Notes on new team difficulty settings
By
Abigail Frost,
Posted on: 2009-08-26 15:02 in The Market and Inventions
D: Hatechu
I tried dropstats, but got the following:
$ perl /cygdrive/c/drop/dropstats.pl game/chatlog\ 09-20-2009.txt
----------------------------------
Archie Gremlin's Drop Stats v0.3.0
http://www.glasspaw.com/dropstats/
----------------------------------
Illegal division by zero at /cygdrive/c/drop/dropstats.pl line 178.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
It sure looks like I picked a good time to take a break from the game. This helps reduce the temptation to return prematurely. I hope it gets fixed in a timely, but not too timely way.
Thanks to everyone who tested and such, an impressive effort.
Quote:
Nuts. |
Originally Posted by TopDoc
I tried dropstats, but got the following:
$ perl /cygdrive/c/drop/dropstats.pl game/chatlog\ 09-20-2009.txt ---------------------------------- Archie Gremlin's Drop Stats v0.3.0 http://www.glasspaw.com/dropstats/ ---------------------------------- Illegal division by zero at /cygdrive/c/drop/dropstats.pl line 178. |
I'll look into this today.
P.S. Please PM me with DropStats bugs. I might not always see forum posts and I really want it to be bug free.
Quote:
EarthWyrm was also asking what's in Pool A.|
Originally Posted by Beber
BTW, are Purple recipes include in Pool A? Because I think I dropped more purples than rare recipes... And seeing how purple prices are decreasing at the market, it seems that purples have no problems in dropping (whereas some uncommon are getting higher and higher...).
|
Based on reading the Wiki, I believe that Pool A includes purples and temporary power recipes. It doesn't include costume pieces which are in Pool E.
From some of the testing I've seen it looks like Pool A rares are only about twice as common as purples. This means that it wouldn't be unusual to get a few purples in a big run and fewer rares.
Just to finish the set... Recipes that drop when you complete a mission are Pool B. Pools C and D contain lots of juicy recipes. They used to be awarded for completing trials and task forces. These days they've been combined and you now get them from random rolls or defeating bosses. I suspect that getting one from a boss defeat is very rare.
This is the break down that DropStats uses except that it counts Pool C/D critter drops as Pool A.
Quote:
I've released version 0.3.1 that fixes this. (I think! Please let me know if it hasn't.) |
Originally Posted by Archie Gremlin
Nuts.
I'll look into this today. |
Thanks very much to NordBlast and TopDoc for reporting the bug.
Were any of you who saw this bug in AE or super group mode?
Quote:
Nemesis platform/Army base?|
Originally Posted by EnD_Reitanna
Ran Nemesis map vill side solo:
|
or
Boomtown map?
I want to see if I can replicate the same proportion of drops.
Repeat Offenders
Kitteh, I ran the Lib TV nemi map, +6/with bosses, and got a pretty nice set of recipes. Half of them were commons, the other half poolA. I grabbed DropStats and will get some real data from runs later today/tonight.
/w
Quote:
When I've run that map I've either gotten right around 100% of expected (spawned for 8 with no bosses, that's around 26-28 recipes) or right around 50% of expected. I also got my only purple since I16 dropped on one of those runs. It's a relatively small number of runs, but the consistency of what I've seen in terms of realized vs. expected Pool A (common/uncommon/rare/purple treated as a single pool) has been noteworthy.
|
Originally Posted by Walleye_
Kitteh, I ran the Lib TV nemi map, +6/with bosses, and got a pretty nice set of recipes. Half of them were commons, the other half poolA. I grabbed DropStats and will get some real data from runs later today/tonight.
/w |
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Most of my testing with it (by volume of kills) has been that map spawned for 6, and it's been low.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Nope, on the test server, so no SG. And this was a regular Unai mission, no flashback involved.|
Originally Posted by Archie Gremlin
Were any of you who saw this bug in AE or super group mode?
|
I couldn't easily get the perl from cygwin to work, so I installed the recommended one. Here are my stats from a long mish last night.
Code:
---------------------------------- Archie Gremlin's Drop Stats v0.3.1 http://www.glasspaw.com/dropstats/ ---------------------------------- Type DropRate Drops Expected Mobs -------------------------------------------------------- Pool A 0.29% 2 11-28 687 minion equivalents Salvage 8.45% 52 37-64 615 minion equivalents -------------------------------------------------------- (Table excludes mobs of unknown rank and their drops.) (1 in 20 runs will be outside the expected range.) 537 rewarding mobs defeated 55 bosses and elite bosses 117 lieutenants 288 minions 77 underlings (XP only) 537 inf/debt rewards 3365703 inf 2 Pool A recipes (Mob Defeats) 1 uncommon and rare recipes Enfeebled Operation: Acc/End (Recipe) 1 common recipes 52 salvage 1 rare 7 uncommon 44 common 4 single origin enhancements 135 inspirations (3 tier 3, 42 tier 2, 90 tier 1, 0 special) 0 other drops
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Walleye and EarthWyrm: Thanks. I'll try the LTV (and Nemesis as well) this week with varying set-ups.
Repeat Offenders
Quote:
I just tried it with the cygwin perl and it didn't work for me either (couldn't identify the rank of the mobs, so no analysis.) I tried on a Linux box with a slightly older perl (5.8) and same problem. I'll try the one he recommended and see what I get.|
Originally Posted by TopDoc
I couldn't easily get the perl from cygwin to work, so I installed the recommended one. Here are my stats from a long mish last night.
|
[EDIT: using the active state perl works. Drop rate info coming later...]
/w
When I ran Levanteras 1st arc (RWZ) yesterday (+1, 8, bosses, no AV - ran it solo) I got 1 recharge and 2 range IO for the whole arc (I cleared all maps) plus 1 rare setIO from mission complete.
In addition to that, I noticed that bosses weren't spawning as expected.
The only bosses encountered were captive/bomb guards, patrol leaders and the "last room boss".
In a normal 8-person team you usually get two bosses per spawn. Instead I got larger than normal spawns consisting of minions and lts. ... (double checked my settings after that).
My drop rates were even lower than what some people are reporting here. Here's my data (did pencil n paper method, but will run dropstats next time.)
Soloed 3 paper mishs set to 8-man (completed 1, farmed the other 2.) Killed 400+ bad guys - 1 recipie recieved (a Numi End/Heal.) along with 41 salvage and lots of insp drops.
Posted recipie drop rate (by Positron):
Enemy Rate
Minion 2.666667%
Lieutenant/Sniper 5.333333%
Boss/Elite Boss 7.999999%
Assuming just minion drop rates, I should average 10-11 recipe drops in that time.
Doing simple binomial probability, getting just 1 recipe should happen about .02% of the time or 2 times in 10,000 runs like this.
Hopefully will have more data soon...
Thought I would chime in here and let you know what we've done to test this. The data has been checked, the code has been checked. There has been no change to either. That said, none of us would be satisfied until we tested this for ourselves. I knew this issue would haunt my dreams until I dedicated some time to testing. So, I went and did some pretty comprehensive testing today. Both internally and on the training room.
The results are pretty consistent and drop rates appear to be correct. The way I tested this is load up the first mission given out by Abyss (as a number of players mentioned this in their tests). I then set my difficulty to 8x and +0. I then went through this mission 5 times internally and 10 times on the training room and the results were very consistent:
-14 to 19 recipes per mission
-5 to 8 enhancements per mission
-30 to 51 salvage per mission
So, for the time being I am calling this a perception issue, that said I will keep an eye on this. If there is in fact a bug at work here then there will be reproducible steps one could take to get this bug to happen to anyone. If anyone does in fact nail down possible repro steps for this bug, please PM me or post them in the forums.
I know this isn't the answer many of you were hoping to hear, but I will keep an eye on the issue. Again, please contact me via PM if you have any possible reproducible steps. Lastly, I want to clear up any rumors of a "stealth nerf" or drops being different per map. Drop rates are on a per class basis. All minions, lieutenants and bosses have the same drop rates as all other minions, lieutenants and bosses regardless of what map they're on. The only difference is what items they drop (magic salvage vs. tech salvage, different origin enhancements and such)
Regards,
Synapse
Synapse, please retest on live using paper/scanner missions. Also please test at +4/x8. I'll go retest at +0/x8.
I'm specifically using CoT and Council at +4/x8 because arachnos and carnies kick my butt at that diff.
Be well, people of CoH.
Quote:
Synapse, there is hard data in this thread. We aren't (just) perceiving lowered drop rates, we are measuring them.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
So, for the time being I am calling this a perception issue
|
I don't know how to reconcile the differences in what we're measuring with what you're measuring.
Edit: I haven't done any runs at team size of 8. I've been using size 4 and 6 (mostly 6). I don't know if that helps.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Now my question (to Synapse or anyone else who can answer): Are the numbers listed above consistent with the number of drops a team of 8 players would typically receive while running the same mission at +0 difficulty?
|
Originally Posted by Synapse
The way I tested this is load up the first mission given out by Abyss (as a number of players mentioned this in their tests). I then set my difficulty to 8x and +0. I then went through this mission 5 times internally and 10 times on the training room and the results were very consistent:
-14 to 19 recipes per mission -5 to 8 enhancements per mission -30 to 51 salvage per mission |
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
I don't have a bunch of hard numbers (yet), but I have done several runs on my zombie map, a map I am on *ahem* intimate terms with, and unless I'm in the middle of some sort of epochal, unprecedented statistical drought there's something desperately wrong with recipe drops.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
I'd just like to chime in here. Now I wish I had some repo steps for you synapse but I don't really. Just my observations while leveling my new elec/em tank|
Originally Posted by Synapse
Thought I would chime in here and let you know what we've done to test this. The data has been checked, the code has been checked. There has been no change to either. That said, none of us would be satisfied until we tested this for ourselves. I knew this issue would haunt my dreams until I dedicated some time to testing. So, I went and did some pretty comprehensive testing today. Both internally and on the training room.
The results are pretty consistent and drop rates appear to be correct. The way I tested this is load up the first mission given out by Abyss (as a number of players mentioned this in their tests). I then set my difficulty to 8x and +0. I then went through this mission 5 times internally and 10 times on the training room and the results were very consistent: -14 to 19 recipes per mission -5 to 8 enhancements per mission -30 to 51 salvage per mission So, for the time being I am calling this a perception issue, that said I will keep an eye on this. If there is in fact a bug at work here then there will be reproducible steps one could take to get this bug to happen to anyone. If anyone does in fact nail down possible repro steps for this bug, please PM me or post them in the forums. I know this isn't the answer many of you were hoping to hear, but I will keep an eye on the issue. Again, please contact me via PM if you have any possible reproducible steps. Lastly, I want to clear up any rumors of a "stealth nerf" or drops being different per map. Drop rates are on a per class basis. All minions, lieutenants and bosses have the same drop rates as all other minions, lieutenants and bosses regardless of what map they're on. The only difference is what items they drop (magic salvage vs. tech salvage, different origin enhancements and such) Regards, Synapse |
While leveling from 1 to 20 I was almost 100% the time teamed. Durring that time I got exactly 3 recipie drops. salvage, enhancement and insperation drops seemed to be right on. It wasn't till I started to run more solo (doing cape mission, gaining access to the Midnight squad, and other things to earn more merrits) that I started to see an increse in recipie drops. and even still I'll run entire missions with a team and not get a single recipie. Had the same experiance runing a MoSTF on my main 50 on saturday, i'd guess I got maybe 5 recipes the whole TF
bassicly it seems that the drop rate for recipes are normal if your solo, even when set for a higher team multiplier. but when teamed the drop rate is almost divided by all memebers of the team. Example: A minnion would normaly have a 10% chance of dropping a recipie per person, observatinos indicate a minion has a 10% chance of dropping a recipie per team. efectivily give each person an 1/8th of a chance the normal drop rate per minnion or in my example 1.25%. (Note: i know 10% isn't the right percentage for a minnion recipie drop rate, just using it as an example)
V-Tronix - Angry Angels
V-Tron Elec/EM - V-Tron X EM/EA
To Build a Better Hero #53098 [Newly edited and looking for Feedback] - Renegade Robots: V-Tron's Task Force # - A Summer Song and A Winters Tail #104106
Quote:
Thanks for the response, Synapse.|
Originally Posted by Synapse
The way I tested this is load up the first mission given out by Abyss (as a number of players mentioned this in their tests). I then set my difficulty to 8x and +0. I then went through this mission 5 times internally and 10 times on the training room and the results were very consistent:
-14 to 19 recipes per mission -5 to 8 enhancements per mission -30 to 51 salvage per mission |
However, like UberGuy, I'm a loss on why the mounds of data in this thread are not being properly accounted.
I have personal and coalition obligations over the next two evenings, but I'm gonna run this Abyss mish *to death* before the weekend...and I'll post the data. I hope others can do the same.
Repeat Offenders
As per my prior post, I'm now testing at +0/x8.
Mission 1:
7 basic recipes
10 common 2 uncommon salvage
I'm going to run 20 of these. And then I'm going to push back up to +4/x8 and run another 20. When done, I'll post results.
Be well, people of CoH.
Synapse:
For a single player, no matter what the virtual team size, the drop rate is correct. Where the issue is is not with the single player, but rather the real team drop rate.
Previously, the drop logic seemed to work per player on the team. In other words, everyone got the same chance to get a recipie drop from a mob. There would be, say, eight rolls per mob dropped. Even with a lower chance, the odds are that someone would get something eventualy, at a higher rate than solo.
Now, it seems like what's happening is that one person [team leader] gets that chance, and then the drop is reassigned among the team members.
There is a logic error somewhere. Maybe it's not in the generation of drops, but the assignment of them. Get a team of players together, not just a virtual team, and do this on Live.
Conditions on Live are different, the random number generator is hit far more often, and there might be a contributing factor in the lag and occasional loss of sync on Live that are not possible on your internal test server.
Boo for misdirection!