In before deletion!
[QUOTE=Bud;2324203] there are some things you just cant do with out IO's...Fact.../QUOTE]
I agree with you there. Without IOs, I don't have much fun with:
*Any Melee without KB protection.
*Any squishy without Stealth in Grandvillie.
*Any Melee without a level 20 Miracle unique prior to SOs (WP and Regen are exempted).
For gaining IOs, these are a few of my favorite things.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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Your reference would be newb, Kat, which is what most of my examples are. The 33 Ice/Ice was the noob. |
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
While I don't think its overly cool to just publicly berate people for being noobs and having screwed up builds, saying builds do not make the player to atleast some extent is ********. There is a reason why so many people choose very similar optimal builds. Because its been tried and tested and proven that certain powers are needed to make a build the best it can be. You can argue all day long that a tank not having its defense/resistance toggles doesn't make them suck as a player all you want, but a dead tank doesn't hold aggro which is their primary responsibility. A blaster with no stamina that never has any end isn't killing a damn thing half the time. An empathy without clear mind isn't fulfilling their purpose to the team either.
Now if a toon has the primary powers needed to do their job and then wants to get flurry and whirlwind and any other power that is deemed useless by most, more power to them. Personally I am one who has gotten extremely tired of messed up builds on teams I form. I literally have to look at every build as I am making a team anymore because there is a good chance the people joining cannot fulfill their duties their build is typically expected to fulfill. There has always been issues with a newer player or an RP'r with a concept toon with less than optimal builds, but lately its been 10 times as bad. While people should have the right to build their toons the way they want, in my personal experience the majority with the messed up builds also play those toons messed up and seldom contribute much to the team. The cases of them being good players are far and in between. I mean I have seen a concept build of a scrapper with no travel power. Who cares, that doesn't prohit them from surviving and putting out DPS. In fact I seen a concept build of a blaster who didn't take any of the buildups, aims, etc. They were an RP'r. Ok so they put out less DPS, it was ok, they still faught their little heart out and contributed to the team and wasn't a burden. However those type of gimped builds with decent players behind them is not the norm. Usually its someone who doesn't do their fair share, is aggo'n half the map all the time, wandering off in to mobs themself when they can't hold their own. Or spending the entire mish begging people for inspirations because they are missing everything, have no endurance or can't survive because they don't have their defenses. Or yelling at the emp because they didn't get healed quick enough. etc etc. There is a huge difference between an "intentional" concept build, and a noob who just doesn't know any better. I love noobs, if they are open to learning, which also doesn't seem to be the case lately either. |
Honestly, I don't go too far out of my way to even discuss build advaice with teammates, unles they are doing a stellar job at being the posterboy/girl for How Not to Tank 101. You discuss builds with someone casually and the next thing you know, you're the Anti-Christ, so its best to just not team with anyone that bothers you.
Look on the bright side, at least the newbs that play bump the spawn count so that we don't have to.
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
the point being, which i felt was missed by Catty, is that the build doesnt make the hero, the player does. eh, did i just repeat myself? As Myrmie observed, there were players not using their builds/powers right. Just because you have a carbon copy build doesnt neccessitate you to be a good player..... the build doesnt magically click/apply the powers at the right times.... nor does the build allocate intelligent tactics to the user either......
i personally advocate peeps to fully explore their AT powersets and use trial and error in figuring out what works best for the player. Not only will this be the greatest source of satisfaction and sense of true personalization, it will give the player plenty of experience and know-how of their powers, what they can do and what they cannot do. I'd rather have that in a person than someone reliant on someone else's paper dolly, never to explore out of the box they stuck themselves into. Honestly, that doesnt sound fun or personal....
Ibtl +1
Member - Pingus, & Legendaries
Angry Sysop 50 BRUTE - Angry Woodsman 50 TANK - Angry Florist 21 CONTROLLER
"Did your Phantom Army just take the Elevator? Imaginary People riding Elevators? *facepalm*
I'm sure that if people looked at some of my builds as I gather stuff at WW, etc. they might cross their eyes trying to figure out why I don't have certain powers on certain AT/power-sets. However, if they teamed with that toon later they might be surprised to find that I have those powers after all.
Being primarily a solo-player, I love having the option for two builds and I've been designing my toons around that feature. I like to have a solo build designed specifically for my toon's survival. I don't need to take buffs or shields which don't affect my troller and defs, and can take more attacks and self-interested powers. But I also have team builds that are specifically designed to add the most benefit to any teams they are on so I can buff, shield, heal, debuff, and/or get any extras like recall friend. As they gain levels the team build becomes more balanced but the primary focus is on the team for the development of the entire build.
I wish some of the people who have "concept" builds might consider doing something similar. Adapting to fit into different circumstances in the game isn't such a bad thing when it makes things smoother for the people you are relying on for teams, and to help in achieving a goal.
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but.... that'd be WAY too smart, Talon!|
Originally Posted by Talon_Arsenal
I'm sure that if people looked at some of my builds as I gather stuff at WW, etc. they might cross their eyes trying to figure out why I don't have certain powers on certain AT/power-sets. However, if they teamed with that toon later they might be surprised to find that I have those powers after all.
Being primarily a solo-player, I love having the option for two builds and I've been designing my toons around that feature. I like to have a solo build designed specifically for my toon's survival. I don't need to take buffs or shields which don't affect my troller and defs, and can take more attacks and self-interested powers. But I also have team builds that are specifically designed to add the most benefit to any teams they are on so I can buff, shield, heal, debuff, and/or get any extras like recall friend. As they gain levels the team build becomes more balanced but the primary focus is on the team for the development of the entire build. I wish some of the people who have "concept" builds might consider doing something similar. Adapting to fit into different circumstances in the game isn't such a bad thing when it makes things smoother for the people you are relying on for teams, and to help in achieving a goal. |
:P
Great advice
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I agree, and got your point. My point was that screwed up builds typically seem to have screwed up players behind them. No that is not the case 100%. Just like good builds do not always equal good players. However if I had to put a number on it off the top of my head from gaming experiences I would say 75% of the people in game I have seen that have seemingly screwed up builds, don't know how to play them either. Out of that 75% I would say over half of them are not open to taking any advice and any attempt to give any results in awkward moments.|
Originally Posted by PHlRE
the point being, which i felt was missed by Catty, is that the build doesnt make the hero, the player does. eh, did i just repeat myself? As Myrmie observed, there were players not using their builds/powers right. Just because you have a carbon copy build doesnt neccessitate you to be a good player..... the build doesnt magically click/apply the powers at the right times.... nor does the build allocate intelligent tactics to the user either......
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| I wish some of the people who have "concept" builds might consider doing something similar. Adapting to fit into different circumstances in the game isn't such a bad thing when it makes things smoother for the people you are relying on for teams, and to help in achieving a goal. |
Seriously. This.
I can't tell you how many times since they allowed the dual builds that I have wondered why more people do not use the option. I personally don't have any myself, but I also refuse to play my gimped toons on teams. For example my emp has a duo pvp build. I don't play her for pve teams. I will jump on my therm instead. If I didn't have a therm then I would give my emp a second build for teaming. Why kins with no SB and emps with no CM because they solo or farm a lot don't do the same thing I don't know. I am sure the inconvenience to them isn't nearly as big as the inconvenience to the teams they keep wanting to run tf's with.
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lol|
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
I agree, and got your point. My point was that screwed up builds typically seem to have screwed up players behind them. No that is not the case 100%. Just like good builds do not always equal good players. However if I had to put a number on it off the top of my head from gaming experiences I would say 75% of the people in game I have seen that have seemingly screwed up builds, don't know how to play them either. Out of that 75% I would say over half of them are not open to taking any advice and any attempt to give any results in awkward moments.
