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TonyV is actually hitting the nail on the head here. And the cheat code thing was an excellent example, V.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
*whoosh...* There goes the point, right over your head.
The point, of course, is that "Make it really easy and leave it up to the players to make it as hard as they want" is not a practical MO. No matter how easy you make it, there will always be someone who wants it to be even easier, and it doesn't take long before you start making the game less fun, not more. For a few months, I thought Doom was a cool game and played it a lot. Then someone told me about the cheat codes. For another few days, I thought it was a really cool game. Then I never played it again. Sure, I could have played it exactly like I always had before, but why bother? I had seen the whole game already, and it seemed pointless. This game is a little different in that "winning" isn't really the ultimate goal. Still, it does need that hook to get people interested and hold them long enough to transition to where the real fun is. Without it, we all might as well be playing Second Life. So if you think it's a strawman, then answering my original question shouldn't be too terribly difficult for you. Are you willing to accept the premise that there is such a thing as making the game too easy? |
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Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
SRS BZNS
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Why do I always read that as 'several beans'?
Cuz you're lysdexic?
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No, REAL winners avoid a good point made by someone else by attacking that person instead.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Real winners flaunt their ability to quote words they heard in debate class. It makes them cool and boosts their credibility.
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I'd tell you what that's called, but you'd get upset because you'd think I heard it in "debate class" (I've never taken a debate class... I haven't even been in a classroom in almost 20 years).
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Avast ye!|
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
Cuz you're lysdexic?
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*whimper* Don't do that. You have no idea what it does to my imagination. And I like my imagination right where it is, sitting on a box, humming to itself.
Explorer: 93%. Achiever: 40%. Socializer: 40%. Killer 33%.
Current Heroes and Villains (altitis holding at 50 currents)
To all the devs, past, present, (and may there be) future: /salute
To NCSoft: Understand that you reap what you plant, and you cannot gain what you throw away.
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Yes, because it's very similar to the cheat codes in CoX.
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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
TonyV is actually hitting the nail on the head here. And the cheat code thing was an excellent example, V.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I always see it as "Serious Beans".
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Originally Posted by Lady_Athyna
Why do I always read that as 'several beans'?
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Some games are actually improved via cheat codes. Oni's reservoirdogs code made that one of the funniest games ever.
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Originally Posted by Bookkeeper_Jay
And the cheat code thing was an excellent example, V.
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Of course, because beans have a Z in them before the N! It's SCIENCE!
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Originally Posted by Smurch
I always see it as "Serious Beans".
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Oh good. Then it's not a sign of some impending mental breakdown to see beans everywhere.
*whew*
My thoughts in no particular order
- Eph WoW
- Isn't comparing this game to other MMOs against some kind of rule or something?
- The game is nowhere near to being as trivialized as Doom with cheat codes, and so drawing that parralel is absurd and shouldn't be taken seriously.
- I like ***
- Snackcake!
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
Attention horde? Laminated raccoons? Where are these tags coming from?
Also: POST HOC ERGO PROPER HOC!
Man, it's so much fun saying that.
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Actually, I've seen a lot of misguided outrage precisely over people wanting a god mode for the game. Tanker nerfs, Enhancement Diversification, farm mission timers, Mission Architect bannings and critter nerfs, and many more such things always draw cries of, "Now that I can't [insert exploit here], I'm leaving!" Who here has also seen suggestions for various means of completely skipping the first n levels? *raises hand*|
Originally Posted by Smurch
No, I got the point entirely. I think your premise is flawed. I don't think anyone was advocating "make a god mode for the game and let players choose to turn it on or not", which is exactly what you're implying.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
Using a jet pack making the game too easy? Don't use one.
Using the mission teleporter making the game too easy? Don't use it. Day job bonuses making the game too easy? Don't earn them. Heck, even the exp curve smoothing can be circumvented now that we can turn off exp. |
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Originally Posted by Smurch
What people ARE saying is if you find QoL features in the game, like jetpacks (which was in fact the example cited), to make the game "too easy" for you (compared to what, I wonder) then don't use one.
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Originally Posted by Smurch
I don't consider quality of life improvements like jetpacks, or being able to choose rewards, like tickets, to make gameplay any easier in any significant way.
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And it's not a new phenomenon. I remember how sweet it was to get the jump jet pack, because it meant that I could actually navigate around in places like Skyway City and Port Oakes in seconds instead of minutes (and avoid the likelihood of being stomped by a Caliban in the process).
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Originally Posted by Smurch
So the question of "easier" is irrelevent, because none of the changes so far have anything to do with ease of PLAY.
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- Jet packs: Allows you to avoid enemies on the ground at low levels. Easier gameplay? Check.
- Mission teleporter: Allows you to avoid having to traverse potentially high-level enemies to get to your mission. Easier gameplay? Check.
- Day job bonuses: Depending on the exact bonus, allows you to potentially avoid high-level enemies via fly or teleport, have extra endurance, have extra health, move faster, etc. Easier gameplay? Check.
- Experience curve smoothing: Probably the only one mentioned that comes out a wash as to how much easier gameplay is.
Again, I'm not saying that all of this is bad. (*Whoosh*!--another point you're probably missing.) I'm simply saying that while some QoL improvements that have made the game easier are welcome, in general it's not a good idea.
So again: Are you willing to accept the premise that there is such a thing as making the game too easy?
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
But if the game didn't get easier the vets wouldn't be able to have numerous "In my day.../Remember when.../Kid's these days..." convos.
*misses Hollows death-runs*
Now @Eskimo-Spy
I'm not evil.
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Originally Posted by Eskimo_Spy_EU
But if the game didn't get easier the vets wouldn't be able to have numerous "In my day.../Remember when.../Kid's these days..." convos.
*misses Hollows death-runs* |
Rex Dart, is that you???
One of my favorite MST3K moments, heh.
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Snackcake!!
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Originally Posted by Smurch
No, REAL winners avoid a good point made by someone else by attacking that person instead.
I'd tell you what that's called, but you'd get upset because you'd think I heard it in "debate class" (I've never taken a debate class... I haven't even been in a classroom in almost 20 years). |
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And some people wallow in their ignorance, shamed into throwing out insults when they don't understand something.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Real winners flaunt their ability to quote words they heard in debate class. It makes them cool and boosts their credibility.
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"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Originally Posted by Lady_Athyna
Why do I always read that as 'several beans'?
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you leave my beans out of this!!!!!
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
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Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
And some people wallow in their ignorance, shamed into throwing out insults when they don't understand something.
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WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????? you're a doodiehead, i'm gonna go back to wallowing now
(ok, so after 12 hours of a 15 hour overnight shift, i can't stop myself from posting like a drunken idiot )
Oh yeah, that was the time that girl got her whatchamacallit stuck in that guys dooblickitz and then what his name did that thing with the lizards and it cleared right up.
screw your joke, i want "FREEM"
"REBUTTAL!"
Cool.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville