Discussed in the past.
General consensus: No
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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While I know this to be true, I forget WHY people didn't like the idea. Most everything else in this game lends itself to easy player-side customization... why would it be bad to "gimp" oneself by reducing your effective mitigation?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Discussed in the past.
General consensus: No |
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Well, that in itself is a reason. Although that's usually brought out when people are sayig 'Stop powers doing KB'.|
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
While I know this to be true, I forget WHY people didn't like the idea. Most everything else in this game lends itself to easy player-side customization... why would it be bad to "gimp" oneself by reducing your effective mitigation?
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The base thing is, KB are put in sets for a reason, mostly as mitigation. The peole who complain about the KB are not the ones playing KB characters, usually.
They are complaining because KB is, somehow, ruining the game for them. Emphasis on somehow.
We get everything from 'Oh, they spread the spawns out', to 'Oh, I cant tank when people KB the mobs.' Both of which are tripe. If the spawn gets spread out, it's hardly hard to move forward a bit and chase down the flying mobs. And, as a tanker myself, I've never found KB to be much of a problem when tanking. The mobs are so firmly aggroed that they just run straight back to me, and into a well overdue pounding.
People have this huge and unexplicable hang-up that 'KB is bad!' when really it's not. KB is like a temporary stun or hold. While a foe is splatted on its back, it cant do anything. Sure, w/e auras and shields it might have are still up, but it's still not attacking. Also, in some cases, it IS like a hold, especially when a foe gets stuck in the terrain, and cant do anything till it gets up, which can take some time.
KB might be a bit annoying to some people, at times, but usually because it disrupts the 'usual way they play'. In other words, they get taken out of their comfort zone.
Any decent team will simply power on, KB or not. Only on teams which rely heavily on their 'cookie cutter steamroller' does KB ever become 'a problem'. When, really, it's not. It's people being unable to cope with slight change that is the problem.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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While I see your point that about KB being in there to mitigate a power, if I as a play find it annoying and want to "waste" several slots making it remove that annoyance from myself why shouldn't I be able to?
After all I'm not forcing you to "ruin" your play by using -KB, you pay to play and can choose to ignore them same as I can choose to use them.
Yes KB has it's place and it can be used constuctively, but it can also be a nusance. Simply because you are happy with it doesn't mean everyone is and doesn't mean you are right to dismiss the idea.
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I think it would be nice to have the choice. However, I hope that the choice can be made in real-time combat rather than at the enhancement level. As you mentioned, you can't kb when you need it.|
Originally Posted by Heart Attack
The downside is slotting these stops you being able to get someone off you for a while.
I'm not sure I see an issue with slotting both +knockback and -knockback other than it seems a little pointless. |
First of all, there are powers that are simply kb without doing much damage, for example torrent and force bolt. Maybe these powers can be left as it is. There are powers that do significant damage with kb. Very often, we just want to do damage with these powers and kb is an unintended effect. I think it would be nice if we can click the power to kd, but shift-click to kb, then it would add a lot of tactical value to the power. Here, click and shift-click are just examples, they can be bound to other keys. I would still want +kb enhancements (and maybe -kb as well), and they control the distance of kb.
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Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
While I know this to be true, I forget WHY people didn't like the idea. Most everything else in this game lends itself to easy player-side customization... why would it be bad to "gimp" oneself by reducing your effective mitigation?
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I did a search for - KB and - Knockback before I posted the original suggestion and didn't find anything. Just tried one for -Knockback and found one from September, some good comments especially about specific powers. Looks like this thread isn't needed, my appologies.
Just one thought, how do you use bonfire effectly without getting kicked from the team?
giggle. It's ok. The suggestion comes up often. Unless there is a sticky about this, I believe it will come up again and again. Since we can't sticky every popular suggestion, we just make new thread again and again. 
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I tried it on my blaster with the flame mastery. When I want to range, I keep a little distance from the frontline, and put the bonfire under my feet. This prevents mobs from approaching me. Team members are welcome to stay cozy with me too.| how do you use bonfire effectly without getting kicked from the team? |
When appropriate, I put a bonfire close to the door to prevent mobs from entering.
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That's a great use of KB.|
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
I tried it on my blaster with the flame mastery. When I want to range, I keep a little distance from the frontline, and put the bonfire under my feet. This prevents mobs from approaching me. Team members are welcome to stay cozy with me too.
When appropriate, I put a bonfire close to the door to prevent mobs from entering. |
It's other KB powers have only a 'chance' of KB, and usually those hit when you don't want them to. My AR/Nrg blaster particularly hates it in his grenade, buckshot and slug. If I could turn the Knockback of those into Knockdown instead, his AoEing could be so much easier. The KB of grenade specifically, since it has a much longer range I tend to use it as an opening attack when I let loose all my cones and grenades, and when I think to myself "Ok, I'll hit them with my 'nade, watch them fly from the KB, and pull them around the corner to burninate them." What happens? They don't. But when I use my 'nade with the intent to close in to flamethrower them and then hit them up with my other attacks, they fly around and I don't get to flamethrower as many.
Other times, the constant KBing really messes things up. If I open up with my Flamethrower then give them a face full of frag grenade and then buckshot, I usually knock some of them away with the 'nade, meaning I hit even less with Buckshot, either being outside the cone's sides or outside the range.
Now for powers who's purpose is KB, I love. Gale is perfect on my Storm users, getting at times no less than 5 slots so I can really slot it with the KB IO set. Force Field's Force Bolt is a standard part of my attack chain on my bubble users.
I even put Chance to Knockback in some stun powers like Beanbag and Nrg Manip's Stun; simply because how the powers feel/look, knocking the enemy back as well seems to fit its powerful look.
I just wish I could tone down the knocking back of other powers. If not turning the KB down, maybe lowering the 'chance' of the KB?
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
The main problem with this concept has always been that the threshold at which knockdown turns into knockback is about 0.75, but knockback comes in several different magnitudes, making a single catch-all enhancement very hard to make.
I also suspect that certain powers are balanced around their knockback, which would reduce the scope of this.
Never surrender! Never give up!
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And we've hit our monthly quota for knockback suggestions in this forum. Please come back next month where someone else suggests how we should eliminate knockback in a superhero game.
(Which is about like playing a fantasy game and banning swords.)
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Originally Posted by Heart Attack
While I see your point that about KB being in there to mitigate a power, if I as a play find it annoying and want to "waste" several slots making it remove that annoyance from myself why shouldn't I be able to?
After all I'm not forcing you to "ruin" your play by using -KB, you pay to play and can choose to ignore them same as I can choose to use them. Yes KB has it's place and it can be used constuctively, but it can also be a nusance. Simply because you are happy with it doesn't mean everyone is and doesn't mean you are right to dismiss the idea. |
The problem with that is that then everyone who nitpicks about how 'bad' KB is will never ever even consider people with KB in the teams, even those who can play it well.
"I can't help powers doing KB!"
"Yes you can, there are IOs that do -KB! Go buy them! SuXX0r!"
And yes, that is about the level of rationality I would expect, at least on the majority of PuGs I've been on where KB has been transformed into some giant issue.
It's really not. And giving people the means will just lead to less tolerance.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm a firm believer in the proper use of knockback, but I have to admit it's not complete tripe when certain kinds of tankers complain about KB causing them problems.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
We get everything from 'Oh, they spread the spawns out', to 'Oh, I cant tank when people KB the mobs.' Both of which are tripe. If the spawn gets spread out, it's hardly hard to move forward a bit and chase down the flying mobs. And, as a tanker myself, I've never found KB to be much of a problem when tanking. The mobs are so firmly aggroed that they just run straight back to me, and into a well overdue pounding.
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Invulnerability and Willpower tankers need to be in the vicinity of mobs for their defense and regeneration. Under certain circumstances (the tank surrounded by melee mobs while also under fire from another group of ranged mobs), knocking the mobs around the tank away can result in the tank losing a substantial amount of mitigation.
And pretty much every Tanker primary has some kind of damage aura or other effect that requires the presence of mobs (Consume, Energy Absorption, Oppressive Gloom, Power Sink, Ice Patch, Chilling Embrace, etc.). An Ice tanker about to use Energy Absorption could find himself denuded of mobs by knockback, and thereby lose critically needed defense.
Of course, those mobs are not doing anything while they're knocked back, so it's not usually very dangerous when this happens -- it's just an annoyance. But for something like Ice Melee, the Ice Patch often forms a significant part of the tanker's mitigation, and knocking all the mobs off it can be bad if the mobs have ranged attacks and feel no need to rush back to you (like certain Rikti).
So, people should know better than to use area KB attacks on most tankers, and should desist when a tanker asks them to stop. And tankers should give others fair warning when KB is harming/annoying them. And if they can't work it out, then they shouldn't be teaming together.
Actually, I think the argument usually goes:
"Get rid of knockback!"
"No, I use knockback to protect myself. Don't get rid of it."
"Knockback is evil, kicks puppies, and makes me press "F" on my keyboard!"
"Deal."
"How about just IOs to reduce knockback, so those who don't want it can reduce it?"
So while the IOs make it into the argument, they usually aren't *the* argument. (Other than either comments about 'wasting' slots, or not being able to tell from one character to another how much KB they'll have.)
That said, I think the only argument against it was technical, not being sure if it was (or being told it wasn't) possible to do.
Love the idea myself. Being able to remove the effect with some effort would make powers like Handclap more attractive.
I don't like it -- knockback is a major feature of superhero comics, and I'm also concerned that this would further ghettoize knockback players: "You can't be on the team unless you've slotted the -knb IO to reduce your knockback."
However, I MIGHT get behind this idea as long as the actual property itself was officially named "Suck."
"Sure, just take your Energy Blast and add Suck to it, and we'll let you on the team!"
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I would never buy, build, or use one of these things, but since I don't give a tenth of a damn what other people do to their powers, I'm in favor of this suggestion, merely because it's the opposite of the usual crap about how KB is bad and should be nerfed across the board. It puts the onus to spend Inf and use up slots on the people who don't want their powers to work properly, where it belongs. D'accord.
As we discussed in other threads, the difference between knockdown/knockback is magnitude (easily seen by using a knockdown power on a green enemy or a knockback power on a purple). People seem quite tolerant of allowing players to slot knockback into their knockdown powers but then argue against allowing people to slot knockdown into knockback powers.
As also stated in the other thread proper use of knockback on a team is essentially using the powers as a knockdown. (i.e., hovering, using a wall, etc.). It could be argued that being able to turn knockback into a knockdown could overpower some sets. That is the reason I dont believe well ever get the enhancement.
Still, I have quite a few powers Id love to be able to slot this into so that I dont grief myself as the knockback is a hindrance to my own powers (not even talking about teams).
I could bore you all with a list, but here are a few:
Fire/elec blaster. Radial knockback thunderstrike means that I have to either wait to use this high damage power or grief my own fireball/firebreath.
Gravity anything the knockback on wormhole is ridiculous.
My dark blast, archery and sonic defenders dont take their knockback AoEs. Inconsistent knockback does not make up for risking enemies out of a debuff.
My corruptor will not be taking Explosive Blast or Nova. If I cant gurantee theyll all die, Im definitely not going to send them flying in every direction.
When is the last time you saw anyone take handclap on a SS character?
My Characters
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This pretty well describes my feelings towards "-KB IOs"...|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't like it -- knockback is a major feature of superhero comics, and I'm also concerned that this would further ghettoize knockback players: "You can't be on the team unless you've slotted the -knb IO to reduce your knockback."
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I play Storm. And I'd like to think that after 45 ridiculuously awesome and fun levels, I've got a pretty damn good handle on how to use KB to it's fullest. KB is my mitigation. I've noticed hardly anyone plays Storm, probably because of this twisted misconception about KB. No other MMO out there (to my knowledge) allows you to relocate the enemy at will. It's a tool, and it's not broken...your thinking is.
So please, please get out of the tight little box and explore the wonderous world of comabt tactics KB has to offer.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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Actually, the same argument can be used the other way round. The OP suggested -kb enhancement to suppress kb, which imply that kb "suck." Currently, there is no mechanism to suppress kb, which might suggest that kb is "great."|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I don't like it -- knockback is a major feature of superhero comics, and I'm also concerned that this would further ghettoize knockback players: "You can't be on the team unless you've slotted the -knb IO to reduce your knockback."
However, I MIGHT get behind this idea as long as the actual property itself was officially named "Suck." "Sure, just take your Energy Blast and add Suck to it, and we'll let you on the team!" |
But if you ask yourself, is kb always great? And also, is kb always suck? In my opinion, it depends on the situation. Sometimes it is the best not to kb. The problem with the OP's suggestion is that the suppression is done at the enhancement level, so the effect is permanent till the player switches build. This is not ideal as sometimes it is great and essential to kb. Although the suggestion is going to the extreme of eliminating kb, it doesn't mean that the idea of suppressing kb situationally is entirely wrong, because it is good not to kb sometimes.
I think what is missing in the kb mechanics is the ability for players to control kb and kd in real time rather than using enhancement for powers like energy blasts.
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For all my examples listed above, there is absolutely no time I'd rather have the knockback than knockdown. |
Originally Posted by Twilight_Snow
Actually, the same argument can be used the other way round. The OP suggested -kb enhancement to suppress kb, which imply that kb "suck." Currently, there is no mechanism to suppress kb, which might suggest that kb is "great."
But if you ask yourself, is kb always great? And also, is kb always suck? In my opinion, it depends on the situation. Sometimes it is the best not to kb. The problem with the OP's suggestion is that the suppression is done at the enhancement level, so the effect is permanent till the player switches build. This is not ideal as sometimes it is great and essential to kb. Although the suggestion is going to the extreme of eliminating kb, it doesn't mean that the idea of suppressing kb situationally is entirely wrong, because it is good not to kb sometimes. I think what is missing in the kb mechanics is the ability for players to control kb and kd in real time rather than using enhancement for powers like energy blasts. |
However, if this was put into place, I would use the dual build on my energy/pain corruptor. Knockdown build for teaming, knockback for solo.
My Characters
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Actually, real-time control is really fast. My first post in this thread suggested click to kd, shift-click to kb (can be bound to other keys). Kb enhancement will be used to increase the kb distance. Obviously, the suggestion needs coding, so standard code rant applies. My idea is mainly for something like energy blast which people use mainly for damage and kb is secondary effect. For powers that are used just for kb like force bolt, I would leave it as it is.
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Originally Posted by Tatmia
For all my examples listed above, there is absolutely no time I'd rather have the knockback than knockdown.
However, if this was put into place, I would use the dual build on my energy/pain corruptor. Knockdown build for teaming, knockback for solo. |
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In over two years, I remember only maybe 3 times when a team mentioned not liking KB as anything other than a passing remark... and in those situation, twice the person left/was kicked and in the other was the leader's friend and continued to complain the rest of the mission.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And yes, that is about the level of rationality I would expect, at least on the majority of PuGs I've been on where KB has been transformed into some giant issue.
It's really not. And giving people the means will just lead to less tolerance. |
It is that last part of the quote that gets me confused... I just simply have not seen much hate for ANY particular aspect of the game turn up in real gameplay. Whether that be KB, rocking auras, etc. And I PUG almost exclusively.
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Same here. |
Originally Posted by Thirty_Seven
In over two years, I remember only maybe 3 times when a team mentioned not liking KB as anything other than a passing remark... and in those situation, twice the person left/was kicked and in the other was the leader's friend and continued to complain the rest of the mission.
It is that last part of the quote that gets me confused... I just simply have not seen much hate for ANY particular aspect of the game turn up in real gameplay. Whether that be KB, rocking auras, etc. And I PUG almost exclusively. |
But on this board, it gets brought up a ton, often hiding whine threads as 'suggestions'. I play not only almost exclusively PUGs, but usually the toons often cited as knockback aggressors. It doesn't come up in gameplay as long as the team even mildly works together on the issue.
These kinds of stealth whine threads are just comical at this point.
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They do not fly in every direction, they fly in exactly one direction.........away from the caster. |
Originally Posted by Tatmia
My corruptor will not be taking Explosive Blast or Nova. If I cant gurantee theyll all die, Im definitely not going to send them flying in every direction. |
Nova flies them in every direction, if you are in the center of them...........which you don't necessarily need them to be. Then again, that power is designed to be a killing blow, and you simply need to learn to time that right.
Statements like these are why KB is hated...........you don't understand it. Most persecution works that way.
Comical thread is comical.
It would be nice with some powers to be able to reduce the effect of knockback.
I'm thinking of those times when you are playing a blaster and have an AOE ready to go (built up with buildup, aim etc), you have a huge group of mobs just waiting to be wiped and the scrapper, tank etc in the middle hits them with their AOE and blam they are all over the room.
Or when you are a melee alt and suddenly all the targets are flying away as a blaster hits them with an AOE with a knockback component.
I'm assuming this would work as a negative modifier like +Knockback works as a positive modifier. Though I think the numbers would need to be maybe -20-25% for a +3 SO with an effective cap of 80-90%. Thus a mag 1.1 Knockback could be turned into knockup, but a mag 10 would still be a knockback though a much smaller one.
The downside is slotting these stops you being able to get someone off you for a while.
I'm not sure I see an issue with slotting both +knockback and -knockback other than it seems a little pointless.