Possible Peacebringer modifications?


5th_Player

 

Posted

The way it would have to work is that it summons two pseudo pets. One heals you and one casts a heal aura.

The heal self part would have to be smaller than current because the heal aura would also hit you, but from a players point of view you would still get healed for the same amount, and there would be a heal aura.

So technically it is possible (They use this mechanic a few times). I still don't like the idea, but it is possible.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar View Post
So technically it is possible (They use this mechanic a few times). I still don't like the idea, but it is possible.
Hence the thread's name...


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post

You know... for several years we've been told that the Kheldian inherent powers were not going to affect the forms (game-design concepts/game-engine), and yet that was done. We were told power-customization (at least color wise) was too complex, and that's coming too. So, you're basing your nay-saying on what exactly? game-design theory, or game-engine limitations?
I'm basing this on how the game currently works.. which I find to be a good way to measure how things work. I suppose they could allow the heal to heal the PB more than the people getting the aoe effect, but I think thats more work than the dev might be interested in spending to make the PB more like another AT.

The most likely way it would happen is one of the two ways I posted abouve.


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
The most likely way it would happen is one of the two ways I posted abouve.
I rather think they'd like to implement it the way PrincessDarkstar described, if they even choose to implement it at all.


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
I rather think they'd like to implement it the way PrincessDarkstar described, if they even choose to implement it at all.
I was unaware they used this on any powers but I do not know all the mechanics for the powers. If it's doable more power to them if they decide to use the idea. I simply do not like the idea on it's base concept.


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
I was unaware they used this on any powers but I do not know all the mechanics for the powers.
I was quite surprised at first, to learn how many powers actually do things by spawning hidden "pets" that heal, buff or debuff, and even cause damage ticks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
If it's doable more power to them if they decide to use the idea.
I figure it's doable just because they're the Devs and they can essentially do anything they'd like and this doesn't seem like something that would pose a technical difficulty to the game-engine in its current version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
I simply do not like the idea on it's base concept.
I know, I know... if it's not about damage, it's not worth your time


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
I was quite surprised at first, to learn how many powers actually do things by spawning hidden "pets" that heal, buff or debuff, and even cause damage ticks.

I figure it's doable just because they're the Devs and they can essentially do anything they'd like and this doesn't seem like something that would pose a technical difficulty to the game-engine in its current version.

I know, I know... if it's not about damage, it's not worth your time
Actually I knew some powers spawned pets to cause an effect, I was unaware some powers spawned 2 pets for differing effects.

And it's not su much not worth my time as, if I wanted to play a support toon I would make one. And my support toons do actually outnumber my damage toons so your just placing opinions of me you think fit, which is fine as I dont really mind. But when I play a damage oriented character I pick one (and like it or not Khelds are a damage oriented character whos main job is doing damage.).

You can build anything to be anything in this game and I don't care who makes what dispite what some people seem to proclaim, but trying to convince me a Kheldian isn't a predominantly damage oriented character and trying to build them as damage dealers and not support somehow makes me crazy is going to require a bit more proof than "well you can do it so it's gotta be good to do so."


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
...Khelds are a damage oriented character whos main job is doing damage...
See, I've never seen this "Kheldians are damage oriented" line come from a Dev, or any in-game related text.

It's not that I'm saying Kheldians don't do damage, or don't do enough damage, I am saying though that I always feel like there's more to the Kheldian potential than mere damage, and I feel that should be addressed, by both players and Devs together.

On the damage front, I feel Kheldians already do quite a bit of damage, especially with the I13 changes, and it's time to augment their other aspects.


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
See, I've never seen this "Kheldians are damage oriented" line come from a Dev, or any in-game related text.

It's not that I'm saying Kheldians don't do damage, or don't do enough damage, I am saying though that I always feel like there's more to the Kheldian potential than mere damage, and I feel that should be addressed, by both players and Devs together.

On the damage front, I feel Kheldians already do quite a bit of damage, especially with the I13 changes, and it's time to augment their other aspects.
FWIW, I remembered Geko originally posting something with about a Kheldian role, but alas I fear it's been purged in the migration (or was long ago lost). However, Google is my friend, today. I found what I was looking for in an old WarCry article:

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Kheldians are not supposed to replace Tankers and Blasters, or any other Archetype. They fulfill a unique role. A metamorphic one, if you will. That is, they have the ability, at your discretion or skill, to fulfill many roles within a team. So Kheldians can Blast, Tank, or Control... they can even Scrap or Defend a little. But they were never meant to be better than Tankers, Blasters, whatever. They are meant to be the best at, let's call it, adapting. They are ShapeShifters by nature. We want them to be versatile, and challenging, but not perfect or all-powerful.

The entire article is here.

Now, having posted that, keep in mind that that was a hella long time ago, and Kheldians have changed more than a little since then. A Kheldian's primary role has been a hotly contested debate for as long as we've had Kheldians, but I've never seen the Developers waver from that vision.

I wasn't playing back when they were introduced, however, so someone who was or with better search fu might be able to find something different.

If so, I'd love to see it.


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
Wow Joe... awesome find.

I started reading and got to this part:
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I think some of the issues that have come from the "slot" discussion is that players always want to 6 slot most of their powers. But that is not required to be a successful Kehldian. When in Nova form, Kheldians do base 20% more damage than Blasters. They also have an inherent 50% damage boost from the Nova power itself. That means without any Enhancements, a Nova attack does about 80% more damage than a typical Blaster attack. So you don't "have to" 6 slot the Nova attack powers to be effective.
...and got to this part:
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We have considered not allowing slots in the shape shifting inherent (attack) powers, but let the Enhancements from the Root Shape Shifting power trickle down to the attack powers (like pet powers do). But internal testing proved that to bee too powerful. It made each Enhancement 4 times as effective. In the end, we want you to have to make sacrifices and tough choices when you build your Kheldian. Hopefully, this will result in many different viable Kheldian Builds. This might mean shape shifting specialists, Human form specialists, Nova/Humans, Dwarf/Humans, or maybe players who start out one way, and respect out as they advance in level.
Now, I know that all this has been said/typed a long time ago, and Geko is gone, and quite possibly, the whole vision as he explained it, is something a lot of players want to break away from, forget about and simply build the most awesome damage dealing character ever created, however, those design decisions, like it or not, are still with us and reflect nowadays in our modern-day Kheldians.

The emphasized part in the last quote I posted sums it all up very nicely. Kheldians are supposed to be versatile and their uniqueness comes not from filling just one role, but rather from adapting to the circumstances. Wanting to fixate Kheldians on damage dealing alone, to me, seems contradictory to the spirit of versatility.

I don't mean to say that damage should not be a goal in one's Kheldian build, but I do say it shouldn't be the only one, and I would also like to add that I feel it's high-time the Devs did more to flesh out Kheldians other aspects, especially for Peacebringers, thus the reason for this thread in the first place.


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Truer words have never been /bolded. I only had time to skim the article, although I've read Geko's comments before when they were on the actual boards. Back when we were debating mez protection solutions and kheldian buffs I went back and read all of that exhaustively, and from 2005 forward I never found one deviation from that vision in anything the developers said or did.

Sure, changes have been made to the archetype - but in every case they were made to enhance the archetype with respect to its versatility. They added damage, sure (most recently); but that was because kheldians had been shown to be unbalanced toward the support/tanker role. Had Castle intended to change the archetype's role to one of pure damage, I'm inclined to think he wouldn't have worried so much about mez protection obviating dwarf form. More importantly though, I'd think he would have said something about a change in the "Kheldian Role."


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

Let me see if I got this.

The current Kheldians do not do enough "support" so your assuming thats an oversight on the developers part and not a strong indication their not really ment for support and you want the AT changed to better reflect your views on Kheldians?

Once again I find it odd that this sort of thing only happens here.

The developers will not ever come out and state the role of Kheldians no matter who wants them to or how badly, but in my opinion the fact Kheldians do not have enough control powers to be truely effective controllers or enough buffs/debuffs/heal others to really take on a support role effectively but DO actually have enough damage to make formidable damage dealers to me points the way. Just as it does for each and every other AT.

We can do effective damage, we can effectively tank. This is built into the AT for a reason, and the fact we lack other abilities commonly attributed to other AT's I believe is also for a reason.

Again, just to be clear. I do not care how anyone builds their toons, more power to ya, but assuming the reason Kheldians dont have more support is because the developers never thought of it and it's some tradgic oversight I believe to be nothing but wishfull thinking on the part of people who as Darkstar said so well "claim to love Kheldians but do not actually love them because they want to change them into something their currently not."