This. Seriously. This. I can't tell you how many times since they allowed the dual builds that I have wondered why more people do not use the option. I personally don't have any myself, but I also refuse to play my gimped toons on teams. For example my emp has a duo pvp build. I don't play her for pve teams. I will jump on my therm instead. If I didn't have a therm then I would give my emp a second build for teaming. Why kins with no SB and emps with no CM because they solo or farm a lot don't do the same thing I don't know. I am sure the inconvenience to them isn't nearly as big as the inconvenience to the teams they keep wanting to run tf's with. |
/agreed
i think the "dual build" option kind of been forgotten about lol. Actually used that option to avoid a Respec in the mid20's hahahah. Either cuz it costs twice as much, supporting 2 builds.... and peeps still not used to having a "secondary build" available to them. As Talon said, its a great spot for an "RP" or "Concept" build to be stuck to. Knowing this, maybe next time when critiquing someone, to offer the idea of using the secondary build for their "unique" toon. They may have not thought to do that themselves and would be happy to, after being harped on by so many already :P
going w/ Force, i dont give out full builds to players for the same reason.... i'll give power selection/usage suggestions, but beyond that... i KNOW they aint gonna play the same way i play. Which is plenty fine - theres many ways to play w/ the same end result. And there's many more ways to Fluff it up, as Catty points out, lol.
Ya know.... a n00b annoys me as much as any other veteran. But put it into perspective. We were all n00bs once. I was a pretty ambitious n00b that ran a Fire/Fire blaster named Demoness Phire, back in the day. The Combo of Aim + BU + Fireball + Fire Sword Circle was just MAGIC for me! I could run into a group up to +2's and just knock them all down with that! Then i got into the 30's..... All of a sudden they werent going down and i was going down fast! After slowing down in the mid30's and pulling WAY TOO MUCH AGGRO during team mishes w/ my playing style, i resigned the blaster lol. I moved to a Fire/Ice tank, when they were just on the brink of the big "Break-out" of the Fire/Ice tanks. That was my first 50 lol. I think Myr might remember that char, the one used to join BOSS. Eventually, moved onto a Defender after getting a Fire/Rad con and a great Claws/Regen scrap to 50. Found out that being a Defender was my cup of tea!
This was years of feeling out and experiencing much of what the game offered. I was a pretty good player but not very technically sound in efficient slotting. Im going to have to say if i didnt give myself opportunities to explore, feeling out various ATs and builds (i respec'd respec'd respec'd def builds over and over!) i wouldnt have become as powerful player as i am now. This didnt come from throwing myself in someone's build.... it took YEARS of developing as a player, through F'ing up my builds many times to find their weakness & also their strengths. I feel that the veterans expect others to be just about up to speed to them, but the n00bs need to be given the chance to be n00bs, just like how were were given.
Its true that its good to learn thru 2nd hand experience, but thru 1st hand knowledge, those experiences become tangible, solid, and a permanent part of the player. Its good to have a balance of both....
The problem with you "build police", is that there are too many varying opinions on exactly what is needed to make the build "correct". The way to "correctly" build a toon is much too subjective.
For example, Me & Myr disagree alot in regards to Inv. Passives. I feel they are unnecessary, and Myr reminds me all the time I should pick it up.
Literally, it comes down to personal playstyle. Where you may be critical to player with a "broken" build, I can show you 10 times the amount of players who have "correctly built" toons but CONSTANTLY put their team in jeopardy.
do you pimp out your toons because you think they make you a better player
This is a general question not geard towards any 1 person (ok, maybe a few of you)
What I have found is that really good players dont feel the need to sit around and brag about their builds.
Ive been fortunate and have met and played with a lot of really really good players, and not a single 1 of them sit around and brag.. oh i got this and that slotted oo and i just paid bla bla for this.. There are a lot of things that make a person a good player, and its not just the color of the **** in their builds or how uber /correct they think their builds are.
to quote Dinah " I can show you 10 times the amount of players who have "correctly built" toons but CONSTANTLY put their team in jeopardy."
+
(but dont take the blame for it and instead blame it on everyone else's builds or play styles)
and from Phire "is that the build doesnt make the hero, the player does. eh, did i just repeat myself? As Myrmie observed, there were players not using their builds/powers right. Just because you have a carbon copy build doesnt neccessitate you to be a good player..... the build doesnt magically click/apply the powers at the right times.... nor does the build allocate intelligent tactics to the user either"
/e stepsoffsoapbox
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Why kins with no SB and emps with no CM because they solo or farm a lot don't do the same thing I don't know.
