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BRILLIANT! |
Originally Posted by Smurphy
You want stuff.
You play the game and get random stuff. You take your random stuff to the market and turn it into cool, sweet, hard cash. You buy the stuff you want. |
Said it before, I'll say it again.
IOs are a LUXURY.
Sets are an even BIGGER luxury.
*Paraphrase* "Have a vendor who sells all recipies at a fixed price."
There IS a vendor that sells most (not all) IOs at a fixed price.
The Merit Vendor.
You can get almost any IO in the game (save Purples and a couple event-specific sets) from them. And more, you can get them at any level you want (and are eligible for).
And, as I have ALSO noted before, the seller isn't the one who determines the sale price of an item. The buyer is.
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I don't think I was trying to get everyone to agree with me. This convo has gone Democrats versus Republicans. I don't get into politics, so you all enjoy. I am going to go see if there are any Gaussians available.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
An impressive defense of your theory, I'm sure everyone will agree with you now!
*thumbsup* |
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Uh... no. |
Originally Posted by Heraclea
They are out of reach for players who play as intended.
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A market was added to this game. I believe it was intended for people to use it. I use it. By using the market, I am playing the game as intended.
I am really getting sick and bloody tired of the insinuations that playing the market is somehow aberrant or exploitive (in the game sense) behavior. I'm sorry, but it's a valid part of the game.
If you want to play the game the "legacy" way, then expect to use the "legacy" system of rewards. As it happens, it's much, much easier for us to do that now than it was before the market was introduced.
But, if you want to use the optional goodies, you have to, in some fashion, incorporate the optional systems into your game play. I really don't see how this is unreasonable, and I've yet to come across someone who could explain how it is.
Instead, it's all about wanting to eat the cake and have it too and/or "my play style is more legitimate than yours".
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And, as I have ALSO noted before, the seller isn't the one who determines the sale price of an item. The buyer is.
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Actually, you are dead wrong. You have to tell the market what price you want to sell your gear for. Thus, the seller determines the price.
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Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
My opinion is perceived as poorly thought by those who disagree. Which seems somewhat childish.
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I gave you a shot at defending a position and your reply was far from the sort of high minded maturity you require of others.
Your ideas aren't getting savaged because we're childish, they're getting savaged because they're weak and don't deserve to survive.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Fulmens has a bunch of Luck Charms for sale at 2 billion each- so that's "the price"?|
Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
Actually, you are dead wrong. You have to tell the market what price you want to sell your gear for. Thus, the seller determines the price.
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If you thought about this stuff for 10 seconds before you posted it you could deprive us all of a lot of laughter at your expense.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Conversely, he gave you an opportunity to support your position which you, as usual, did not.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I gave you a shot at defending a position and your reply was far from the sort of high minded maturity you require of others.
Your ideas aren't getting savaged because we're childish, they're getting savaged because they're weak and don't deserve to survive. |
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I've explored the 'time is the only real currency' concept several times since the advent of the market.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
Conversely, he gave you an opportunity to support your position which you, as usual, did not.
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I support positions on a sliding scale- stuff I've already worked out to my own satisfaction gets a gloss.
I don't have your patience for explaining the same thing 50 times to each new generation of poster.
But please list your objections to the argument and I will be happy to address them.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Yes, that'd be childish, if that were the situation. But it's not the situation. You have it backwards.|
Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
My opinion is perceived as poorly thought by those who disagree. Which seems somewhat childish.
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I don't find your opinion ill-thought because I disagree with it.
I disagree with your opinion because I find it to be ill-thought.
There's nothing childish about the latter.
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| You ignored one part of my statement |
Your suggestion is simply another alternative mechanic to the market.
I don't think the market needs any more alternatives. It is an optional system and there are alternatives in place already.
Your problem can be addressed much more directly by simply adjusting drop rates.
If drop rates are not adjusted, it's reasonable to assume that the rarity of the items in question is where the developers want it to be.
I would agree that you've a legitimate issue. I would agree that drop rates on certain items could probably use some tweaking. And certainly the current bug isn't helping. That needs to be identified and fixed.
I do not agree to the proposal of yet another alternative to the market. It's been diluted enough. Especially for a system that's entirely optional. And I'm getting a little weary of my own game experience being diminished due to the overkill employed in addressing someone else's problem.
See: recent MA nerfs.
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Right. Which explains why when I put up a particular IO for 1,555,555 it consistently sells for anywhere from 3-6 million. |
Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
Actually, you are dead wrong. You have to tell the market what price you want to sell your gear for. Thus, the seller determines the price.
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I think that the devs intend for that to be the case, but it's trivially easy to find folks on this forum that make staggering amounts of inf by logging in for less than a half hour a day with their marketing characters.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've explored the 'time is the only real currency' concept several times since the advent of the market.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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The seller only determines a minimum transaction price; he can't force the sale. Try listing common recipe for a billion or two; naturally it'll never sell. There has to be a willing buyer and seller.
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Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
Actually, you are dead wrong. You have to tell the market what price you want to sell your gear for. Thus, the seller determines the price.
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Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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Which I think is one reason they've been adding alternatives that tie rewards more concretely to 'time played'. Merits were a nerf in buff's clothing.|
Originally Posted by Sardan
I think that the devs intend for that to be the case, but it's trivially easy to find folks on this forum that make staggering amounts of inf by logging in for less than a half hour a day with their marketing characters.
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But even marketeering involves a time component, albeit offline.
To generalize about flipping, the more profit you stand to make from a deal the longer you need to be willing to wait.
You can democratize this by spreading your bids out across a range of levels as I did recently with the lower level Aegis psi/mez's. Individual stacks didn't hit very often, but at the end of a week I had a tidy pile of recipes to flip.
But if you want big margins on flipping, patience is a virtue.
I seem to make about the same amount of inf over time on characters who take a long-range, big markup strategy as I do on characters that spend more playtime in active marketeering with lower markups but more turnover. But that is totally unscientific and may not be true for anyone else.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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No. Actually I'm right. The buyer has to be willing to PAY the amount asked for. If not, there's no sale, and the seller has one of his market slots taken up.
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Originally Posted by Nemesis_Prime
Actually, you are dead wrong. You have to tell the market what price you want to sell your gear for. Thus, the seller determines the price.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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The seller sets the minimum bid he will accept. That's not the sale price (though the two can be identical at times).|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
Both wrong. Both right.
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The buyer is the one with all the control over how much they actually pay for the item.
If the prospective buyer will not at least meet the minimum bid, there is no sale.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
ok ok, so someone tell me what to do with the market thing then??
I'm very impatient and I always end up paying high prices for things I want "NAO!" and selling cheap to get the sale "NAO!"
How can I work the market better...
Please note that my impatience is a very difficult variable to change.
:P
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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This can NEVER happen. "Everyone" can NEVER enjoy a thing... [You could make everything cost 1 Inf, and there would be people who would not enjoy it. You could make everything cost 2 Billion Inf, and there would be people who would not enjoy it. You can never please all of the people all of the time.]|
Originally Posted by Donna_
Pls Pls do something so that everyone can enjoy the invention system.
Thoughts please? ............. |
[And the fact that there are television executives that believe that there is entertainment that can make "everyone" happy is why we have terrible television in the US. But I digress...]
I believe Many People enjoy the Invention system as it is currently. I do. [And by the way, your having 3 purpled out toons is a sign that the invention/market system is tuned EXACTLY right.. it sounds like you had to put forth some SERIOUS effort in doing that. THAT is the INTENT.]
Certainly there are improvements that can be made... But I believe "many people" enjoying it is all we can ever hope for.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
very simple... place what you feel is a fair bid and wait. research what you want and make sure to pay attention to the last 5 often. watch for a number that is lower then the last couple highest and bid just over that. within a week you should have what you want. the market really isn't for those that have absolutely no patience, it is for those that can take the pains of waiting a few hrs or days to get what they want.
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Originally Posted by galadiman
This can NEVER happen. "Everyone" can NEVER enjoy a thing... [You could make everything cost 1 Inf, and there would be people who would not enjoy it. You could make everything cost 2 Billion Inf, and there would be people who would not enjoy it. You can never please all of the people all of the time.]
[And the fact that there are television executives that believe that there is entertainment that can make "everyone" happy is why we have terrible television in the US. But I digress...] I believe Many People enjoy the Invention system as it is currently. I do. [And by the way, your having 3 purpled out toons is a sign that the invention/market system is tuned EXACTLY right.. it sounds like you had to put forth some SERIOUS effort in doing that. THAT is the INTENT.] Certainly there are improvements that can be made... But I believe "many people" enjoying it is all we can ever hope for. |
Stupid reply, I meant everyone can enjoy it by being able to afford the IO's that they want.
I wasn't saying the IO sytem was flawed! I think the IO system is amazing. Read closer before you reply pls.
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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Do you not see the correlation between your willingness to pay over the odds to get something immediately and the fact that the prices seem overinflated to you?|
Originally Posted by Donna_
ok ok, so someone tell me what to do with the market thing then??
I'm very impatient and I always end up paying high prices for things I want "NAO!" and selling cheap to get the sale "NAO!" How can I work the market better... Please note that my impatience is a very difficult variable to change. :P |
In other words : "They saw you coming mate!"
Place realisic bids and wait it out. In the meantime farm Merits / Tickets (merits if you want something specific and don't want to play with the RNG, tickets otherwise) to generate reward rolls (I tend to go for level 35-39 rolls either way). At the mo I'm just doing arcs, earning 20 merits and then random rolling. I tend to just play the game and hope lady luck smiles on me (or at least doesn't poo Snipe Sets down upon me) rather than actually farming or anything. Mostly because of my chronic altisis.
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Please define "play as intended" and justify your authority to make that definition.|
Originally Posted by Heraclea
Those who subscribe to the reigning ideology of this forum will not acknowledge that there's even a problem. There is a problem, though. Those who defend the prices that come about on the markets ignore the fact that those prices are indeed out of reach if all the inf you get in ordinary game play - i.e. running missions and defeating mobs. They may not be out of reach to people who farm for purple drops, random rolls to sell, or the meta-game of manipulating the market. They are out of reach for players who play as intended.
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I run missions and defeat mobs and it takes a while but I buy what I want if I want for what I want to pay or I wait for it to drop.
In other words you are in no position to make your statement and you are wrong.
So I am going to go buy another IO for more than 100 million because I can and because you are wrong.
Did I mention you are wrong?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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The market does not exist to fix our personal failings.|
Originally Posted by Donna_
ok ok, so someone tell me what to do with the market thing then??
I'm very impatient and I always end up paying high prices for things I want "NAO!" and selling cheap to get the sale "NAO!" How can I work the market better... Please note that my impatience is a very difficult variable to change. :P |
[edited to add] I am impatient also.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Donna: Three possibilities.
1) Lie to yourself. Pretend that you're buying a handgun in the Texas. You CAN get anything you want, but you have to wait 3 days. ("But I'm mad NOW!" -H. Simpson)
2) Figure out what you're going to want in advance- "By this weekend i'll be level 42, I will need the following things" and then put your bids up early. I know you have limited market slots. You can BUY IT NAO for the salvage, that won't hurt you too badly...
3) Make it a race between your ability to get the inf for BUY IT NAO and the market's ability to fill your reasonable order.
Nemesis Prime: Similar advice. I have started "I want to BUY IT NAO" threads on the market, for things that just weren't available, offering princely sums. I figured the price in merits, at something like 400,000 inf/merit, and offered that and someone I'd never seen before helped me out. Twice, actually.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Sell to whom? If everyone's buying merits with inf and then buying what they want with merits, who, exactly, will be going to the market for anything?
If there's a store--and that's effectively what you're proposing--there's little to no use for a market.
No, they are not.
Please keep in mind that, when posting on the market forum, you are likely addressing people who use the market, use it extensively, and use it successfully. I have multiple characters at or near the inf cap, and I don't farm. I am very well versed in the market, believe me. I wouldn't be able to make the sort of profit I make by misreading the market as grossly as you'd like to suggest I have.
I can list numerous examples of recipes that became "vendor trash" when tickets hit the scene, on both sides of the fence. Many of them are still dramatically reduced in price. Right now, I could vendor recipes at a profit that couldn't be touched for under 3-5 million pre-AE.
Merits and tickets have both had dramatic effects on the market and how extensively it's used. This should not be a surprise, as when you add alternatives to the market, people will use them as alternatives to the market.
What you suggest is yet another market alternative. I think there are enough market alternatives. And yes, it stands to reason that, if you add enough alternatives, eventually you reach a point where no one uses the market anymore. Because there's no need to do so.
Again, if something is deemed too rare, the way to address that is by changing its drop rate. The system is optional. There are multiple existing alternatives to the system. The system doesn't need to be altered any further to accommodate proclivities that are in direct opposition to the fundamental dynamic of the system. If you do not have to be informed and patient to get what you want from a market, then it's no longer a market.
It's a store.
You ignored one part of my statement and focused on another in terms of selling and buying merits. If it is really expensive to swap in your cash for merits, then how many folks do you think will be doing it? Most of the people I play with have less than 10mil on almost any character. That isn't going to buy you very many merits. Considering the "good" stuff costs 200+ merits, I don't see a radical shift in market usage on the horizon if this ever went live.