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
They added damage, sure (most recently); but that was because kheldians had been shown to be unbalanced toward the support/tanker role.
If I remember correctly, the additional damage (I13) comes from changing damage modifiers of Human-form attacks and from applying the inherent buffs to the Kheldian Nova/Dwarf forms just like they already affect Human-form and its powers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
Had Castle intended to change the archetype's role to one of pure damage, I'm inclined to think he wouldn't have worried so much about mez protection obviating dwarf form.
I think that had Castle wanted Warshades to be all about damage, he wouldn't have taken away the double-Mire/Eclipsed/Nova that would obliterate two spawns by itself while the team was fighting another in the previous room!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
More importantly though, I'd think he would have said something about a change in the "Kheldian Role."
And that would have been accepted with as much respect and tolerance as Geko's words... I'm sure!


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post

I think that had Castle wanted Warshades to be all about damage, he wouldn't have taken away the double-Mire/Eclipsed/Nova that would obliterate two spawns by itself while the team was fighting another in the previous room!
I'm not sure why you think this was taken away. I still do this more often than not. And the difficulty in pulling it off is not much higher than before the Dwarf Mire changes.


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
I do not care how anyone builds their toons, more power to ya, but assuming the reason Kheldians dont have more support is because the developers never thought of it and it's some tragic oversight I believe to be nothing but wishfull thinking on the part of people who as Darkstar said so well "claim to love Kheldians but do not actually love them because they want to change them into something their currently not."
Excuse me??? Where have I said anything about Dev's oversight? Are you putting words in my "mouth" now?

EDIT :: You know what?! Let me give you another point to think about, how about that since the Devs improved Human-form damage and allowed the inherent buffs to affect the forms (which essentially allows Kheldians to perform better all around), the Devs would now focus on allowing Kheldians to support the team above and beyond mere damage, in ways similar to what SoA's do, but in an active fashion rather than through passive auto/toggle powers? Is that really so much to ask do you think?


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
I'm not sure why you think this was taken away. I still do this more often than not. And the difficulty in pulling it off is not much higher than before the Dwarf Mire changes.
But you do it for much shorter time than was possible before the change. Shorter time, means less damage. You're the numbers guy, remember?


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

If originaly we were meant to be jack of all trades and they buffed our damage enough to make people think that we are a class meant only for dmg. I think that a change towards our controller/protector abilities should be buffed in some way. Hard thing to do yes but it doable.

you keep saying we are not effective enough as controller to control... thats exactly the point. The devs should be trying to find a way to make those abilities a bit stronger. It would only give people more options as to how they play.

So far our tanking if fairly nice and our dmg output is really good. But the control and protector elements could use some love.

I was gonna not too much love but is there such a thing ?

I know people don't like to hear this but when I was playing WoW I was playing a shaman the jack of all trade of the game. and for many years only the healing spec was viable. But i was one of those hard headed who wanted to deal dmg. I could have said like the others '' we are clearly meant for healing our other abilities are not strong enough'' But I didn't and eventually they buffed them do be able to dmg fairly well. You just have to keep believing in the devs


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
Let me see if I got this.

The current Kheldians do not do enough "support" so your assuming thats an oversight on the developers part and not a strong indication their not really ment for support and you want the AT changed to better reflect your views on Kheldians?

Once again I find it odd that this sort of thing only happens here.

The developers will not ever come out and state the role of Kheldians no matter who wants them to or how badly, but in my opinion the fact Kheldians do not have enough control powers to be truely effective controllers or enough buffs/debuffs/heal others to really take on a support role effectively but DO actually have enough damage to make formidable damage dealers to me points the way. Just as it does for each and every other AT.

We can do effective damage, we can effectively tank. This is built into the AT for a reason, and the fact we lack other abilities commonly attributed to other AT's I believe is also for a reason.

Again, just to be clear. I do not care how anyone builds their toons, more power to ya, but assuming the reason Kheldians dont have more support is because the developers never thought of it and it's some tradgic oversight I believe to be nothing but wishfull thinking on the part of people who as Darkstar said so well "claim to love Kheldians but do not actually love them because they want to change them into something their currently not."
I'm curious what you think of the WarCry article I linked to previously regarding Kheldians - you know, the one where a developer explicitly stated what their intentions were for a Kheldian role? If you'd like me to post it in a nutshell, here's what Geko said:

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They are meant to be the best at, let's call it, adapting.
Note that adapting =/= damage.

I'm just a little surprised that you, who asked for
Quote:
a bit more proof than "well you can do it so it's gotta be good to do so."
haven't addressed that article or the quote at all.

There's proof, as requested. Now allow me to turn it around and say that you're going to need a bit more proof than "the powers look like they're slanted in the damage direction, therefore Kheldians must have a primary damage role in spite of what the developers themselves have said."

Can you provide that proof? Or will you look for a way to invalidate what Geko said?

Like I said, I'm curious as to where it goes from here. I really don't have a row to hoe in this, but I find it an interesting debate.


The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
But you do it for much shorter time than was possible before the change. Shorter time, means less damage. You're the numbers guy, remember?

First off, remember, numbers mean nothing in the face of anecdotal play experience, or so I have been told often enough. And secondly I never claimed to be the numbers guy. I simply support they can give an accurate picture of scenerios. So which is it? Are the numbers accurate or are they not?

I personaly don't care which you support I'm just tired of the numbers only being important when they support popular poster opinions.


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe View Post
I'm curious what you think of the WarCry article I linked to previously regarding Kheldians - you know, the one where a developer explicitly stated what their intentions were for a Kheldian role? If you'd like me to post it in a nutshell, here's what Geko said:



Note that adapting =/= damage.

I'm just a little surprised that you, who asked for

haven't addressed that article or the quote at all.

There's proof, as requested. Now allow me to turn it around and say that you're going to need a bit more proof than "the powers look like they're slanted in the damage direction, therefore Kheldians must have a primary damage role in spite of what the developers themselves have said."

Can you provide that proof? Or will you look for a way to invalidate what Geko said?

Like I said, I'm curious as to where it goes from here. I really don't have a row to hoe in this, but I find it an interesting debate.
What I think isn't important but here goes,"adapting" means nothing, it might not mean damage but it most certainly doesn't mean support either. It supports neither side of the arguement as he from what I saw never states specificly what the role is.

To me "Adapting" means you can tank and do damage and use some very limited control abilities.

If that is your proof I find it uninformative, I really have no row to hoe either other than the fact that most of the powers in both sets are damage causing powers, not holds, or heals, or controls. I cannot prove anything but I'm also not the one attempting to change the AT and sets, I'm happy with them as they are (although I do not see a problem with the -ressist componant at all.)

I do not believe the burden of proof falls on me.


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordXenite View Post
Now, I know that all this has been said/typed a long time ago, and Geko is gone, and quite possibly, the whole vision as he explained it, is something a lot of players want to break away from, forget about and simply build the most awesome damage dealing character ever created, however, those design decisions, like it or not, are still with us and reflect nowadays in our modern-day Kheldians.

The emphasized part in the last quote I posted sums it all up very nicely. Kheldians are supposed to be versatile and their uniqueness comes not from filling just one role, but rather from adapting to the circumstances. Wanting to fixate Kheldians on damage dealing alone, to me, seems contradictory to the spirit of versatility.
QUOTED. FOR. TRUTH.

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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades View Post
The way you play changes your IO slotting..


76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
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Posted

And yet if you exclude tanking and damage dealing, what role can a Kheldian truely fill on a team? None. They simply are not designed to as they do not have enough of the powers used to do the roles your talking about. This is not in my opinion a developer oversight but a planned level of performance.


If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.

 

Posted

Giving Peacbringers a weak AoE heal on top of their personal heal, and allowing them to create a safety zone where teammates can benefit from +End;+Def will only turn them into support characters if the player playing them will allow this to happen!

In other words, I trust most Peacebringers out there to decide for themselves when to swoop down and heal their surrounding teammates and when to focus on fighting the enemies.

If augmenting one power in the whole Peacebringer power-set equals making the Peacebringer a support-character, then perhaps Peacebringers never were anything other than support characters, because quite frankly, how can one power define a role, right?


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2 View Post
And yet if you exclude tanking and damage dealing, what role can a Kheldian truely fill on a team?
I think that this exactly the point and thats why I think people are asking buffs in the other areas of the kheldian powers. What if we could be more than dmg dealer but truely be jack of all trades ? Would that really be a bad thing. I think it would just give us more options which is always fun.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by CaptainQC View Post
I think that this exactly the point and thats why I think people are asking buffs in the other areas of the kheldian powers. What if we could be more than dmg dealer but truely be jack of all trades ?
The shock... the horror! Someone wanting to do more than just... damage?! Impossible!


I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!

Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) Augmenting Peacebringers The Umbra Illuminati