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QFT! And you'd possibly enjoy Runes of Magic, where the options seem limitless and totally free!
Originally Posted by CaptainQC
The more options the more fun. That's why I try to play the jack of all trades in all games I play but they are always the hardest to balance.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Checked the website looks like fun. I might try it 
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That's a fallacious argument. Take away a storm defender's damage dealing and what have you got? Three powers (Five if you count some epics, and the secondary is taken away completely if you remove offensive powers). Does that mean all Storm Defenders should be played as offensive damage dealers? Hardly.|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
And yet if you exclude tanking and damage dealing, what role can a Kheldian truely fill on a team? None. They simply are not designed to as they do not have enough of the powers used to do the roles your talking about. This is not in my opinion a developer oversight but a planned level of performance.
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If you look at the modifiers you get a truer story (Iakona's guide can be found here.):
Code:
Mod Blaster Contrlr Defendr Scrappr Tanker Khldian MELEE Damage 1 0.55 0.55 1.13 0.8 0.75 KheldSS --- --- --- --- --- 0.85 (Dwarf Form) Heal 0.9 1.1 1.25 0.9 0.9 0.9 0.9 HealSlf 1.13 0.95 0.95 1.25 1.75 1 Stun 0.8 1.25 1 0.8 0.8 0.9 0.8 Immobil 0.8 1.25 1 0.8 0.8 0.9 Sleep 0.8 1.25 1 0.8 0.8 0.9 0.8 Knockbk 1 1 1 1 1.25 1 Fear 0.8 1.25 1 1 1 0.9 1 ResBool 0.8 0.8 0.8 1 1.25 0.9 RANGED Damage 1 0.55 0.65 0.5 0.5 0.63 KheldSS --- --- --- --- --- 1.2 (Nova Form) Heal 0.9 1.1 1.25 0.9 0.9 0.9 0.9 HealSlf 1.13 0.95 0.95 1.25 1.75 1 Stun 0.8 1.25 1 0.8 0.8 0.9 0.8 Immobil 0.8 1.25 1 0.8 0.8 0.9 Sleep 0.8 1.25 1 8 0.8 0.9 0.8 Knockbk 0.8 1 1 1 1.25 0.9 Fear 0.8 1.25 1 1 1 0.9 1 ResBool 0.7 1 1.25 0.7 0.7 0.9
Now according to this, Kheldians - at the time they were designed - were third up from the bottom in the damage department unless they were shape-shifted. Dwarf put you just below scrappers and blasters, and Nova put you above even blasters where the modifier is concerned.
The support numbers put khelds third from the top, right below defenders and controllers. This meant that even though Incandescent Strike did whoploads of damage, it also held more effectively than three of the other five archetypes could, provided they had a similar power.
My point with this is that Kheldians as they were originally designed were meant to be roughly third-best at anything they did, including damage. They weren't meant to be the best buffers, controllers or damage dealers. They were meant to be the best at adapting to fill any one of those roles, just like Geko said.
Of course, you've already called into question the proper defenition of adapting, but I suppose you could also question what the definition of what the word "is" is. (that's a reference to Bill Clinton's impeachment, for anyone not familiar with the defenition of "is")
Now the point needs to be made that - after it was demonstrated that Kheldians were underperforming and confirmed with datamining - Castle decided that the easiest way to bring our performance up to par was to increase our damage modifiers. (to .85 human melee, 1.0 dwarf melee, and .8 human ranged - nova didn't change)
At no time did Castle state that he was changing a Kheldian's primary role or design philosophy, and unless he or another developer comes out and states that they intend for Kheldians to be primarily damage dealers any assertions for that notion are just speculation.
Kheldians have gotten considerably better at dealing damage, it's true and no one will argue. We're currently below scrappers and blasters, modifier-wise. But the counter-point to that is that we're also currently below only controllers and defenders (again, when comparing modifiers).
So while you may well be able to build your kheldian for damage, the potential is there for buffs and controls. Lord Xenite made suggestions that would capitalize on those designed strengths because while it's generally accepted that there is a disparity between PB and WS performance (especially in late game), it's not bloody likely that any change will come in the form of moar damage. In fact, he could probably use the same disparity you pointed out between attacks and support
powers to indicate that changes along the lines of what he suggested are needed to balance out the increased damage because the increase in damage isn't closing the gap.
You currently maintain that they don't need anything, right? That is a much better argument than the one you've been making with regard to their role. Your stance that a Kheldian's primary role is damage is flat-out wrong. I've given concrete evidence that their design intent wasn't damage before all else, and now I've given numbers to that same effect.
Not that any of the evidence I've brought to the discussion supports a primary buffer/support role, either.
As I said above, Kheldians were designed - and are the best at - filling whatever role needs filled for a team, whether it's support, damage or control. They do it all, but they are not the best at any one of those aspects and never will be. Furthermore, none of those aspects so heavily outweighs the others that it can be considered "primary."
You can state quite correctly that the majority of a Peacebringer's powers are damage dealing attacks, but that's a broad assertion that can be made about any archetype in the game. Hell, I can state that the game is all about damage and be right on the most basic level.
But if you power through mobs on your WS faster than you could on your scrapper or your blaster, it's not because you did more damage. It's because the secondary effects of your damage-dealing powers were modified more effectively by your scalar to create the circumstances to let you better leverage the damage that you did do. In other words. Controls, buffs and damage all worked together with more or less equal force - and that's something other archetypes can't boast.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Smiling_Joe that is just the kind of post I like! Lots of nice numbers
I think the point that Kheldians were designed to be able to perform a number of roles and be 3rd best at everything did and probably still does hold true looking at those numbers, but looking at the powers each Kheldian has been given I don't necessarily think we were meant to fill 'every' role.
Tanking
Healing
Team Buffs/Shield
Debuffs
Control
Damage
Stealth (Kind of)
I think those are the only real roles in the game and Kheldians can do damage, tanking, stealth and control and I think that is where our intended strengths are. Both Kheldians do various debuffs, but as a side effect of our damage rather than in a specific way like defenders or controllers.
PB's get a heal, but that really feels like it was just stuck on rather than a designed extra role, and this is where I feel the numbers fail on this occasion.
I would happily see PB's get some extra debuffs added to the attacks, happily see some extra control added in there, but I wouldn't like to see them given another role altogether.
I say this not only from a design/theory point of view, but from a usefullness point of view too, adding an extra heal wouldn't improve anything unless that heal actually made us the 'good' healers*, but at that point it would be expected and I would hate that.
* I know Glowing Touch does work ok when slotted well enough, but throw in a useful aura heal and the whole reason PB's get team invites changes.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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And why exactly would a PB get a team-invite? If a team needs a damage dealer, there's no reason to prefer a PB over anything else that does damage. If a team needs damage mitigation in the form of crowd control or tanking, there's no reason to prefer a Kheldian over a Tank or a Controller.
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I know Glowing Touch does work ok when slotted well enough, but throw in a useful aura heal and the whole reason PB's get team invites changes.
The only valid reason, in my opinion, to invite a Kheldian to a team is because hopefully that Kheldian is an experienced player who can adapt to whatever the team is fighting and sometimes that actually does call for using powers like Glowing Touch and even the dreaded pool powers, like it or not.
I again say, if PB's got an AoE heal component in their Reform Essence, like I suggested, and PB's were then letting themselves be regarded as "h34l0rz", that would be the fault of the individual PB player, not the AT and certainly not the one power that got changed!
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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PBs don't get stealth and get a lot less of control element than WS. I think thats why the request is made to make the heals on the PB more useful. WS were always considered more controllerish and PB more defenderish... |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I think those are the only real roles in the game and Kheldians can do damage, tanking, stealth and control and I think that is where our intended strengths are. Both Kheldians do various debuffs, but as a side effect of our damage rather than in a specific way like defenders or controllers. PB's get a heal, but that really feels like it was just stuck on rather than a designed extra role, and this is where I feel the numbers fail on this occasion. |
I really think that boosting these aspect wouldn't be out of line.
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But a TriFormPB can easily take Superspeed+Stealth from power pools and have fun with that.
Originally Posted by CaptainQC
PBs don't get stealth
Very true, but if you pay attention, right after using Pulsar and shifting to Dwarf, using the single-target Dwarf attacks sometimes disorients enemies who are still effected by Pulsar. That's definitely nothing to compare to what Warshades can do, but every little bit helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQC
...[PB's] get a lot less of control element than WS.
The suggestion because it's just a suggestion really was made after 50 levels of Peacebringer gameplay, in normal teams, Kheldian-only teams and solo. Based on my experience, the one thing I felt missing from my arsenal of tricks was being able to stop a bunch of teammates from being defeated. I sure would love more disorient, especially in Photon Seekers. I would love to be able to do lots of other things, but lets face it, Kheldians can already blast, scrap and tank quite well, sometimes so much so it actually annoys other players on their more role-dedicated characters, so I didn't want to step on any toes, yet again.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQC
I think thats why the request is made to make the heals on the PB more useful.
Well, now with Radiation Blasts the offense power-set that I think PB's most closely inherit being added to Blasters in I16, we may have a bigger problem now with people insisting that Glowing Touch is the odd power and it should actually be removed from the power-set entirely so that moar damage can be added Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainQC
WS were always considered more controllerish and PB more defenderish.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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This is the crux of the problem. We keep slipping into what "Khelds" do best and why "Khelds" get invited to teams when what we should be talking about is Peacebringers.|
Originally Posted by CaptainQC
PBs don't get stealth and get a lot less of control element than WS. I think thats why the request is made to make the heals on the PB more useful. WS were always considered more controllerish and PB more defenderish...
I really think that boosting these aspect wouldn't be out of line. |
Warshades are fine. Kheldians as an archetype are fine. A warshade has better control/buff/mez ability that can be used to create absolutely pristine conditions for dealing damage. Peacebringers are behind in that area.
I don't completely agree with some of the specifics of Lord Xenite's suggestions. I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of his suggestions. I think it's an overreaction to state that one healing aura will change the reason Peacebringers are invited to teams. After all - the healing modifier on Kheldians (not the self heal) is down there with scraps and tanks, and while I don't see glowing touch going anywhere in favor of a stationary pet, I see nothing theme-breaking about it. (still want the buff to apply to the caster, LX - wink, wink)
I can agree with Princess Darkstar's list of roles a Peacebringer can fill (with the exception of stealth, which is strictly a WS thing), and I think debuffing especially is where the peacebringer falls behind. -Def is great against hard-to-hit targets, but how often does that happen in the game? The vast majority of pve mobs are pathetically easy to hit, and so the effects of -def aren't noticed.
And personally it's added debuffing where I would pin my hopes. I'd trade just about anything for -def. I'd even take -end if Pulsar got a short circuit treatment. No, come to think of it, I wouldn't. But almost anything else.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Quote:
So very true.
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
This is the crux of the problem. We keep slipping into what "Khelds" do best and why "Khelds" get invited to teams when what we should be talking about is Peacebringers.
Again, very true, but where some would want to skew PB's more into the moar damage category, I for one would like to improve the PB's damage as well as its teaming abilities by adding the -Res debuff to every PB attack, over simply adding moar damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Warshades are fine. Kheldians as an archetype are fine. A warshade has better control/buff/mez ability that can be used to create absolutely pristine conditions for dealing damage. Peacebringers are behind in that area.
It's clear in my mind that any teammate that would ask a PB to "rock the aura" instead of doing their share of damage/tanking, would be snorted at, at least I know that's what I'd do... Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I think it's an overreaction to state that one healing aura will change the reason Peacebringers are invited to teams. After all - the healing modifier on Kheldians (not the self heal) is down there with scraps and tanks, and while I don't see glowing touch going anywhere in favor of a stationary pet, I see nothing theme-breaking about it.
LOL! Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
(still want the buff to apply to the caster, LX - wink, wink)
The -Def is what allows me to slot my powers without too much worry about accuracy in the lower levels. The standard +Acc;+End;+Recharge;+Dmg(*3) formula works great, in my opinion because of the +Def. However, think about those enemies that don't get defeated during your alpha-strike. The +Def on them means the team gets to hit them easily, and while this seems unimportant end-game, lower/mid game stages prove PB's are quite effective in buffing their team by debuffing the enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I can agree with Princess Darkstar's list of roles a Peacebringer can fill (with the exception of stealth, which is strictly a WS thing), and I think debuffing especially is where the peacebringer falls behind. -Def is great against hard-to-hit targets, but how often does that happen in the game? The vast majority of pve mobs are pathetically easy to hit, and so the effects of -def aren't noticed.
The moment I entered an AE all Boss mission with a bunch of lowbie characters all 7 of them, below Lv20 and started tanking/attacking the Bosses, those purple shields around the Bosses (the sign something has lowered defenses) were more easily hit by the team... and I knew exactly how helpful -Def was. 
Indeed I would like added debuffing, active debuffing at that, for my PB. However, never give something up before you know someone's already willing to give you something for it! Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
And personally it's added debuffing where I would pin my hopes. I'd trade just about anything for -def. I'd even take -end if Pulsar got a short circuit treatment. No, come to think of it, I wouldn't. But almost anything else.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Please excuse this necro-posting as I do not want to create yet-another thread, and this post is about a possible Peacebringer modification, so without further ado.. how about if Build Up recharge time was decreased and Build Up itself were usable in both Dwarf/Nova forms, would that help PB's decrease the gap between them and WS's?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
You mean "moar damage"?
Carefull, this can get you burned at the stake by some people...oh wait, you have your own torch.
carry on...
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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Yeah... sorta, I guess...
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
You mean "moar damage"?
Well, if you remember my OP with the suggestion that each PB attack would inflict a self-stacking -Res effect, having Build Up more often and allowing it in the forms is essentially accomplishing the "moar damage" directive. Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Careful, this can get you burned at the stake by some people...oh wait, you have your own torch.
So... I've been burning myself since the OP it turns out.
Will do! Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
carry on...
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Now that I got my "neener neener" out of the way i'm seriously really wondering what your trying to advocate for now.
Your initial request was something to make it more team friendly and now i'm not sure what your looking for in changes. Seriously.
P.S. From the Heats are fail thread, not all people who look for performance find Kheldians lacking.
There is a definante middle ground between the performance nazi's you think are ruining the game and people who just like to build something they enjoy in the most effective manner and i think you often miss that fact.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
Flipping the Kheld Inherents so that you give an AT the bonus they normally give you (along with a slight increase in damage/resist scalars to compensete what Khelds are losing) would solve *ALL* problems
PB's New Cosmic Balance results:
Scrappers/Blasters: Hey, this PB is giving me 10% resistance to all damage. Cool!
Tanks/'Fenders: That PB will give us a 20% damage boost! Invite them now!
'Trollers: My Holds just went up a Mag. Nice
(note: an AT only gets the bonus it would normally give a Kheld, not the entire bonus a Kheld currently gets)
The question is how much of a Scalar increase should Khelds get to make up for the teaming bonuses they'd be losing. Making Human Damage Scalars 1.0 across the board (middle of the road) and resistance increase of 10%-15% sound fair. The Forms would adjust by the same ratio.
Now here we go. If Controllers no longer grant a Human Kheld Mez Protection, should the Human form get a small boost to compensate? Say Mag 2.0? Oh no... would that tiny increase invalidate Dwarf? haha Seriously, how many of you PB's with Dwarf Form would utterly drop it if Human had 2.0 Mez Protection?
Regardless, this would work. Teams would really enjoy having Khelds join them, I believe, *and* Khelds would certainly have an easier time soloing
I think tweeks to the existing powers are far more likely at this stage than completely changing what a power is.
Ex. Remember the hullaballu over changes to the epic power pools where they were going to drop some underused powers and replace them? Due to complaints from people who actually took those underused powers and liked them, all those pools now have five powers in them instead.
The bottom line is that no one complains if you're adding more utility onto a power (increased damage modifiers, cosmic balance usable in forms, dwarf usable while mezzed), but they'll scream bloody murder if you want to get rid of or change what it does.
So when looking at buffing the PB, suggestions that add without replacing what's already there is what's mostly likely to get implemented with minimal complaints from the base.
As mentioned, I don't think I've heard anyone here complain about the idea of -resist being added to the PB's attacks. Alternately a -tohit (your attacks have dazzled your foe making it harder for them to aim) would improve the survivability of a PB and their team (possibly more than an AoE heal would... you don't have to heal if your foes aren't hitting in the first place) without the need to take it's focus away from dealing damage or radically change how the PB's powers work.
Similarly, enabling some of the other PB powers such as build-up and conserve energy to be clickable while in the forms would add to their utility without taking anything away from what people who use them now have. No one who likes the powers as they are now would have any reason to complain. Minor buff on paper since click-buffs carry over to forms anyway, but a major QoL improvement to the players for whom dropping forms to buff was a major annoyance.
Similarly, I'd like to see group energy flight improved with some minor tweeks. First, change the -tohit to suppression like every other movement power. Second, an increase to the flight speed of those within the aura so that they are slightly fast than the person generating the aura. Third (and to my mind, the most important), a visible bubble showing the outer edge of the aura. This frees the person with the power from having to worry about outrunning the group and gives everyone a clear marker of where the flight field begins and ends (for both those who want it and those who'd rather stay out of it).
While I'm personally happy with my PB as is (that billion+ inf in IO sets colors my viewpower a lot though), I'd have no reason to object to any of the above suggestions (-resist or -tohit added to the attacks, click-buffs usable while in forms, and tweeks to group energy flight) and they'd probably do a lot to close the gap between PB's and WS's without having to completely re-invent the wheel.
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The teams I join already enjoy having Kheldians on the team and soloing is already trivialy easy even on higher settings and set for 4+ players (or +2 set to 2 for my SO only build).|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Regardless, this would work. Teams would really enjoy having Khelds join them, I believe, *and* Khelds would certainly have an easier time soloing
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My only objection to this line of thinking is it proceeds from a point of view that Kheldians need to be fixed. PB's could use a small boost (very very small) but Kheldians are in no way broken or in need of fixing.
If the Kheldian AT's do not appeal to you the simple solution is don't play them, not redesign the AT so it fits your playstyle preferance. I know this because it's exactly what I do with the VEAT AT's.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
Change: I think Build-Up should be changed to be on a similar timer to Sunless Mire (120sec recharge, 30sec buff).
Reason: Damage is an often complained about fact and this would increase the damage for longer periods (Actually perma-able). It would also be better use for PB's in Nova form. To account for the increased duration I would lower the buffs to match say a 4 target Sunless Mire which accounts for how much easier to use it is and that is it more reliable.
Change: I would add the -def (Or was it -res, whichever it needs to be so they have both) into all the attacks.
Reason: This would increase the teams effectiveness making them more desirable.
Change: I would change the PBAoE KB to KD.
Reason: KB is good control so should be kept in the single target and cone powers, but PBAoE KB is a no-no.
Change: I would make the inherant buff both the Kheld and the team, for a Warshade a tank should give them +resist and the kheld gives them back +dam (etc).
Reason: I don't think this is needed from a balance point of view, but if we are to change the perception of Khelds then this is a must imho. This solution also means the Kheld modifiers don't have to be changed (I can't begin to imagine how powerful a solo Warshade would be with increased modifiers!).
Change: I think Photon Seekers should be on the same timers as Dark Extraction.
Reason: Make them more reliable and bring closer parity.
I think then PB's would probably be a bit closer to Warshades.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I'd eat all these suggestion up (in the good way) |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Change: I think Build-Up should be changed to be on a similar timer to Sunless Mire (120sec recharge, 30sec buff).
Reason: Damage is an often complained about fact and this would increase the damage for longer periods (Actually perma-able). It would also be better use for PB's in Nova form. To account for the increased duration I would lower the buffs to match say a 4 target Sunless Mire which accounts for how much easier to use it is and that is it more reliable. Change: I would add the -def (Or was it -res, whichever it needs to be so they have both) into all the attacks. Reason: This would increase the teams effectiveness making them more desirable. Change: I would change the PBAoE KB to KD. Reason: KB is good control so should be kept in the single target and cone powers, but PBAoE KB is a no-no. Change: I would make the inherant buff both the Kheld and the team, for a Warshade a tank should give them +resist and the kheld gives them back +dam (etc). Reason: I don't think this is needed from a balance point of view, but if we are to change the perception of Khelds then this is a must imho. This solution also means the Kheld modifiers don't have to be changed (I can't begin to imagine how powerful a solo Warshade would be with increased modifiers!). Change: I think Photon Seekers should be on the same timers as Dark Extraction. Reason: Make them more reliable and bring closer parity. I think then PB's would probably be a bit closer to Warshades. |
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Just because someone would welcome a change or two doesn't meant they find the whole unappealing. My Main is a PB, now Purpled and Accoladed out, so I find her quite appealing.|
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
The teams I join already enjoy having Kheldians on the team and soloing is already trivialy easy even on higher settings and set for 4+ players (or +2 set to 2 for my SO only build).
My only objection to this line of thinking is it proceeds from a point of view that Kheldians need to be fixed. PB's could use a small boost (very very small) but Kheldians are in no way broken or in need of fixing. If the Kheldian AT's do not appeal to you the simple solution is don't play them, not redesign the AT so it fits your playstyle preferance. I know this because it's exactly what I do with the VEAT AT's. |
There are things that could be done to make the AT better though. *Lots* of People have complained about certain Kheld Characteristics over the years. So it came to be that some much needed changes were eventually implemented.
And yet, there were a few players who were completely satisfied with Khelds prior to these changes and didn't want them/think them needed. Per your reasoning, Khelds should have been left unchanged because some players were okay with them (even though many were not). I suppose all the others should have just played other ATs eh?
IMO, the changes have been by far to the better, and I happen to think a few more should be implemented. And I'm not gonna just shrug and play a different AT because I think that... *shrug*
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I think there are some people who want tweaks to Kheldians, and nobody is worried about that, and some people who want massive overhauls. Those wanting the wholesale changes have got some of us very defensive about anything negative, which I think is the reason some people are wary of anyone who wants any change.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Just because someone would welcome a change or two doesn't meant they find the whole unappealing. My Main is a PB, now Purpled and Accoladed out, so I find her quite appealing.
There are things that could be done to make the AT better though. *Lots* of People have complained about certain Kheld Characteristics over the years. So it came to be that some much needed changes were eventually implemented. And yet, there were a few players who were completely satisfied with Khelds prior to these changes and didn't want them/think them needed. Per your reasoning, Khelds should have been left unchanged because some players were okay with them (even though many were not). I suppose all the others should have just played other ATs eh? IMO, the changes have been by far to the better, and I happen to think a few more should be implemented. And I'm not gonna just shrug and play a different AT because I think that... *shrug* |
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Understandable. To add fuel to that, I'd personally welcome massive overhauls to the Shapeshifting mechanics. I don't like them, and don't routinely play Tri-forms as a result. However, I'm aware that many really like the current shapeshifting, and I'm willing to let them keep what they like...as long as Human Only remains viable |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I think there are some people who want tweaks to Kheldians, and nobody is worried about that, and some people who want massive overhauls. Those wanting the wholesale changes have got some of us very defensive about anything negative, which I think is the reason some people are wary of anyone who wants any change.
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Other areas that I want changed really mostly involve some shifting of Numbers, without really changing the way the base AT plays.
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Initially I embraced the idea that a TriFormShade can buff themselves with two Mires and Eclipse and blast things with Nova, and I felt it was balanced by Peacebringers not having to rely on defeated enemies to rez/heal/buff themselves.
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Now that I got my "neener neener" out of the way i'm seriously really wondering what your trying to advocate for now.
Your initial request was something to make it more team friendly and now i'm not sure what your looking for in changes. Seriously.
From all the discussions I took part in lately, I realized that even if PB's may seem more Tanker-ish (at least to me they do), there are still some internal imbalances between PB/WS powers, and since a Black Dwarf can boost its ToHit/Damage while inflicting damage, it would help White Dwarf become more appealing if alongside the mitigation White Dwarf Flare provides, the White Dwarf could also boost itself without having to drop to Human form, and hopefully at a rate similar to what a Black Dwarf can do.
It's even easier to see how Dark Nova has an unfair advantage because the Warshade can boost not only their Nova's ToHit/Damage but also its ability to resist damage; an effect that Bright Nova cannot duplicate. Hence, I chose to add to my original suggestion at least on top of the -Res addition to every attack part of it improvements to Build Up to allow Bright Nova and White Dwarf to be able to use it and also decrease its recharge time.
In-game, I haven't really met a lot of people who claim Kheldians are fail, and any of those people who have told me in-game that they are disappointed with Kheldians based on their performance have obtained some food for thought from teaming with me on my Kheldians, so much so that some are giving Kheldians another go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
P.S. From the Heats are fail thread, not all people who look for performance find Kheldians lacking.
There is a definite middle ground between the performance nazi's you think are ruining the game and people who just like to build something they enjoy in the most effective manner and i think you often miss that fact.
Do not worry, I know performance enthusiasts are not ruining the game, and I'm married to a person who just likes to build something she enjoys. I can't ever miss the fact that there's a middle ground. It's just that more often than not, it's too difficult to notice the middle-ground camp because those in the other camps are simply much more vocal... after all, they're enthusiastic.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Sorry for the butchered quote but I think this is quite important and I have just realised it recently.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
Initially I embraced the idea that a TriFormShade can buff themselves with two Mires and Eclipse and blast things with Nova, and I felt it was balanced by Peacebringers not having to rely on defeated enemies to rez/heal/buff themselves.
... since a Black Dwarf can boost its ToHit/Damage while inflicting damage, it would help White Dwarf become more appealing ... It's even easier to see how Dark Nova has an unfair advantage because the Warshade can boost not only their Nova's ToHit/Damage but also its ability to resist damage |
If Nova and Dwarf forms were themselves very powerful then a lot more PB's would be taking them, yet PB's tend to end up mostly as human form. The reason Warshades work so well as tri-form is because the important human powers actually augment the forms, and I think that part is missing from PB's.
I like the idea of Warshades needing mobs and PB's being self sufficient, but the powers should have been more closely alligned so both PB and WS got powers that did the same but in different ways (IE: Build Up and Sunless Mire should always have been on the same timers, with Build Up being toned down to average out Sunless Mires performance).
That way Bright Nova would have just been the same as Dark Nova but averaged out without the highs and lows.
I think White Dwarf is balanced well enough though, I know Dark Dwarf can do some awesome damage, but White Dwarf Sublimation is one hell of a heal so you get the added longevity (I know the Dark Dwarf heal works out better over time but you spend so long casting it you lose out on an awful lot of damage doing so, and it is a massive end hog).
The biggest difference is Light Form v Eclipse, I think Light Form needs to be altered to allow shifting to other forms, and since I am not sure on the numbers it might need a nerf to compensate (And remove the crash).
Overall I think PB's and WS's should be more closely alligned, with PB's being 35-40% of a Warshades total power but constantly, with Warshades being allowed the higher peaks due to the inherant danger in casting their powers. The other differences would be that Warshades have controls as mitigation but PB's have the heals.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Which is exactly what my suggestion attempts to accomplish, however with the added value of allowing the PB to AoE-heal.
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Overall I think PB's and WS's should be more closely alligned, with PB's being 35-40% of a Warshades total power but constantly, with Warshades being allowed the higher peaks due to the inherant danger in casting their powers. The other differences would be that Warshades have controls as mitigation but PB's have the heals.
I'm willing to give up on AoE-heals and other team-based powers though in favor of the -Res (and -ToHit debuffs) attached to every attack power, and the decrease in Build Up's recharge coupled with enabling it in the Nova/Dwarf PB forms. That would be just... awesome.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Well at some point it fun to try something else without having to level from 1 to 50 again. The more options the more fun. Thats why I try to play the jack of all trades in all games I play but they are always the hardest to balance.