Red Caps and Evil ...
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2009-08-24 15:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Well, considering that Snaptooth (a powerful Redcap AV) gets his jollies by kidnapping Baby New Year and trying to screw up DJ Zero's fun... yeah, I think they're evil. Not Evil Overlord evil, but banal, jerk-esque evil.
"Let your plans be dark and as impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt." --Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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Given how cavalier they are about causing evil and mischief and how much they enjoy the suffering, I would say that is a conscious choice. You can't feign inescapable fate if you delight in fulfilling it to its fullest.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
If the Red Caps' lives depend on the suffering they create, do they have a choice in what they do? Or are they just like a predator doing what it has to do in order to survive?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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After reading the souvenir and some other text, it never really says they need to sustain conflict to survive. It looks like it's more for power and pleasure.
Also, the Red Caps are part of the Unseelie Court*, and all the Unseelie are evil to some degree. (Some more evil than others, of course)
* Okay, I don't think the game actually says that, but there is an Unseelie Court faction, and Red Caps in real-world myths are a part of the Unseelie Court.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Feeding off the misery of an eternal war they create by using spiritual slavery, racial torture, and triggering a dimensional apocalypse....
naw, not evil at all!
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They're evil - they're magical creatures, so I'm sure they could find another way to survive without being nasty 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
How could lawn gnomes that have come to life not be evil
Next you'll be feeling sympathy for vampires.
They're one of the most monstrous factions in this game.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Feeding off the misery of an eternal war they create by using spiritual slavery, racial torture, and triggering a dimensional apocalypse....
naw, not evil at all! |
I think Zombie Man wins the thread...
But in all seriousness, just look at their names. They're called "Red Caps" because they dye their (hilarious looking) hats in the blood of their fallen foes.
So yeah, they're evil. The weird, twisted form of evil.
And I desperately want their daggers.
To right the countless wrongs of our day, we shine the light of true redemption, that this place may become as paradise. What a wonderful world such would be....
I'm sorry what was that, I couldn't hear you over my TRAGIC PAST!!
I would say they're evil. Not because they create conflict, but because they revel in it. If they did it reluctantly, if they limited the suffering inflicted on others to the bare minimum, then you could argue that they aren't evil (as I agree with that quote from Martin). However, they don't. They love it.
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Some of the Unseelies follow Eochai though. He's the leader of the Fir Bolg, sworn enemies to the Red Caps.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Also, the Red Caps are part of the Unseelie Court*, and all the Unseelie are evil to some degree. (Some more evil than others, of course)
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to be fair though, if they dont keep their hats red, they die, so his question, can your actions be considered evil if you don't have a choice, is a valid philosophical one, but all the text i have read them say ingame indicates that not only do they do horrible things, they really enjoy it, so its hard to think of them choosing otherwise. Its not like angel or spike living on blood from butcher shops to keep from hurting people, they seem to love being murderous little psychos.
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Originally Posted by Justice_Reaper
I think Zombie Man wins the thread...
But in all seriousness, just look at their names. They're called "Red Caps" because they dye their (hilarious looking) hats in the blood of their fallen foes. So yeah, they're evil. The weird, twisted form of evil. And I desperately want their daggers. |
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It's at this point that you ask whether they would continue performing those actions if they were no longer bound to doing so in order to sustain themselves. If, through some esoteric, arbitrary, mega-magic, you could remove any biological/magical/biomagical imperative for them to inflict pain while simultaneously having them realize that they're free of the compulsion, and they continued to do so, they would definitely be evil simply because they are willingly partaking in the action. If they didn't, they wouldn't be.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
to be fair though, if they dont keep their hats red, they die, so his question, can your actions be considered evil if you don't have a choice, is a valid philosophical one, but all the text i have read them say ingame indicates that not only do they do horrible things, they really enjoy it, so its hard to think of them choosing otherwise. Its not like angel or spike living on blood from butcher shops to keep from hurting people, they seem to love being murderous little psychos.
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Of course, you then get into the philosophical discussion of whether evil is determined by the action or by the intent. If the action determines the morality, then they're evil by definition of causing suffering for whatever reason (heroes would probably be spared from this definition of evil because they're causing suffering to prevent a greater degree of suffering in the same manner that doctors can cause harm by cutting a patient open in order to heal that individual, but that depends on how exactly you're going to adhere to the maxim of action-morality determination). If the intent determines the morality, then my previous commentary is the applicable one.
humans get pleasure from things that keep both the individual and the species alive, and so do the redcaps
they're only as evil as every other organism
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First, as said they enjoy what they do way too much. And second, they are indiscriminate; a being with scruples that had to feed on suffering could at least choose evil victims. Redcaps would do horrible nasty things to people whether or not they needed to.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
So what do you think? Are the Red Caps evil if they do what they do in order to survive?
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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And yet, most people enjoy a really good steak or pork chop and aren't at all reluctant about it ... |
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
First, as said they enjoy what they do way too much. And second, they are indiscriminate; a being with scruples that had to feed on suffering could at least choose evil victims. Redcaps would do horrible nasty things to people whether or not they needed to.
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And honestly, I do find the Red Caps to be one of the most evil groups in the game, but the first time I caught that reference in the text it did get me thinking.
And I think that if a choice could be given to the Red Caps at this point they'd still choose to do evil because morality (as we understand it) or empathy for other creatures would be poisonous or repugnant to a Red Cap. There can't be any place in their moral framework for that sort of thing because it's counter to their survival instincts.
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links
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And I gain a great amount of pleasure from a big greasy burger which I contiously decided to eat. That doesn't change th fact that I'll need to eat it if I'm going to survive. Sure, some cow somewhere died for that burger, but eating it is so natural to a human that it's not evil to enjoy it despite an animal's death.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Given how cavalier they are about causing evil and mischief and how much they enjoy the suffering, I would say that is a conscious choice. You can't feign inescapable fate if you delight in fulfilling it to its fullest.
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It only looks evil from or perspective because we're the cows. But in reality, the Red Caps are only fulfilling their needs and enjoying it, no differant than we would.
The off-beat space pirate...Capt. Stormrider (50+3 Elec/Storm Science Corruptor)
The mysterious Djinn...Emerald Dervish (50+1 DB/DA Magic Stalker)
The psychotic inventor...Dollmaster (50 Bot/FF Tech Mastermind)
Virtue Forever.
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This, plus the fact that you basically find out that the Eochai, Tuatha, and Cabal aren't really that bad (but still continue to have chances to fight them afterward anyway!) is why my character with a bent for exaggeration who likes annoying heroes calls Croatoa 'that area with the city-sanctioned ethnic cleansing.'
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Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
And I gain a great amount of pleasure from a big greasy burger which I contiously decided to eat. That doesn't change th fact that I'll need to eat it if I'm going to survive. Sure, some cow somewhere died for that burger, but eating it is so natural to a human that it's not evil to enjoy it despite an animal's death.
It only looks evil from or perspective because we're the cows. But in reality, the Red Caps are only fulfilling their needs and enjoying it, no differant than we would. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Red Caps are little jerks who like to pound the top of your head like it's a bongo drum. Of course, they're just doing what they're born to do. They're not as evil as Westin Phipps of Haven House, who simply delights in inflicting pain and misery and oppresses the weak for his own sadistic pleasure and getting paid by Arachnos for his collaboration.
With the Tuatha and the Fir Bolg free they'd have to find some other poor suckers to feed off of, though. They're parasitic...evil like a tapeworm is evil (ps there needs to be a giant tapeworm monster inhabiting the Sewers), but still bad news.
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You don't enjoy eating? You don't get pleasure from it? |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Given how cavalier they are about causing evil and mischief and how much they enjoy the suffering, I would say that is a conscious choice. You can't feign inescapable fate if you delight in fulfilling it to its fullest.
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I do. Even to the point of reveling in all the dead cows, fish and whatever other meats I've eaten.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Next you'll be feeling sympathy for vampires.
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Will they sparkle?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
This thread is chock-full of people who are usually the last victim in the horror movie. The monster has raged and slaughtered, but there's always the one guy who jumps in front of the weapon/machine/angry mob/whatever and says "Wait! It's just misunderstood! If we can just give it a hug, try to understand it!"
Then the monster yanks his spine out, or claws off the top half of his head, and the weapon/etc. is finally used. Hugs. Credits.
I've been slugging through Croatoa lately, and something I read there during the Kelly Nemmers' arc made me think about something I've thought about before:
Are the Red Caps evil?
What I mean is, you find out during Kelly's arc that the Red Caps are sustained by the conflict they have created: quite literally, the suffering of others is their "food."
That being the case, is what they do "evil"?
There's a comment in a George RRR Martin book, Fevre Dream, which roughly paraphrased is: "Without choice, there can be no evil."
If the Red Caps' lives depend on the suffering they create, do they have a choice in what they do? Or are they just like a predator doing what it has to do in order to survive?
(The reason that this is on my mind is that a while back I created an ice/ice blaster whose origin is basically that he's a human/elf hybrid ... and his particular breed of elf depend on happiness and joy to survive ... they're a kind of anti-Red Cap.)
So what do you think? Are the Red Caps evil if they do what they do in order to survive?
My COX Fanfiction:
Blue's Assembled Story Links