I don't get the connection...
To quote Angelica from Rugrats: "If you have to ask, you'll never know".
Yeah well, she's a ***** and no one cares what she thinks.
Explain to me.
People are always ALWAYS complaining around here about how much "easier" the game is getting and that it's getting "too easy" and how all this "stuff" that people can get is just being GIVEN away when it was SO HARD for them to get it when THEY got it the first time...
Other than smoothing the exp curve and the reductions in, and caps on, debt, this game is as easy as you choose to make it.
Using a jet pack making the game too easy? Don't use one.
Using the mission teleporter making the game too easy? Don't use it.
Day job bonuses making the game too easy? Don't earn them.
Heck, even the exp curve smoothing can be circumvented now that we can turn off exp.
I personally think those additions have made the game more enjoyable.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
So do I mouse, but some don't.
People say this about every MMO, PK.
You should have heard the screaming in LOTRO when freakin' quest arrows were added. Veterans were incensed that you would no longer need to read the NPC quest chat to figure out where the boars that you need to slaughter are. It was the beginnging of Easy Mode!
The fact is that CoX has always been an easy game, so it getting easier (more convenient, really) shouldn't be an issue for someone who enjoys the core gameplay.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Mental, the colors on your banner are FREAKING ME OUT, man. They're all trippy and acidy...
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Mission Accomplished! |
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
Mental, the colors on your banner are FREAKING ME OUT, man. They're all trippy and acidy...
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Personally I've not seen many complaints about things like these, whether on the forums or in-game.
Most of the grouses I have seen revolve around the game getting harder: how they can no longer afford purples, how X power or Y powerset was nerfed, how this or that change made their farming less lucrative or their drops less frequent, etc.
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Yeah, but where do you stop? You could make the exact same arguments for stuff like:|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
Other than smoothing the exp curve and the reductions in, and caps on, debt, this game is as easy as you choose to make it.
... I personally think those additions have made the game more enjoyable. |
Want the challenge of earning your levels? Just don't use /make_me_50.
Want to earn influence instead of just having it handed to you? Just don't use /billion_inf.
Want to actually challenge yourself and see the enemies you're defeating? Just don't use /complete_mission.
Want to actually fulfill requirements the hard way? Don't type /all_badges.
This isn't all theoretical. One thing that comes to mind is that there have been some people screaming for years to make the Positron task force easier and/or the Dr. Quaterfield task force shorter. Do I think that they're a pain in the butt? Sure. Still, it's kind of groovy knowing that I put in the time and effort, and that I've been rewarded something for it that those who choose not to don't have. There should be some stuff in the game that's a pain in the butt. With no challenge, there's also no fulfillment in accomplishments.
Now, I'm not saying that there is no room for QoL improvements, that everything should be a pain in the butt, or that nothing should ever be made easier. It's just that I don't think it's a good thing to make everything trivially easy and let people make it harder as they want. With these features, there needs to be an honest assessment of how it will affect the game, whether it will make it so easy that people will get bored and stop playing, how much resentment it will cause among those who played the "old" way, whether it's really making the game more fun for most people or just coddling people who don't like to actually play the thing.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Well on the one hand, quest arrows don't sound like that big of a deal...|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
People say this about every MMO, PK.
You should have heard the screaming in LOTRO when freakin' quest arrows were added. Veterans were incensed that you would no longer need to read the NPC quest chat to figure out where the boars that you need to slaughter are. It was the beginnging of Easy Mode! |
On the other hand, anything that further encourages the encroaching illiteracy of Americans is problematic.
So... I think I have to side with the LotR vets on that one, albeit not necessarily for the same reasons.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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No, not theoretical. The correct phrase is "reductio ad ridiculum". Maybe a little bit of a Straw Man too.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Yeah, but where do you stop? You could make the exact same arguments for stuff like:
Want the challenge of earning your levels? Just don't use /make_me_50. Want to earn influence instead of just having it handed to you? Just don't use /billion_inf. Want to actually challenge yourself and see the enemies you're defeating? Just don't use /complete_mission. Want to actually fulfill requirements the hard way? Don't type /all_badges. This isn't all theoretical. |
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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Some people think the game is too easy (I'm one of those, but the upcoming difficulty slider will solve my issues)|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Personally I've not seen many complaints about things like these, whether on the forums or in-game.
Most of the grouses I have seen revolve around the game getting harder: how they can no longer afford purples, how X power or Y powerset was nerfed, how this or that change made their farming less lucrative or their drops less frequent, etc. |
Some people think the game is too hard.
This means that the game is probably pretty well balanced.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
I haven't done research, obviously, but my guess is the people who think CoX is hard haven't played many other MMOs. If you look at other games out there you'll see that things we take for granted (not having to face our target to attack) are rarities in the larger MMO-space.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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As a LOTRO vet (Founder), I have no problem with the quest arrows -- and I think the quest text is a vital and fantastic part of the game. The quest arrows in LOTRO are not the same as they are here; they do not lead you to the door of the mission. When you get within a certain radius of the mission objective, they disappear. Basically, they get you to the general area.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
Well on the one hand, quest arrows don't sound like that big of a deal...
On the other hand, anything that further encourages the encroaching illiteracy of Americans is problematic. So... I think I have to side with the LotR vets on that one, albeit not necessarily for the same reasons. |
I've rarely had problems finding quest objectives based on the quest descriptions, but I know others who have. The arrows get them going in the right direction, but unless the quest giver would know specifically where something is (and would naturally have marked your map for you), they only get you to the general area. You still have to find the right place yourself.
If they were to be like CoH/V and point directly to the specific location, I would have a problem with them. But LOTRO is not instanced like CoH; different environment and mission styles can require different mechanics. The mechanics LOTRO introduced is good -- and *optional*. The arrows can be turned off.
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Gotta disagree with you on Quaterhell and Posi, Tony; I don't dislike them because they're "hard" (they're really not), I dislike them because they're really, really boring, and the stupefying length only makes it worse. Seriously, Quaterhell? You do the same mission... what, four times in a row, I think? (been a while since I last ran it). That's kind of silly- it wasn't that great of a mission to start with. And Positron is the first TF most newblets run. It shouldn't be a dull grindfest, it really shouldn't- they'll wind up thinking that all the TFs are like that, and come away with a negative view of the game.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
This isn't all theoretical. One thing that comes to mind is that there have been some people screaming for years to make the Positron task force easier and/or the Dr. Quaterfield task force shorter. Do I think that they're a pain in the butt? Sure. Still, it's kind of groovy knowing that I put in the time and effort, and that I've been rewarded something for it that those who choose not to don't have. There should be some stuff in the game that's a pain in the butt. With no challenge, there's also no fulfillment in accomplishments.
Now, I'm not saying that there is no room for QoL improvements, that everything should be a pain in the butt, or that nothing should ever be made easier. It's just that I don't think it's a good thing to make everything trivially easy and let people make it harder as they want. With these features, there needs to be an honest assessment of how it will affect the game, whether it will make it so easy that people will get bored and stop playing, how much resentment it will cause among those who played the "old" way, whether it's really making the game more fun for most people or just coddling people who don't like to actually play the thing. |
As to dumbing down the game... eh. I actually feel kind of the same way about WoW; it was... not necessarily more difficult, exactly, but it required a greater investment of time and effort when I played it a few years ago. Of course, the fact that it was turning into a second job was part of the reason I quit, so maybe they're on to something with that <.<
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
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*whoosh...* There goes the point, right over your head.|
Originally Posted by Smurch
No, not theoretical. The correct phrase is "reductio ad ridiculum". Maybe a little bit of a Straw Man too.
|
The point, of course, is that "Make it really easy and leave it up to the players to make it as hard as they want" is not a practical MO. No matter how easy you make it, there will always be someone who wants it to be even easier, and it doesn't take long before you start making the game less fun, not more.
For a few months, I thought Doom was a cool game and played it a lot. Then someone told me about the cheat codes. For another few days, I thought it was a really cool game. Then I never played it again. Sure, I could have played it exactly like I always had before, but why bother? I had seen the whole game already, and it seemed pointless.
This game is a little different in that "winning" isn't really the ultimate goal. Still, it does need that hook to get people interested and hold them long enough to transition to where the real fun is. Without it, we all might as well be playing Second Life.
So if you think it's a strawman, then answering my original question shouldn't be too terribly difficult for you. Are you willing to accept the premise that there is such a thing as making the game too easy?
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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No, I got the point entirely. I think your premise is flawed. I don't think anyone was advocating "make a god mode for the game and let players choose to turn it on or not", which is exactly what you're implying. And that implication is reductio ad ridiculum. What people ARE saying is if you find QoL features in the game, like jetpacks (which was in fact the example cited), to make the game "too easy" for you (compared to what, I wonder) then don't use one.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
*whoosh...* There goes the point, right over your head.
The point, of course, is that "Make it really easy and leave it up to the players to make it as hard as they want" is not a practical MO. No matter how easy you make it, there will always be someone who wants it to be even easier, and it doesn't take long before you start making the game less fun, not more. |
I use jetpacks as soon as I can get one, and it doesn't make any of my missions "easier".
And second, allowing players to make the game as hard as they want is not only something that players want, it's something we DEMANDED, and we're finally getting in I-16 with the difficulty sliders.
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| So if you think it's a strawman, then answering my original question shouldn't be too terribly difficult for you. Are you willing to accept the premise that there is such a thing as making the game too easy? |
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I love how even the most silly threads can easily get into SRS BZNS around here. 
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The internet is serious. The great issues of our day are decided here. |
Originally Posted by PhiloticKnight
I love how even the most silly threads can easily get into SRS BZNS around here.
|
Speaking of serious business, we have to talk about all these "I like pie" tags. Pie is the devil! Pie spreads all these "the cake is a lie" rumors. PIE is the lie, people! I don't think it's right that my beliefs are being oppressed by a small minority of pie worshipers spreading their filth throughout every thread of the forum!
Pie needs to be filtered as a dirty word. All those tags should "i like ***"! Better yet, anyone who types "pie" anywhere in the forum should be banned for life (except when typing it as an example of what not to say).
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
I always preferred pudding myself.
Or Dairy Queen Blizzards™.
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Real winners flaunt their ability to quote words they heard in debate class. It makes them cool and boosts their credibility.
| Smurch |
Penny Arcade's latest post shows that there might actually be one or two eerie similarities between our beloved game and the 400 pound gorilla in the room...
