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I'd have to say I think they could drop the recharge on it from 300s (5minutes) to 240, or even 180 without much issue.|
Originally Posted by Arondell
Reducing the recharge on Liquify without a corresponding reduction in the effectiveness doesn't seem likely to me. It really is something of an enemy nullifying power. Being able to pull it out even a majority of the time probably would be too much of a good thing.
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The defense and Tohit debuffs are comparable to those in Radiation Infection (which is effectively permanent, baring end loss or mez) and the flop effect (assuming it functions like Ice Patch or EQ(my sonic/ defender is only level 26)) doesn't justify a 10:1 recharge ratio. (KD patches are generally 3:1)
I can appreciate that combining the two sets of effects (plus adding a couple others) mean the recharge has to be longer for it's greater versatility/usefullness... but over three times longer? Seriously?
240recharge would be a baseline uptime ratio of 8:1
180recharge would be a baseline uptime ratio of 6:1
As for Sonic Siphon...
This needs to be made an actual siphon.
When used it should buff the Defender's personal resistance. This may neccesitate an increase to it's recharge to prevent horrible amounts of stacking, but I don't think that would be too much of an issue since the debuff already lasts nearly 2x as long as the recharge and doesn't self stack anyhow. The resist buff might have to be unenhanceable, as I don't know if they can let you slot resist enhancements without screwing up the debuff.
Sonic Siphon
Target -30%resist 30sec
Self +15%resist 15sec
Recharge 30sec
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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The reason is that for 30 seconds liquify, for most practical purposes, gives a team better defense then Force Field while making anything in the game easy pickings. I'm thinking specifically of those pesky Paragon Protectors that manage to get Moment of Glory activated in this case.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I can appreciate that combining the two sets of effects (plus adding a couple others) mean the recharge has to be longer for it's greater versatility/usefullness... but over three times longer? Seriously?
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People seem to get into this mode of thought that powers exist in a vacuum. Radiation infection is one of the backbone powers of the set it is in. Liquify is a very very nice "extra" that for thirty seconds boosts Sonic Resonances defense/offense capabilities significantly above the norm. No its not "as good as" Fulcrum Shift. Then again what is?
I don't think you'll see many Traps fenders once 16 goes live. I play on liberty with my heroes and at any given time I search for people to do a TF defender population is usually half that of any other AT if not 1/3.
Of that count most are RADS, EMPS, DARKS, KINS. I have however ran with several different Trick Arrow fenders!! Sadly I think on a defender people still have this way of looking down on Trick Arrow defenders. Given that anytime I invite one I get the "Look I don't have heals, is that ok??" Retort.
I think the general mind set is that people want their defenders to be certain sets and that causes many people to shy away.
I know a guy who swares to never play another Tank simply because people expect him to have certain powers and play a certain way when he gets on a team. I have seen people kick defenders from their teams who were not a healing set.
So I wonder if that doesn't effect the #s of those other secondaries and why you see more trollers with them.
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I expect there will be an initial surge of people trying it out but I tend to agree that few people will bother getting them to 50. It doesn't really offer anything that isn't more conveniently available in another set. Add in the fact that it's Tier 8 and 9 powers are almost useless on a team and you end up with a lot of abandoned defenders.|
Originally Posted by Sagamemnon
I don't think you'll see many Traps fenders once 16 goes live. I play on liberty with my heroes and at any given time I search for people to do a TF defender population is usually half that of any other AT if not 1/3.
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Originally Posted by Sagamemnon
Of that count most are RADS, EMPS, DARKS, KINS. I have however ran with several different Trick Arrow fenders!! Sadly I think on a defender people still have this way of looking down on Trick Arrow defenders. Given that anytime I invite one I get the "Look I don't have heals, is that ok??" Retort.
I think the general mind set is that people want their defenders to be certain sets and that causes many people to shy away. |
look into crystal ball.... see's the future....
AR
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
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Part of the problem with Sonic (and FF) is simply that they don't do enough.|
Originally Posted by Arondell
The reason is that for 30 seconds liquify, for most practical purposes, gives a team better defense then Force Field while making anything in the game easy pickings. I'm thinking specifically of those pesky Paragon Protectors that manage to get Moment of Glory activated in this case.
People seem to get into this mode of thought that powers exist in a vacuum. Radiation infection is one of the backbone powers of the set it is in. Liquify is a very very nice "extra" that for thirty seconds boosts Sonic Resonances defense/offense capabilities significantly above the norm. No its not "as good as" Fulcrum Shift. Then again what is? |
Yes Resist debuffs and buffs are ther backbone of what Sonic does, but what sonic does do is Lacking as a set anyhow.
Radiation provides almost as much Defense and ToHit debuffing (but all the time) that sonic can, as much AoE resist debuffing (which doesn't require a cooperative melee teammate)(More if you have a helpfully dead teammate), and while it cannot provide resist buffs can provide almost as good of (or better) mitigation via Damage debuffs, heals and more effective control.
Sonic simply doesn't do enough for Liquefy's recharge to be justified.
YMMV, IMO, Etc etc.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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That actually shifts the point from Liquify isn't good enough to Sonic isn't good enough. It also enters the realm of how each power works and the relative advantages/disadvantages of buffs vs debuffs. I'm not going there.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Sonic simply doesn't do enough for Liquefy's recharge to be justified.
YMMV, IMO, Etc etc. |
I think sonic and FF buffs are great but not quite well appreciated. At the early levels, the bubble buffs by themselves are not quite enough to keep people alive, and this is particularly true for sonic buffs. Players might get discouraged early.
In principle, the importance of the buffs should be more obvious for high-level contents. Because there will be AVs that hit really hard, and melee players need the buff to stay alive. But it turns out that teams tend to find tankers that can take the hit, for example finding a stone tanker and a kinetics, rather than finding some other tankers that need buffing to stay alive. I think players usually don't get around challenges by using bubble buffs. (Don't tell me that blasters can tank with all the buffs. There are still significant differences between a buffed blaster and a buffed tanker.)
I have FF and sonic defenders, and a cold corruptor. From the point of view of a buffer, bubbling is a little repetitive. I think this is a contributing factor for not many players enjoying the sets. I don't think that the bubbling is terrible, but I believe everyone who plays a bubbler should somehow understand the feeling.
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Mostly because people never LRN2KB properly. They either do it wrong or never even bother to use it to begin with. The Ally Bubbles + Force Bolt when used intelligently can keep an entire team alive in the early levels.... with the sole exception of Vahzilok.... hate them.... SO. MUCH.
| I think sonic and FF buffs are great but not quite well appreciated. At the early levels, the bubble buffs by themselves are not quite enough to keep people alive |
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2 1/2 years of playing this game and I've seen a total or 3 /TA controllers. Many TA/ defenders though.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
There are lots of /TA controllers around. /TA is the go to secondary for any controller that wants LOTS of control.
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To be fair to Sonic, Laying down DF at the beginning of a mission on a tank and staying in range is a lot simpler than applying and reapplying EF with every single group you encounter (usually more than once in the bigger teams, if we're talking about uncooperative teammates |
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Radiation provides as much AoE resist debuffing
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), and beyond that, the activation time and recharge downtime mean that even the most efficient rad toggler will have the debuffs laid on much less than the sonic if he lays it on the tank.Quote:
| and while it cannot provide resist buffs can provide almost as good of (or better) mitigation via Damage debuffs, heals and more effective control. |
Do feel free to detail a counter tho I'm probably a bit too fond of buffs for my own good lol
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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Hah! I lol'd
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Originally Posted by macskull
On live? Traps and AR.
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Id say least used is either Trick arrow or Cold Dom or sonic res.
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FF is one of the best sets to use to protect the team against Vahz especially in the early levels.|
Originally Posted by Westley
Mostly because people never LRN2KB properly. They either do it wrong or never even bother to use it to begin with. The Ally Bubbles + Force Bolt when used intelligently can keep an entire team alive in the early levels.... with the sole exception of Vahzilok.... hate them.... SO. MUCH.
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Here's the power description on Deflection Shield:
Defense Smashing - 15%
Defense Lethal - 15%
Defense Melee - 15%
Resistance Toxic - 40% (unenhanceable)
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Strange I have 6 in my stable alone:|
Originally Posted by Hatred666
2 1/2 years of playing this game and I've seen a total or 3 /TA controllers. Many TA/ defenders though.
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1 Earth/TA/Primal on 3 of the 4 servers that I play on. (Yes they are just that good).
1 Plant/TA/Fire
1 Fire/TA/Ice
and a poor lonely TA/A defender
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Sonic/ is what I see the less. I have one and I love it to bits. I get compliments every now and then because players do notice my presence and influence on a team's performance. Second less seen is FF, imo. I get TA's on my team rather frequently compared to FFs (I'm not saying people don't have them, I'm sure there's a whole bunch of'em around. Just saying they don't PLAY it).
@False Fiction - Virtue / Defiant
Current projects - [Glaciologist - Ill/Cold Troller] [Cloudshaper - Storm/Dark Def] [Harald Wartooth - Elec/Psi Domi]
I wish there were more Sonic/ Defenders on my server.
Then agian i wish there were more Defenders in general on my server.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
There are lots of /TA controllers around. /TA is the go to secondary for any controller that wants LOTS of control.
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True. I have a Fire/TA, which I chose for 2 reasons: 1) Too damn many Fire/Kins around, didn't want to be another one of the throngs of them, and 2) Fire is great for damage, but lacks a little on the contol side. The major downside is I have no way to protect my imps from damage, so they die a lot.
On topic: Sonic Resonance is by far the least chosen set. Followed by Cold.
Empathy and Rad are probably the top 2.
Secondary-wise, Energy and Electric are probably the least chosen.
Sonic, Ice, Dark, and Archery seem to all be about equally popular.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I guess I should cherish my sonic/psi defender since I've never seen another one.
You don't see a ton of sonics but disruption field + howl = -50% res for baddies ftw. That and remember to keep shields on teammates and your job is done : )