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You have an emp build that can farm? I seriously need to see that because I can barely solo with mine.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
It seems like there are a lot of ways to play out there; and as long as what you are doing works for what goals you have everything is good to go.
Personally, I have too many alts to be thinking about purple io sets and though I like planning my builds to suit my play-style, I don't run around giving specifics. Even above I only said that I use both builds and each has a focus that works for me (and hopefully the teams they are invited to play with.) I am completely clueless about a lot of things in this game, sometimes deliberately so, but if it makes someone else happy to discuss how powerful they are and what numbers, etc. they get in benefits from enh I'll be happy for them, nod and smile and have no clue what they are talking about.
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^ thats me.
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Originally Posted by Talon_Arsenal
I am completely clueless about a lot of things in this game, sometimes deliberately so, but if it makes someone else happy to discuss how powerful they are and what numbers, etc. they get in benefits from enh I'll be happy for them, nod and smile and have no clue what they are talking about.
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Lol, I wish. I think on the farming I was speaking more in regards to the kins with no SB. I understand why builds like that are done. |
Originally Posted by Peterbilt
You have an emp build that can farm? I seriously need to see that because I can barely solo with mine.
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In response to some of the other posts.... I don't think its fair to judge peoples builds because of things like what attacks they choose. Hey if you like lolfirebreath or loljumpkick then go for it. My namesake has loljumpkick on her as a kicking concept MA build.
I think my personal pet peeves are sort of more along these lines.
Me in Bmt -- ItF forming, need a emp and a kin
Someone else -- I have a kin Kat, switching.
Me on vent a few mins later -- **** they don't have speedboost. Sigh
I think its not so much about specific powers someone chooses, but are the powers they are choosing fulfilling the expectations of their AT to the team. Sorry if I invite an emp to the team I do not think its fair that I should have to invite another emp to the team too because the first emp has all attacks and no buffs. Or if I invite a tank to the team with no toggles and they can't stand up to an av for 2 seconds without faceplanting. What attacks they take are irrelevant, but it would be just dandy if they are a debuffer, they have debuffs, if they are a buffer they have the buffs, if they are supposed to hold aggro they can do so without faceplanting every single mob.
As an example. Couple months ago we were putting together an STF. Ended out with one debuffer on the team, a rad. I don't remember if it was a fender or troller. Our team build was already a little light on damage so we were depending on those debuffs. Throughout the entire TF we were on vent commenting on how freaking long it was taking to take down all the AV's. Finally we get to GW and we pounded on that heifer forever and she just wouldn't die. At this point though we were about 1.5 hours in on the STF which is already more than it usually takes to complete the entire thing. We keep pounding and pounding. All of a sudden its mentioned on vent that our rad doesnt have their -regen debuff. I politely asked them why and they said they never noticed it being of much use so they respected it out. We are talking a 36 month vet here. Were the other 7 members wrong to be upset it took 3+ hours to finally complete this tf?
While I might laugh my *** off at a tank with no KB protection getting flopped around like a fish, if they are doing their job of holding aggro I am not going to feel like the team is carrying dead wait. If the rad defender wants to have every pool power in the book, who cares, as long as they have and use those 3 debuff powers its all good. Etc etc.
But actually I wouldnt even care about any of that if people were just polite enough to mention their weird builds when asking for a spot on your team. 99% of the time I would still love to have them, but atleast I then have the opportunity to compensate for what they are lacking within the rest of the open team spots.
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
While I might laugh my *** off at a tank with no KB protection getting flopped around like a fish, if they are doing their job of holding aggro I am not going to feel like the team is carrying dead wait.
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Thanks for clearing up the confusion about the AV killing emp build.
The above reminds me of one of the few Emo Phillips jokes that I like.
Emo tells he's in a bar when this huge guy comes up and say, "I'm going to wipe the floor with your face."
Emo: That's fine but you won't be able to get into the corners very well.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
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Firebreath rules!|
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
lolfirebreath
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
I think my personal pet peeves are sort of more along these lines. Me in Bmt -- ItF forming, need a emp and a kin Someone else -- I have a kin Kat, switching. Me on vent a few mins later -- **** they don't have speedboost. Sigh |
I have 2 builds on my kin...1 with SB and 1 without. I've done Master runs on the one w/o and not once have I been told "Boy, we sure could be doing a lot better if you were using the build with SB!"
*Shrugs*
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I agree 100% that SB would help anyone and any team. Thats pretty obvious. |
Originally Posted by _Force_
It's not about what you want to do and don't want to do, it's about looking at the powers available to you, speedboost for instance and saying "wow that would really help the team if they all had it!" And then getting it and using it as intended. And in this case there isn't a time on any team where having SB hindered anyone.
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What I dont always agree with is players thinking they're entitled to certain buffs because their own build is lacking in certain areas.
If you're a build that has no mez protection, you dont run into a mob, die, then ***** about not having CM.
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Kat, I'm really happy for you, I'm gonna let you finish but Fire Breath hits harder than Fireball, has a great cone when slotted and is easily one of the best cones OF ALL TIME
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
lolfirebreath
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Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
In regards to dropping MOBS....
Aim + BU + Firebreath + Fireball = win
EOM
ah, I gotcha
Just a thought here...nothing more. Using a fire blaster as an example....
Wouldnt a fire blaster w/o a power like fire breath be doing its team an injustice just like say a kin w/o SB? He could be doing more dmg with it, no? I personally think every "team" concept fire blaster should have fire breath, yet I see LOTs of them without it.
Why don't they catch the same **** kins w/o SB or emps w/o CM do?
If you ask me, its simple. Because both of those powers DIRECTLY help other team members toons. Its an entitlement issue. If you have a kin on the team, people believe they're entitled to SB and ID. If they have an emp on the team, they're entitled to CM and Fort. If those powers are missing, you're no longer a "team" player and there's cause to look down on the player or build.
Same goes for taunt on a tank. I think I could skip taunt on my Ice/SS tank. But if I were to respec out of it, there would be some idiot say "Oh God, a tank without taunt" and probably want to boot me from the team.
In the end, the player makes the toon. Its as simple as that.
And since the SB issue has been beat to death on these boards, I'll just say this as a final note regarding my observations while in game and just reading the boards.
I really get the feeling that a lot of people (including long time vets) would rather take a n00b kin willing to keep the team SBed at all times over a really good kin that doesnt have SB. And that to me is pretty sad.
"Hey, you wanna join this tf!"
"Sure, why not"
"You got SB?"
"..."
Not really sure if it's fair to judge a player based on powers he does or doesnt have that help you!
You either know the player is good and his toon will help the team, or you're looking for specific powers in certain builds.
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You should immediately delete that Tank..... And give me the name |
Originally Posted by War_Admiral
Same goes for taunt on a tank. I think I could skip taunt on my Ice/SS tank. But if I were to respec out of it, there would be some idiot say "Oh God, a tank without taunt" and probably want to boot me from the team.
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Eh, I personally don't like Fire Breath, but I do have it on my Fire/Sonic Corr for the extra AoE damage. To make good use of it you really need to be standing pretty far back because the arc on the cone isn't that wide. |
Originally Posted by Silas
Kat, I'm really happy for you, I'm gonna let you finish but Fire Breath hits harder than Fireball, has a great cone when slotted and is easily one of the best cones OF ALL TIME
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Though, I may be a bit biased, I don't really like any Cones really with the exception of Trow Spines.
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Originally Posted by War_Admiral
You either know the player is good and his toon will help the team, or you're looking for specific powers in certain builds.
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I know people will build their toons the way they want to and they should be able to. That doesn't mean I won't expect them to have certain powers .I expect an Emp to have Fort, Kin SB, Tank Taunt....well not really, probably only for an MSTF.
A Kin without SB is probably the most common one. A lot of people with farming builds don't take it, though personally I wouldn't build a Fire/Kin farmer much different than a teaming build.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight