many at a time, and when they run out you either have to go back to a contact store or hope the right ones drop. Nobody builds their whole playstyle around the assumption they will have a stock of a certain type of inspiration.
+Recharge is available by slotting powers, from IO sets, you can dedicate a power pick to Hasten, or you can team with one of various support sets that have it. Having it available in inspiration form would add new tactical options. No other kind of inspiration has supplanted the enhancements, power picks or teaming options that do the same thing, I fail to see why recharge insps would.
Character index
I dont like this idea you can make Rech's for anything 1s Spaming Knockout blow or MoG or any other godly power with long rech's
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Because obviously people would carry absolutely nothing but these, and ignore all other inspirations in favor of them, and pop them constantly....|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
+Recharge is available by slotting powers, from IO sets, you can dedicate a power pick to Hasten, or you can team with one of various support sets that have it. Having it available in inspiration form would add new tactical options. No other kind of inspiration has supplanted the enhancements, power picks or teaming options that do the same thing, I fail to see why recharge insps would.
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Ergo they would be broken. >.>
I got a great idea..
Let's introduce them, as NPC buyable only, nontransferable, and make them cost 1,000,000, 5,000,000 and 10,000,000 inf a piece. But offer +50%, +100% and +200% recharge for 2 minutes a shot >.>
This damn game has been needing an inf. sink, don't you think?
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but those empaths you mention that skip Adrenaline Boost? | Empaths have one high tier power that has +recharge, that few actually even take, and it takes too long to recharge so they can't put it on the whole team. |
They're idiots.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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This thread is full of that, isn't it.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not to put too fine a point on it, but those empaths you mention that skip Adrenaline Boost?
They're idiots. |
I can't ascertain if some people just are lacking in comprehension, or playing dumb to pull a fast one on the devs.
Probably a little bit of both, really.
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WTF kind of Empath skips Adrenalin Boost? O.o|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
Except you can't lump Empaths in to the +recharge group.
Empaths have one high tier power that has +recharge, that few actually even take, and it takes too long to recharge so they can't put it on the whole team. |
Even healers should like it; it's got a huge +regen buff.
Also, if you've got two Empaths each with Hasten and Adrenalin Boost, they can cast AB on each other to get perma AB (~82s recharge, 90s duration; well... you may end up with periods of ~36s downtime because you need a bit more recharge for perma Hasten). A full team of Empaths can certainly get AB on everyone
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
This suggestion won't happen, quite frankly. The limitations of the system for all powers are for +rech, cast time, and endurance cost. Do they give +end inspirations? Yes, of course. But do they give +recovery? No. Because that would mean you could keep spamming those high-cost powers indefinitely. +Recharge inspiration would trivialize another such limitation, which is that the 'big' powers take a while to come back. A regeneration scrapper could pack some +rech inspires for any time instant healing almost came down. Empaths would be scolded for not bringing +recharge for permanent RA's. So on. Yes, DOOM, I'm sure.
But this assumes that the +recharge would be stackable, and significant. The only way to make it NOT imbalancing would be to make the recharge boost small...and let's be honest, at that point it wouldn't be what the players wanted. Look at what happened with small orange inspirations.
Oh, and honestly? Purple inspires>most any others. Pop four and you pretty much can't die (playing well) for their duration. Think that throws the balance? Think of what could happen if players could make all their powers come back as well.
Now what I could see is a 'cleansing' inspiration, which would remove/give resistance to debuffs. Something that could be popped if you were slowed to a crawl, your armor mutilated by debuffs, or recharge speed destroyed.
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Recharge is more valuable than +Dam in IO sets because of the gross disparity of values available. Recharge bonuses vary from 2.5 to 10%. Damage bonuses vary from 1 to 3. That is why people build for Recharge, not Damage. |
Originally Posted by brophog02
If you're building a toon, you don't go for the +Dam IOs, you go for the +recharge IOs (which is why those sets are so much more expensive than anything similar). Recharge is more valuable than +Dam, globally, because of the disparity in the power of the attacks.
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If I could get 135% global damage buff from IOs, I damn well would go for it.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Recharge is more valuable than +Dam in IO sets because of the gross disparity of values available. Recharge bonuses vary from 2.5 to 10%. Damage bonuses vary from 1 to 3. That is why people build for Recharge, not Damage.
If I could get 135% global damage buff from IOs, I damn well would go for it. |
Aside from +recharge, and procs, what is there in IO sets that is REALLY worth having?
It's not because +recharge is so powerful (which I will admit, +recharge is powerful, I just don't feel it is game-breakingly so)
+recovery has a somewhat high demand.
+regen can be useful, but I believe is mostly sought after by those who naturally have a good regen and want to improve it.
+acc is nice and offers decent numbers. Problem is it's rarely needed.
+Damage is too low to be of any use.
Most of the defense/Resists are too low to be of any use without lots of stacking.
Effects like +heal, +sleep, +fear, etc. are all pretty low numbers so not all that useful, and even then, they're only really sought after by certain power sets within certain archtypes.
So how much people seek +recharge over all other bonuses from IO sets is not just because they're powerful.
It's because they gave the most universally useful 'stat' some of the best numbers in IO sets. +recharge is the only thing in IOs that matches 2 criteria: 1, anyone can make use of it. 2, even just a few sets provide a meaningful bonus.
My 'troller has like 5, maybe 6 IO sets slotted that give +recharge, and it's like she has another recharge SO in -every single power- (Like 36.25% IIRC). It would take 10-15 sets with +damage to be like another Damage SO in every single power, which would only have limited use to my 'troller since she's ill/kin (unless I am mistaken, pets do not benefit from global damage buffs.)
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What set bonuses do people go for aside from +rech? Um... +def. Seriously. You've got people making Blasters with 45% def nowadays.|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
Aside from +recharge, and procs, what is there in IO sets that is REALLY worth having?
... Most of the defense/Resists are too low to be of any use without lots of stacking. |
+res is less commonly sought (fewer available than +def, smaller values), but I've built a Brute (in Mids', not in the game) with 90% res to all (including Psionic and Toxic) while in Power Surge. Outside PS, he's at 61.71% Sm/Le, 38.6% Fi/Co, 90% En/Ps, 33.66% Ne, and 4.58% To. In PS, it would take more than 1,013.5% resistance debuffing to get his Energy resistance below the cap.
PS is on a 588.2s recharge (~70% rech), with neither recharge enhancements nor Hasten. The build concept (capped to all in PS) worked before purples and PvP IOs, but adding in Hecatomb and Shield Wall makes the build more gameplay-viable. (Previously, I had Dark Watcher's Despair slotted in the attacks... =/) Shuffling things around and making use of the City Traveler vet reward also allows for Energize
Click this DataLink to open the build!
The build has unfortunately gone overboard on the 2.5% recovery set bonus, but it's unavoidable to get the +psi resists.
And yes, Power Surge is slotted with 5 and a half Resistance enhancements. But that's required to keep the Toxic and Psionic resistance capped.
Edit: Come to think of it, those out of PS resistance values would be pretty nice against Arachnos, who are mostly Sm/Le/En/Ps, with a few small Toxic DoTs...
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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note the comment about lots of stacking.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
What set bonuses do people go for aside from +rech? Um... +def. Seriously. You've got people making Blasters with 45% def nowadays.
+res is less commonly sought (fewer available than +def, smaller values), but I've built a Brute (in Mids', not in the game) with 90% res to all (including Psionic and Toxic) while in Power Surge. Outside PS, he's at 61.71% Sm/Le, 38.6% Fi/Co, 90% En/Ps, 33.66% Ne, and 4.58% To. In PS, it would take more than 1,013.5% resistance debuffing to get his Energy resistance below the cap. PS is on a 588.2s recharge (~70% rech), with neither recharge enhancements nor Hasten. The build concept (capped to all in PS) worked before purples and PvP IOs, but adding in Hecatomb and Shield Wall makes the build more gameplay-viable. (Previously, I had Dark Watcher's Despair slotted in the attacks... =/) Shuffling things around and making use of the City Traveler vet reward also allows for Energize Click this DataLink to open the build! The build has unfortunately gone overboard on the 2.5% recovery set bonus, but it's unavoidable to get the +psi resists. And yes, Power Surge is slotted with 5 and a half Resistance enhancements. But that's required to keep the Toxic and Psionic resistance capped. Edit: Come to think of it, those out of PS resistance values would be pretty nice against Arachnos, who are mostly Sm/Le/En/Ps, with a few small Toxic DoTs... |
Most players lack the money to actually build IO'd out characters like that.
Any IO set bonus is pretty useful, if you slot enough of it of course. It's just a matter of availability vs. usefulness vs. number of people who can use it that puts a demand on things.
+def, sure if you decide to go after it, you can get some pretty damn good defenses going on a character, and unless you're def capped all the way around anyways, +def IS always decent to have for any character. But, it's going to take a lot of IOs to get a "worth while" amount of defense, especially since it's not even usually +def (all) but +def (specific)
+rech though, like I said, you can replicate having another +rech SO that isn't effected by diminishing returns in EVERY POWER, with 6 semi common sets. (Okay, so I DO have the LotG Proc on my ill/kin, but that's all that's "uber" >.>) And of course, you get the added benefit of having a few other things thrown in.
What other IO set bonuses can you get to a really nice useful level in 6 non-purple sets?
Like the title says: inspirations, that when popped, increase recharge speed for all your powers (the ones that can be sped up, that is - the same restrictions apply as Hasten and Speed Boost).
Sometimes you want to throw out attacks faster. Or maybe you're in a tough mission and you've used up your big guns and you need them back *fast*. Pop a few "speeds", and viola. A nice alternative to cramming Hasten into your build or carrying a pocket Kinetic around.
Yes, you could have perma-whatever just by carrying enough inspirations around. Currently, you *can* be perpetually at the damage cap by carrying enough reds, or have softcapped defenses by carrying enough purples, or not slot any accuracy and just carry yellows. None of those are viable tactics.
Discuss.
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