Annoyingly you argue your case rather well (Like a lot of others here, and I can't quite get my head around liking you and telling you that you are wrong at the same time) so I do see where you are coming from, I just think that any AoE heal you get probably won't be enough to save anyone life if it is seriously under threat so trying to use that kind of power would mean wasting the potential to use something else.
I know I am mainly a Warshade player but if I was going to give PB's a buff I would be looking towards buffing the powers that a lot of PB's are already taking rather than changing the other powers (The -def and -res idea is a good one, as is the stun addition to Photon Seekers), but I guess that is just a point of view thing, I just don't want to see PB's stopping their damage causing to keep teammates alive, the inherant is a self buff given from nearby teammates, but I don't remember a requirement for them to be alive to buff you, so I think Kheldians should benefit from having a team, but like Warshades, PB's should give back to the team via an increased kill speed, not defender like support.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Epic means different things to different people.
Originally Posted by OmniSurge
I find it odd that pple would choose to roll a PB... a AT that is not meant to be all supportive of a team.. if nothing else it could be considered to be more of a leech. Since it does boost itself based on what other ATs are on the team. Now I love playing my 47 PB.... I don't think a defense based PB would be a good idea. PBs are meant to be "A Jack of all Trades" u want a AoE heal? Go roll a def, or make sure there is one one ur team. If anything should be tweaked.. I think PBs and WSs should deal even MORE damage than what they do now. In the comics the PB was shown as a POWERFUL being.. moreso than the human heroes.. but in the game... its not like that. I should be. A epic AT should be just that... EPIC... the most powerful of all the ATs. U want a healer.. make a damn def. PBs are meant to KICK ***.. NOT bandage ***.
If PB's are meant to be Jack(s) of All Trades, then you should never focus them on one topic, DPS. You should strive to balance their capacity in everything they do. Currently, I feel that the damage they create is superior to their capacity to protect the team, therefore I suggested improvements that would allow a PB to do exactly that.
Telling someone to go roll something else, especially when you're discussing a Jack of All Trade AT, doesn't seem very valid to me.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I knew it! I knew it! You've never even listened in all our discussions about the Medicine Pool!
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
And I contend the second you start using Kheldian in the same sentence as support people begin slotting up that medicine pool. Taking slots away from what the natural bent of the AT IS, damage dealing.
The idea was never to actually use slots on the Med Pools, but to take them as filler powers which require no slotting to serve a two-fold purpose: a) let you select a power; b) allow you to augment your team if the situation allows and calls for it.
If this were an EverQuest type game where roles are rigidly enforced and required, I may see some validity in your point. CoX being a casual-friendly game and having more than 90% of the content easy-going as far as roles are concerned, I truly do not understand what's the deal with damage-envy. The fact that each power contributes to damage-dealing allows us to grow our characters in other direction because we know that every power we'll use will already do its part in defeating the enemies we fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
Nearly each and every power in both Kheldian set either produces damage, improves damage, allows us to personaly survive longer (to do more damage), or stun/hold/imobalize an enemy so we can do more damage, THIS is our role like it or not.
If we were discussing an AT that was not meant to be a Jack of All Trades, I'd see your point, but we are discussing a Jack of All Trades and all you seem to want to focus it on, is DPS.
Again, if we were talking about any AT other than something meant to be a Jack of All Trades, I'd agree with you.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
As much as you all contend I'm a warmonger with my DPS beliefs, your desire to turn Kheldians into some sort of weird defendery support AT is just as well documented.
Leave the support roles to the Controllers and Defenders please.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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We're going to get along famously, you and I! And don't worry about telling me I'm wrong. I'm wrong alot.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Annoyingly you argue your case rather well (Like a lot of others here, and I can't quite get my head around liking you and telling you that you are wrong at the same time) so I do see where you are coming from, I just think that any AoE heal you get probably won't be enough to save anyone life if it is seriously under threat so trying to use that kind of power would mean wasting the potential to use something else.
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You're making a good point about this suggestion, taken in context with your other posts. If you can heal others as much as you can heal yourself with Reform Essence, does that overpower it? And if so, what could/should be scaled back? As you say, the amount that it heals others could be scaled back, but then what's the point of having it to begin with? Otherwise, the recharge could be lengthened, but that would reduce its effectiveness as a self heal, and we don't want that.
It's a valid discussion that's worth having, IMHO. And for my part, I don't see how an occasional heal that would heal others as much as yourself is overpowered for a peacebringer, but let's just assume for the sake of argument that it is. There's one thing not discussed in the discussion that probably needs to be addressed: the radius. Healing Aura is such a spammable heal because it has a large radius. What if the radius of Lord Xenite's suggested change to Reform Essence were half that of Healing Aura? On the other extreme, what if it were just outside melee range, so that only those in melee with you at the time benefitted from it?
LX feel free to jump in on that one - I don't mean to hijack your suggestion, there.
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| I know I am mainly a Warshade player but if I was going to give PB's a buff I would be looking towards buffing the powers that a lot of PB's are already taking rather than changing the other powers (The -def and -res idea is a good one, as is the stun addition to Photon Seekers), but I guess that is just a point of view thing, I just don't want to see PB's stopping their damage causing to keep teammates alive, the inherant is a self buff given from nearby teammates, but I don't remember a requirement for them to be alive to buff you, so I think Kheldians should benefit from having a team, but like Warshades, PB's should give back to the team via an increased kill speed, not defender like support. |
I agree about khelds not stopping their damage-dealing to heal teammates - teammates buff us passively, and so really I prefer any heals/buffs I do to be incidental. With these suggestions, if I heal a teammate at all, it's because I healed myself too. On any team, no one is going to expect me to drop out of dwarf form and be a healer with one heal that comes every minute or so. No one expects rad controllers to be healers first.
But another point I'll address is why I would support these changes. I personally have no problem with my Peacebringer as a damage dealer. He doesn't do stellar damage, but that's okay with me. I can survive any fight I'm in, barring a surprise damage spike or two (or me doing something stupid) and have enough strategy and skill to prevail eventually. But OmniSurge - even though I didn't care for the tone of his post at all, said one thing that ought to stick with all of us:
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| I find it odd that pple would choose to roll a PB... a AT that is not meant to be all supportive of a team.. if nothing else it could be considered to be more of a leech. |
The point that I'm making - and the one it seems LX is addressing - is that allowing Peacebringers to give back to the team directly will help dispel the leech reputation and make more powers worthy of consideration.
Especially if that stationary pet suggestion gets to affect the peacebringer too (hint hint LX)
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I don't necessarily think it is an issue of overpowered or not, it is just that I feel the heal would either be worthless, or people would come to expect it, and I know I would hate to be invited to a team for my healing (And you probably know the new AE crowd love looking for healz0rz).|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
It's a valid discussion that's worth having, IMHO. And for my part, I don't see how an occasional heal that would heal others as much as yourself is overpowered for a peacebringer, but let's just assume for the sake of argument that it is. There's one thing not discussed in the discussion that probably needs to be addressed: the radius. Healing Aura is such a spammable heal because it has a large radius. What if the radius of Lord Xenite's suggested change to Reform Essence were half that of Healing Aura? On the other extreme, what if it were just outside melee range, so that only those in melee with you at the time benefitted from it?
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
The problem with that logic is that it still leaves useless powers in the set. Kheldians were meant to be versatile, so much so that the range of powers discourages cookie-cutter builds. If we buff only the powers that khelds already take, then won't that lead to more cookie-cutter builds? Must we all play Plasma's gold-standard triform build? Not disparaging Plasma at all, here, but I for one would like to team with other Peacebringers (and Warshades when I'm on that one) and not feel like a carbon copy of my teammate.
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And I definately think PB's need 'something' but I would definately prefer to stay clear of distinct buffs that affect others in the team, a PB should defend the team with direct actions against the enemy.
The reason I would buff the more popular powers is because I don't think powers like Glowing Touch are necessarily in keeping with the AT, I think some PB powers were dropped in to make them different to a Warshade without necessarily thinking it all the way through. But it is too late to replace them, and buffs to those powers would imho change to AT too much.
Again it comes down to that I don't play a PB much, so I am not in the best position to say what buffs would help, I just don't see them as buffers or debuffers, it is all about direct action.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
That is how we're seen, more often than not. People don't just as weak buffers or weak damage dealers, they've traditionally seen us as experience leeches. This is partially because of the nature of our inherent, and partially because kheldians are hard to learn, and there have been more than a few players - myself included - who would give khelds a bad name when they were first learning even though they mastered them later. Add the irrational fear of cysts to the mix and there you go. Warshades don't have so much of a problem in later levels because the bodies tend to hit the floor wherever they tread. Peacebringers are more single-target oriented, minus two foot-stomps and a trivial stun, and so suffer more from the leech stigma.
The point that I'm making - and the one it seems LX is addressing - is that allowing Peacebringers to give back to the team directly will help dispel the leech reputation and make more powers worthy of consideration. |
Having said that I think KB to KD and adding the -res (Or was it -def, whichever they don't already have) into the attacks would probably be a massive help just to start with.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Sorry if I came across as a trolling *****... wasn't meaning to be. The point I was making was basically.. PBs are not meant to be healers and to add any kind of outward heals would not only take away from the PB experience (in my opinion). PBs already have 1 outward single target heal and that is enough, I do agree that the overall powers of a PB could use just a little tweaking to even some things out but I'm not a number cruncher by any means so I can't say where. Also.. I didn't mean to refer to anyone as a noob or to say anyone didn't know what they were talking about.. I was more referring to the fact that wanting a PB to have more healing ability was in my opinion a noob statement. Nothing wrong with that.. I've heard pple with 52 months time in make noob statements.. everybody does it from time to time.. and again it was just my opinion... which is what this forum was created for... opinions/thoughts. But again.. if I hurt someones feelings or whatever I do apologize for that was not my intention.
With that said.. one thing I would like to see happen with PBs is the changing of Knockback.. KB, to KnockDown.. KD. This change would improve alot of pples opinion of PBs I think.. have heard quite alot of pple complain about how PBs are always slinging the baddies around and making the rest of the team chase after them.. LOL, which can be funny at times TBH. But I can see the point they are making also.. it can get annoying to always have to chase down my enemy cause someone else wants to knock em across the room, cave, street, w/e. Oh.. btw.. the best way I've found to "bypass" the leeching status of PBs.. bring the pain. My all human PB right now is hitting like a freight train, and this with with NO sets only SOs. Can't wait to see what happens once I get it slotted with IOs.... *shaking with anticipation* LOL.
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Well.. if someone could tell me exactly how PBs and WSs are "epic" then I will gladly retract my earlier statement. But I honestly just don't see it. My opinion would be diff. if these 2 ATs had access to Kheld only items.. whether it was SOs, IOs, costume pieces would be AWESOME. Something to single them out.. but they don't . Only difference is they have access to more powers.. and some of those are even useless.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Things that should never be said on the Kheldian forum ...
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You guys are having the discussions I have with myself about PB's on a daily basis... so I'll just sit back and watch for the time being. And... about the buffing pet, I still think it should not directly buff the PB for two reasons:
- Since PB's are very dynamic and each of their forms may benefit different ranges in combat (ranged, melee), I would not want a PB to feel "leashed" to the buffing pet so they would not "lose" the buffs.
- I would like to focus the PB's thoughts about supporting the team, and not supporting itself, since by prolonging the team's life the PB is prolonging the buffs given from teammates, and that in itself should be enough.
When I'm on my PB, I know who I am, the Leader and Protector of the team. There to sacrifice myself for my team, and through strategy, still survive and outlast our enemies! I also know what I want, which is better abilities to help me protect and lead the team. My suggestions are aimed exactly for that purpose.
Defenders and Controllers based on their power-sets and builds, lack the ability to lead teams, and their protection of the team is passive in nature because they simply employ their powers to defend and buff teammates, or debuff/control the enemies in such ways that the enemy cannot harm the team, but the Defender or Controller doing this usually again, based on build does not have to actually be out there taking the blows instead of a teammate! Defenders and Controllers generally pay for this with low damage, outside specific builds, of course.
Peacebringers, in my opinion, get to lead and protect the team by basically being there to intercept the blow, being buffed by their teammates, and being able to debuff the defense of the enemy with each attack they execute. My suggestions, except the buffing pet, are basically meant to augment the damage the team and the PB can do, but also allow the PB to heal everyone around it when the situation calls for it, and heal teammates without having to actually target them, which is one of the reasons I was never fond of Glowing Touch.
The thing is, if I'm in the middle of battle, blasting in Nova, or tanking in Dwarf, why would I bother shifting down to Human-form and track down a wounded teammate to use my one feeble heal on it, only to have it die seconds later to an enemy AoE? If I were given a tool that while healing me, would also heal all around me, that would encourage me to use my self heals with better strategy, and that's what I've always been interested in, better survivability, better damage, through strategy and thought, not through raw number increase.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I am glad you came back rather than being an actual troll, it is always much better to have proper conversations |
Originally Posted by OmniSurge
Sorry if I came across as a trolling *****... wasn't meaning to be. The point I was making was basically.. PBs are not meant to be healers and to add any kind of outward heals would not only take away from the PB experience (in my opinion). PBs already have 1 outward single target heal and that is enough, I do agree that the overall powers of a PB could use just a little tweaking to even some things out but I'm not a number cruncher by any means so I can't say where. Also.. I didn't mean to refer to anyone as a noob or to say anyone didn't know what they were talking about.. I was more referring to the fact that wanting a PB to have more healing ability was in my opinion a noob statement. Nothing wrong with that.. I've heard pple with 52 months time in make noob statements.. everybody does it from time to time.. and again it was just my opinion... which is what this forum was created for... opinions/thoughts. But again.. if I hurt someones feelings or whatever I do apologize for that was not my intention.
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Originally Posted by OmniSurge
With that said.. one thing I would like to see happen with PBs is the changing of Knockback.. KB, to KnockDown.. KD. This change would improve alot of pples opinion of PBs I think.. have heard quite alot of pple complain about how PBs are always slinging the baddies around and making the rest of the team chase after them.. LOL, which can be funny at times TBH. But I can see the point they are making also.. it can get annoying to always have to chase down my enemy cause someone else wants to knock em across the room, cave, street, w/e. Oh.. btw.. the best way I've found to "bypass" the leeching status of PBs.. bring the pain. My all human PB right now is hitting like a freight train, and this with with NO sets only SOs. Can't wait to see what happens once I get it slotted with IOs.... *shaking with anticipation* LOL.
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The only problems PB's have in bringing the pain are that the human attacks are pretty much single target, and the ones that aren't have that dreaded KB so many people don't understand the damage they cause. Scrappers had a similar rep once (Good damage but why would you want one) until people started proving that scrappers can add more than just boss killing.
The other problem is that when going into Nova they don't get a great benefit from Build Up because of it's short duraction, so even then they are outdamaged by Warshades and again get a bad rep.
I don't personally feel these problems will be fixed by improving the utility powers, in fact I think they might get worse and people will completely forget about PB's as damage dealers and pick them for that utility only, which would be very bad.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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All good, 'Surge, and I'm sorry if I took you the wrong way.|
Originally Posted by OmniSurge
Sorry if I came across as a trolling *****... wasn't meaning to be. The point I was making was basically.. PBs are not meant to be healers and to add any kind of outward heals would not only take away from the PB experience (in my opinion). PBs already have 1 outward single target heal and that is enough, I do agree that the overall powers of a PB could use just a little tweaking to even some things out but I'm not a number cruncher by any means so I can't say where. Also.. I didn't mean to refer to anyone as a noob or to say anyone didn't know what they were talking about.. I was more referring to the fact that wanting a PB to have more healing ability was in my opinion a noob statement. Nothing wrong with that.. I've heard pple with 52 months time in make noob statements.. everybody does it from time to time.. and again it was just my opinion... which is what this forum was created for... opinions/thoughts. But again.. if I hurt someones feelings or whatever I do apologize for that was not my intention.
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| With that said.. one thing I would like to see happen with PBs is the changing of Knockback.. KB, to KnockDown.. KD. This change would improve alot of pples opinion of PBs I think.. have heard quite alot of pple complain about how PBs are always slinging the baddies around and making the rest of the team chase after them.. LOL, which can be funny at times TBH. But I can see the point they are making also.. it can get annoying to always have to chase down my enemy cause someone else wants to knock em across the room, cave, street, w/e. Oh.. btw.. the best way I've found to "bypass" the leeching status of PBs.. bring the pain. My all human PB right now is hitting like a freight train, and this with with NO sets only SOs. Can't wait to see what happens once I get it slotted with IOs.... *shaking with anticipation* LOL. |
So while I'd love to see the kb turned into kd, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it.
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| Well.. if someone could tell me exactly how PBs and WSs are "epic" then I will gladly retract my earlier statement. But I honestly just don't see it. My opinion would be diff. if these 2 ATs had access to Kheld only items.. whether it was SOs, IOs, costume pieces would be AWESOME. Something to single them out.. but they don't . Only difference is they have access to more powers.. and some of those are even useless. |
It's widely accepted that the term "Epic" was a bit of a poor choice of words, and mentioning it in the Kheld forums often brings up a bit of indigestion among kheld drivers.
You see, the current story with regard to the term "Epic" is that khelds have an "Epic Story," to play out. Epic=Story.
It's just that nobody buys that.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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But... but... I wants the buffs, precious! |
Originally Posted by LordXenite
You guys are having the discussions I have with myself about PB's on a daily basis... so I'll just sit back and watch for the time being. And... about the buffing pet, I still think it should not directly buff the PB for two reasons:
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To your first reason, it has already been noted that teammates buff your inherent alive or dead. In fact, in a sick and twisted way they actually buff it better when dead - dead teammates don't run away to heal. Just say loudly in all caps in team chat "DON'T GO TO HOSPITAL. I HAVE WAKIES. NO, REALLY."
In all seriousness, I never feel bound to any stationary aura buff power (like tree of life, for example) in the heat of battle. Instead I use it as a focal point for the battle. I may stray, but that point becomes very strategic in my thinking. If the battle goes well, I'm okay to go where I want and do my thing. If another group is aggroed, or the tanker goes down, or things generally go south, then I can move the battle back to that buffing high ground. I may not use it every fight, but it's good to have.
Think of the Apache "Dog Men" from westerns who would pin their sash to the earth with their knife and there make their stand... their last stand... oops. Forget that analogy.
To your second reason, that's a line of thought more appropriate to the defender a/t IMHO. You're thinking along the lines of Grant Cover for Shield Defense, right? Yeah. Nobody takes that one, either. I see your logic, but quite honestly if you want to focus Peacebringers on protecting the team, then the power needs to be one they'll take. Just being pragmatic, there.
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I've recently finished watching the Bablyon 5 season 4 episode where Capt. J.J. Sheridan calls out the Vorlons (PBs) and the Shadows (WSs), and directs to them the two questions they've directed at the younger races: Who are you? (PBs), What do you want? (WSs). When I'm on my PB, I know who I am, the Leader and Protector of the team. There to sacrifice myself for my team, and through strategy, still survive and outlast our enemies! I also know what I want, which is better abilities to help me protect and lead the team. My suggestions are aimed exactly for that purpose. Defenders and Controllers based on their power-sets and builds, lack the ability to lead teams, and their protection of the team is passive in nature because they simply employ their powers to defend and buff teammates, or debuff/control the enemies in such ways that the enemy cannot harm the team, but the Defender or Controller doing this usually again, based on build does not have to actually be out there taking the blows instead of a teammate! Defenders and Controllers generally pay for this with low damage, outside specific builds, of course. Peacebringers, in my opinion, get to lead and protect the team by basically being there to intercept the blow, being buffed by their teammates, and being able to debuff the defense of the enemy with each attack they execute. My suggestions, except the buffing pet, are basically meant to augment the damage the team and the PB can do, but also allow the PB to heal everyone around it when the situation calls for it, and heal teammates without having to actually target them, which is one of the reasons I was never fond of Glowing Touch. The thing is, if I'm in the middle of battle, blasting in Nova, or tanking in Dwarf, why would I bother shifting down to Human-form and track down a wounded teammate to use my one feeble heal on it, only to have it die seconds later to an enemy AoE? If I were given a tool that while healing me, would also heal all around me, that would encourage me to use my self heals with better strategy, and that's what I've always been interested in, better survivability, better damage, through strategy and thought, not through raw number increase. |
You're forgetting someone. I believe the tanker forum would like a word with you for usurping their "protector" verbiage - they seem to have it patented.
But the tanker is designed to serve as the team's protector, and many tankers seem to also use that to mean leader as well. In fact, they protect a team much better than a Kheld ever will, buffing/controlling powers notwithstanding.
I would be the last person to say you can't protect or lead a team - I've seen you in action first-hand on both archetypes. But that is the strength in you, not the archetype.
Look, I'm all about buffing the buffing tools and giving Peacbringers more flexibility. I'll respectfully agree to disagree with Princess Darkstar and Obsidian Force in that I don't think one healing aura (I believe that is the sticking point) will obviate our damage dealing abilities in the eyes of other players or make them see us as buffers.
But it's the Tanker's primary job to take the alpha, and it's the Tankers who serve as defacto team protectors. Peacebringers can do that too, I'm not saying they can't. But they do a lot of other things as well, and it's important to distinguish between our roles as players and an archetype's role in game balance.
You are a team's protector (and darned good at it) - Peacebringers are many things.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Glad to see there r no hard feelings here. And I see ur point in the whole epic=story issue... PBs do have a great story line IMO.. well at least up to the point I got to in it.. never finished it.. Imma have to do that with my next PB. Oh.. and let me qualify my lil remark about the more powers some of which are useless. Quantum Flight... can somebody PLSE tell me what good this power is? My 1st roll I picked it.. tried it out, and immediately repec'd. LOL. Its pretty much the same as phase shift... the descript. says u fly faster.. but thats not true, and the "stun" (don't recall the name) well.. yeah.. u know. Once again.. I LOVE playing my 47 PB.... guess after reading SO many psts with pple complaining about the "annoying to team with" aspect of PBs, I now have quite a few questions.
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If I understand it correctly, Quantum Flight is supposed to be used to help you protect yourself after Lightform crashes.
Originally Posted by OmniSurge
Quantum Flight... can somebody PLEASE tell me what good this power is?
You want buffs? then protect your teammates and ensure that they're alive to buff you, or debuff the enemies! Sheesh, some leader You are Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
But... but... I wants the buffs, precious!
Believe me, I know what you're talking about, after taking 7 lowbies with me on AE farm runs so they can be power-leveled. However, I'll definitely say that keeping those 7 lowbies alive was my priority since having those solid Radiation Infection toggles up (from a */Rad Controller or a Rad/* Defender) was paramount to having everyone on the team safe, and that's just one example, there's also Dark Miasma debuffs, and Kinetic heals and the list just goes on. Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
To your first reason, it has already been noted that teammates buff your inherent alive or dead. In fact, in a sick and twisted way they actually buff it better when dead - dead teammates don't run away to heal. Just say loudly in all caps in team chat "DON'T GO TO HOSPITAL. I HAVE WAKIES. NO, REALLY."
All true, however, I simply didn't wish the PB to benefit from the power because I didn't think the PB itself needed another tool for itself, but rather another tool to passively support the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
To your second reason, that's a line of thought more appropriate to the defender a/t IMHO. You're thinking along the lines of Grant Cover for Shield Defense, right? Yeah. Nobody takes that one, either. I see your logic, but quite honestly if you want to focus Peacebringers on protecting the team, then the power needs to be one they'll take. Just being pragmatic, there.
You know, for a moment there, just a moment... I thought you've given me the perfect reason to simply give up on this suggestion, at least the healing/buffing parts of it. So I thought about it a little, and I think I've found a counter-argument. You see, the only reason I'm good at doing what I do, is that I know that unlike a Tank, I cannot protect anyone by passively soaking damage. I need to cleverly use my knock-back, my Hold, my disorient, my fear powers from the Presence Pool to actively accomplish my goal of protecting the team, while a Tank gets to sit there and soak the damage, and taunt and use a passive AoE damage ticker to gain aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You're forgetting someone. I believe the tanker forum would like a word with you for usurping their "protector" verbiage - they seem to have it patented.
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I would be the last person to say you can't protect or lead a team - I've seen you in action first-hand on both archetypes. But that is the strength in you, not the archetype.
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You are a team's protector (and darned good at it) - Peacebringers are many things.
I'm sure there's more to tanking than what I've described, but the way I see things, Tanks can tank because they're designed to be able to do it passively, without having to work at it. PB's can tank and protect the team alright, but they have to put a bigger effort into it compared to tanks.
I merely seek to polish the points in the PB AT that I think would help PB's be a bit more "protectors" of the team as well as damage dealers, and at the same time, I seek to not modify PB's so much so that they can passively protect the team like Tankers already can.
Just like Warshades can be controller'ish but have to constantly work at it, PB's can be tanker'ish, but have to constantly work at it. I just want to help PB's accomplish that by streamlining Reform Essence into something that benefits the team as well as the PB, and allowing a PB to create a safe-zone (the locational buffing-pet) for the team's less resistant members, as well as actively increasing the team's overall damage by adding -Res to each PB attack.
Believe me, if I wanted to step on people's toes, I could've suggested many more twisted things... (just take a look at the "Quantum Control" power-set idea in my signature.)
EDIT :: The -Res will be the easiest change to be felt by a PB and its team because it will increase the damage from Lv1 to Lv50. The change to add an AoE heal to Reform Essence will not allow a PB to "rock the aura" because the AoE heal component will be weak (it probably should be lesser than Glowing Touch heals for now) and the recharge will still be the same, and if Glowing Touch itself will be replaced by the location buffing pet (I think I'll call it... Light Scepter, and leave you to figure out the animation ), the power (and it's recharge) would come so late in the build as to discourage people from thinking it's a tool that's meant to modify the PB's focus from constantly attacking the enemy to becoming a defender-of-sorts.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
You want buffs? then protect your teammates and ensure that they're alive to buff you, or debuff the enemies! Sheesh, some leader You are |
I want moar.
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Believe me, I know what you're talking about, after taking 7 lowbies with me on AE farm runs so they can be power-leveled. However, I'll definitely say that keeping those 7 lowbies alive was my priority since having those solid Radiation Infection toggles up (from a */Rad Controller or a Rad/* Defender) was paramount to having everyone on the team safe, and that's just one example, there's also Dark Miasma debuffs, and Kinetic heals and the list just goes on.
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| All true, however, I simply didn't wish the PB to benefit from the power because I didn't think the PB itself needed another tool for itself, but rather another tool to passively support the team. |
Now, if you were to instead suggest that the pet could affect the enemies, like something akin to an Illusion Controller's Spectral Terror - well, maybe not the fear, but some kind of stun or -perception/tohit power. Kind of like dropping a star in all its brilliance into the midst of them. Well, I'd be on board in the front seat for that.
Or you could have the pet cast spectral wounds in an aoe.
No. I'm just kidding about spectral wounds. Allow me to /jranger myself.
/jranger
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You know, for a moment there, just a moment... I thought you've given me the perfect reason to simply give up on this suggestion, at least the healing/buffing parts of it. So I thought about it a little, and I think I've found a counter-argument. You see, the only reason I'm good at doing what I do, is that I know that unlike a Tank, I cannot protect anyone by passively soaking damage. I need to cleverly use my knock-back, my Hold, my disorient, my fear powers from the Presence Pool to actively accomplish my goal of protecting the team, while a Tank gets to sit there and soak the damage, and taunt and use a passive AoE damage ticker to gain aggro. I'm sure there's more to tanking than what I've described, but the way I see things, Tanks can tank because they're designed to be able to do it passively, without having to work at it. PB's can tank and protect the team alright, but they have to put a bigger effort into it compared to tanks. I merely seek to polish the points in the PB AT that I think would help PB's be a bit more "protectors" of the team as well as damage dealers, and at the same time, I seek to not modify PB's so much so that they can passively protect the team like Tankers already can. Just like Warshades can be controller'ish but have to constantly work at it, PB's can be tanker'ish, but have to constantly work at it. I just want to help PB's accomplish that by streamlining Reform Essence into something that benefits the team as well as the PB, and allowing a PB to create a safe-zone (the locational buffing-pet) for the team's less resistant members, as well as actively increasing the team's overall damage by adding -Res to each PB attack. Believe me, if I wanted to step on people's toes, I could've suggested many more twisted things... (just take a look at the "Quantum Control" power-set idea in my signature.)
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I was just clarifying the role of the A/T, and I think we're definitely on the same page now.I definitely agree with your point that Peacebringers are active tanks. My lv 50 Ice Tank is more than just a meat shield, and does have to work to keep the aggro under control, but his job is made much easier by the nature of his inherent. Everything he does attracts aggro and controls a crowd, whereas a Peacebringer has to be more in their face about it.
Same deal with my WS - in-your-face controlling. I like that.
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| EDIT :: The -Res will be the easiest change to be felt by a PB and its team because it will increase the damage from Lv1 to Lv50. |
Yep. Pretty much universal support for that.
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| The change to add an AoE heal to Reform Essence will not allow a PB to "rock the aura" because the AoE heal component will be weak (it probably should be lesser than Glowing Touch heals for now) and the recharge will still be the same, |
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and if Glowing Touch itself will be replaced by the location buffing pet (I think I'll call it... Light Scepter, and leave you to figure out the animation ), the power (and it's recharge) would come so late in the build as to discourage people from thinking it's a tool that's meant to modify the PB's focus from constantly attacking the enemy to becoming a defender-of-sorts.
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Like I said - I'd be on board if it affected the pb, or I'd be VERY on board for a (somewhat weak) mezzing pet like I mentioned earler. Come to think of it, I'd really like a -tohit/-perception pet.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I've taken Ascendantia on teams with an Illusion/* Controller. Whenever I saw the Illusion Controller drops their Spectral Terror, I'd rush in, no matter what form I was, and use Invoke Panic, then quickly shift to Nova to single out the frightened Bosses and focus on them till they perished. To be honest, it made things a lot easier than we've got a right to expect. Many more things are susceptible to fear/sleep/confuse than people know, and I think that letting a PB double-stack AoE fear, while being an awesome thing to do, could be a tad too much. Which is why I haven't suggested that, even though, in secret, I'd love nothing more!
About Reform Essence with an AoE heal component, the idea I had was to basically allow the PB to swoop in and by sacrificing itself (you'd have to be in Human-form), the PB would be able to heal their teammates from certain death to just above it, but not too much above it. The whole idea is that Reform Essence will become not just a self-heal, but also an emergency power to keep your teammates that are around you from dying.
I'm thinking for example about a bunch of squishy Blasters for example (remember that each Blaster grants the PB a bit of damage-resist?) who got into too much trouble, when the PB suddenly jumps in and hits Reform Essence together with Solar Flare. The result? The Blasters get a little HP infusion, the mobs fly about, and the PB is now able to Dwarf-up and taunt any mob that's still giving the Blasters the evil eye.
I'm not thinking only about overall performance and the numbers, I'm thinking first about the trick/stunt, and then how worthy is it to include it in the set, and only then, the numbers.
The problem for me with Glowing Touch is that it requires the PB to actively target the teammate who's wounded. That is something I'd require from a dedicated Healer. That in my opinion is what will make people think about PB's as weak defenders. However, if you remove the need to specifically target someone, but instead require that the PB only be close to that teammate to heal them... close enough to keep them alive... that will allow PB's to actually use their attacks, while allowing them to heal, although not as often, and not as well as a dedicated healer.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
I've taken Ascendantia on teams with an Illusion/* Controller. Whenever I saw the Illusion Controller drops their Spectral Terror, I'd rush in, no matter what form I was, and use Invoke Panic, then quickly shift to Nova to single out the frightened Bosses and focus on them till they perished. To be honest, it made things a lot easier than we've got a right to expect. Many more things are susceptible to fear/sleep/confuse than people know, and I think that letting a PB double-stack AoE fear, while being an awesome thing to do, could be a tad too much. Which is why I haven't suggested that, even though, in secret, I'd love nothing more!
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Oh I quite agree that the fear component would not only be too much, it would be out of theme. My preference would be a stationary pet with a different type of debuff. The only one I think wouldn't be overpowered is a short duration (30 seconds) long recharge (say, 120 seconds) stationary pet that is so bright that it gives a tohit and perception debuff to the spawn. I'd be okay with it being a minor tohit debuff, as well - so long as it's enhanceable.
Or - you know - let the peacebringer benefit form your suggestion
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About Reform Essence with an AoE heal component, the idea I had was to basically allow the PB to swoop in and by sacrificing itself (you'd have to be in Human-form), the PB would be able to heal their teammates from certain death to just above it, but not too much above it. The whole idea is that Reform Essence will become not just a self-heal, but also an emergency power to keep your teammates that are around you from dying. I'm thinking for example about a bunch of squishy Blasters for example (remember that each Blaster grants the PB a bit of damage-resist?) who got into too much trouble, when the PB suddenly jumps in and hits Reform Essence together with Solar Flare. The result? The Blasters get a little HP infusion, the mobs fly about, and the PB is now able to Dwarf-up and taunt any mob that's still giving the Blasters the evil eye. I'm not thinking only about overall performance and the numbers, I'm thinking first about the trick/stunt, and then how worthy is it to include it in the set, and only then, the numbers |
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| The problem for me with Glowing Touch is that it requires the PB to actively target the teammate who's wounded. That is something I'd require from a dedicated Healer. That in my opinion is what will make people think about PB's as weak defenders. However, if you remove the need to specifically target someone, but instead require that the PB only be close to that teammate to heal them... close enough to keep them alive... that will allow PB's to actually use their attacks, while allowing them to heal, although not as often, and not as well as a dedicated healer. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I'd definitely be behind something like that as well!
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
...My preference would be a stationary pet with a different type of debuff. The only one I think wouldn't be overpowered is a short duration (30 seconds) long recharge (say, 120 seconds) stationary pet that is so bright that it gives a tohit and perception debuff to the spawn. I'd be okay with it being a minor tohit debuff, as well - so long as it's enhanceable.
Precisely! Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
...That would take some careful timing, but I see where your coming from. The trick would be to get the heal high enough to give them that sliver of life and still survive the AoE's that are aimed at your dwarf.
Done, and Done! Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
...I'm all about an AoE heal, so long as it's radius is around 10 feet or so. Given what you describe above, I'm willing to support having it heal your allies less than it heals you, but with the caveat that it be for more than a token amount. Make the AoE portion unenhanceable as a tradeoff, but it should be large enough to potentially save someone's bacon even at the hottest point of the battle.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Just to play devil's advocate with myself a bit here, how would this dynamic look on an all-kheldian team? Would eight kheldians be able to each cast their theoretical pets over the same area to stack a tohit debuff that would absolutely floor a spawn's tohit? And would that be overpowered if so - especially in light of the buffs a team of eight SoA's can bring to bear? |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
My preference would be a stationary pet with a different type of debuff. The only one I think wouldn't be overpowered is a short duration (30 seconds) long recharge (say, 120 seconds) stationary pet that is so bright that it gives a tohit and perception debuff to the spawn. I'd be okay with it being a minor tohit debuff, as well - so long as it's enhanceable.
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I don't remember off the top of my head the exact number, but isn't there a cap on how much a mob's tohit chance can be debuffed? If that's so, then how many pets out at once would it take to reach that cap at, say a 12% (Touch of Fear sized) tohit debuff? This is important because cast times could then be staggered to potentially give an unreasonable amount of time to debuff a spawn's tohit.
But then, when one Kinetic controller/defender with fulcrum shift can floor a spawn's damage for the 2.9 seconds that they're still living before the damage capped team tears them up, how much would it really unbalance the game?
...just thinking out loud...
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
I sometimes think the ability of an All-Kheldian team to disorient a full spawn of AE Bosses by employing a strategy that requires only 3 Kheldians, is already overpowered...
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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The lowest hit chance is 5%, no matter how much defence you have or -tohit you stack.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
I don't remember off the top of my head the exact number, but isn't there a cap on how much a mob's tohit chance can be debuffed? If that's so, then how many pets out at once would it take to reach that cap at, say a 12% (Touch of Fear sized) tohit debuff? This is important because cast times could then be staggered to potentially give an unreasonable amount of time to debuff a spawn's tohit.
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And the base chance for an even level minion is 50%, so you would need 4 Touch of Fears to floor that chance.
Anything like that though is probably asking for too much of a change, the devs are usually willing to tweak numbers, but rarely change what powers do.
I think the most likely thing you will get rather than adding heal aura's etc is that you might get a slight debuff or stun effect added to your powers. Reform Essence imho would be better with say a mag2 stun aura than a heal aura, then you could stack that with your other stuns.
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British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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How can you say this:
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and then this:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
...the devs are usually willing to tweak numbers, but rarely change what powers do.
and not see the logic contradiction? Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
...I think the most likely thing you will get rather than adding heal aura's etc is that you might get a slight debuff or stun effect added to your powers. Reform Essence imho would be better with say a mag2 stun aura than a heal aura, then you could stack that with your other stuns.
Not to say I don't support the idea of Reform Essence with a 2m stun AoE, naturally. I just see an AoE heal to it as a natural progression of what the power already does, and a 2m stun AoE effect as more naturally added to Photon Seekers, but I dare not ask for that... at least not yet
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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It can also be used directly after you rez yourself in the middle of a huge mob, to work in much the same way as the WS'd rez works... So, you're untouchable while you re-toggle or whatever else you need to do to prep yourself to rejoin the battle.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
If I understand it correctly, Quantum Flight is supposed to be used to help you protect yourself after Lightform crashes.
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"The One"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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As I rarely take shields or phase powers, I haven't even experienced this, but I still think that's good strategy, despite being highly situational.
Originally Posted by AlienOne
It can also be used directly after you rez yourself in the middle of a huge mob, to work in much the same way as the WS'd rez works... So, you're untouchable while you re-toggle or whatever else you need to do to prep yourself to rejoin the battle.
"The One"
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
So when I look over at the team window and see my controller's life is going down, I ignore the guy in front of me, select that person's name and hit follow and incandescent strike. (or white dwarf strike, or what-have-you) Thing is, this leaves me vulnerable to an attack from the guy I just ignored, so I generally have to hit reform essence somewhere in there, too. (unless I"m rescuing a rad or an emp)
I would LOVE to have that heal affect them too so I can jump back into the fray without worrying that a stray AoE is going to waste my efforts seconds later.
So you see, it's really all about me
Utility is all well and good but PB's only have one power which directly affects a team mate so it is clearly not what the devs wanted PB's to be concentrating on.
They wanted us to be a teaming archetype. Just look at the inherent. Now that may sound really generalized, but before you call it a cop-out just think about this: Blasters and Scrappers are damage-focused archetypes. What does their inherent give them? More damage. Tankers - the crowd control archetype - get more crowd control. Defenders get the ability to use their powers for less to no endurance when it's needed the most. Controllers get.... well... more damage, but only as control increases.
Khelds get a good mix of support, defense and damage, but it only comes with a team. Therefore any changes that add team support that don't overshadow the damage dealer or self mitigation roles are right in line with that teaming dynamic.
But again, it's really all about me. I gave the caveat that I would prefer that the pet suggestion benefit the kheldian too, because I've never thought it was fair that passive pool powers like stamina don't carry over into the forms. Yes, you can slot the forms for end mod, but that was more there to pay for the cost of the form. Regen/Willpower meleers get to use stamina and quick recovery, so what's the problem?
Let me lay down a stationary recovery aura, turtle up into dwarf and tank away, and I'll be one happy lobster.
But to the point, you've just said it best. Kheldians are not supposed to be the best at anything, but I would argue that damage isn't our key strength any more than support or defense is. Our key strength is our teams. Damage is just one more tool in the toolkit.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies