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You know, I would have probably been on the naysayers side of the glowing touch issue (I don't have it myself on my PB), but after doing two all-Kheld iTFs recently on my tri-form build WS teamed with a couple bad-*** Human-only PBs who HAD it and managed to save my butt a few times from the brink of death on those TFs....|
Originally Posted by Vessel of Light
Why do people always want to take away glowing touch? Perhaps I just play oddly but it, along with the medicine pool ( which I understand some people dont like on khelds), gives me something I can do to actively help out team members.
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....I'm kinda likin' it now. I guess you never really fully appreciate a power until you realize its potential.
"The One"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
I have to say that the discussion, especially when things aren't going "my" way, is quite interesting and stimulating.
About adding a buff component to Glowing Touch, I'm very much against that. My vision, if you will, for what healing a PB should be able to do, is actually something like transferring the PB's life force to its surrounding team-mates, but the first time around when I suggested this be implemented, people were so violently against the idea that I decided that this time around, I'll just suggest a modest AoE team-heal component be added to Reform Essence, and Glowing Touch either be left alone, or entirely replaced with something new that will hopefully give PB's team a strategic advantage some Defenders/Controllers can provide.
Peacebringers will always have only themselves to blame if they let themselves be invited into teams that want them for their "healing".
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
The change I think would most help Glowing Touch would be improving its range to 50 or 60 feet. The power's got the same stats as Heal Other (different green numbers come out of empaths and pbs because of AT scalars), except for range. Heal Other's range is 80 feet. Glowing Touch is 30. In COH 30 feet is a lot shorter than it looks, and you end up spending a lot of time chasing people around if you want to try and heal them with it. Give it a bit more and it'll be far more usable.
Photon seekers... I've posted alot on them in the past. I'm still waiting for Castle or some other redname to let us know if they're supposed to be a type of nuke, a more normal AOE attack, or a pet. Cause they're implemented as a pet and take pet invention sets, but they have the recharge time and damage of a nuke, and they have the target cap and radius of a PBAOE (not even ranged AOE) attack. All in all it adds up to an atrociously-performing power.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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I've got no problem with improving the range on Glowing Touch, but as a TriFormPB however, dropping to Human-form to heal someone seems like a waste of energy which is why I removed that power, as well as the Medicine Pool from my current TriFormPB build.
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
The change I think would most help Glowing Touch would be improving its range to 50 or 60 feet.
As a Human-only PB, I've seen how good Glowing Touch can be, but I think that another way to increase the performance of PB's healing powers would be to add an AoE heal component to either Reform Essence, or Glowing Touch. This would convince me to reconsider taking the power even on a TriFormPB build.
I use them as a PBAoE which I can execute in conjunction with another AoE power. When used like that, they definitely do not seem atrocious, but the ability to use them as a distraction/diversion is also quite entertaining so I wouldn't want the power to be changed into an actual PBAoE, and I'm quite happy with them being "pets".Quote:
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
...they're implemented as a pet and take pet invention sets, but they have the recharge time and damage of a nuke, and they have the target cap and radius of a PBAOE (not even ranged AOE) attack. All in all it adds up to an atrociously-performing power.
They're sort of a mini-nuke on a leash which is unique even if more difficult to tame.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
The problem with photon seekers' performance isn't that they don't do something cool, and it's no longer (but used to be) unreliability. Mine do a pretty good job of at least exploding now.
My complaint about them is that their numbers don't produce a particularly good average over time in comparison with other AOE attack powers, and they are extremely poor in comparison to the efficiency and effectiveness of any "true" pet.
According to Mids and City of Data, slotted out for damage and recharge, seekers will deal a maximum of 533 damage to 10 targets with a 154 second recycle, or 34.6 damage per cycle. Dawn Strike with the same slotting will deal 422 damage to 16 targets every 184 seconds, or 36.7 damage per cycle. This is comparable... for now.
By way of comparison with the 'normal' AOE's in a PB's arsenal, luminous detonation will deal 78 damage to 16 targets every 8.2 seconds with that slotting, which gives it a very nice 152.2 damage per cycle. Solar flare, 130 damage, 10 targets, 10.3 recycle for 126.2 damage per cycle.
In English, what this all means is something rather obvious - powers with a 5 to 6 minute base recharge don't actually do a lot of average damage over time in comparison with powers on more normal recharges, and powers that hit more targets are going to do more damage overall than powers that hit fewer targets, even if they do less damage per target.
The problem with photon seekers's performance comes from three factors.
- They can't be buffed. That dawn strike will do 579 damage per target, or 50.1 damage per cycle, if you just hit buildup first. And who doesn't?
- Their small radius - 10 feet - means actually hitting 10 targets is rare. Enemy collision helps to ensure this, generally speaking, 5-6 "person size" enemies are all that will fit in a 10 foot radius; larger model enemies might fit only 2.
- Their maximum damage as used here, assumes every seeker hits the same targets, but there are numerous conditions where they won't (one or more might miss as they each make a to-hit roll, they might scatter and explode at different points, the knockback from one might throw a target out of the radius of the others, or if you are somehow at or over their target cap, they might not pick the same targets).
This means that while it's almost trivial to hit 10 targets with a solar flare or 16 with a dawn strike, it's almost impossible to hit 10 targets with a single photon seeker... let alone the same 10 targets with all 3 of them. So you're never, or almost never, going to get so much as close to their theoretical maximum output - whereas you're regularly going to get close to the maxium for dawnstrikes, and on the normal AOEs, their efficiency could be cut in half (and often is, cause they scatter things around...) and yet still be double or more the maximum efficiency of seekers.
In practice, seekers damage per cycle is probably around 20-25, as a guesstimate, which is about half that of a built-up dawnstrike. So while they look like a nuke and act like a nuke, the truth is, they fail badly at being a nuke, almost entirely because they don't have the radius of a nuke, but partly because they can't be buffed and because they have a lower target cap (if the radius but not the target cap were increased, they'd have comparable practical performance to a non-BU dawnstrike).
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
I'm definitely not saying that Photon Seekers are performing at a comparable level to Dawn Strike, Solar Flare or other damage powers.
I am saying though that were I in charge of changing Photon Seekers, it wouldn't be damage that would be added to them.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Well, I'm not advocating damage either - I'm advocating making a decision on what the power's supposed to be: pet, regular AOE, or nuke-AOE. And then adjusting it to fit properly within that role.
Statistically it works closest to a nuke. Thus under the assumption that is the intention for the power's use, I would suggest it be switched from accepting pet sets to accepting ranged AOE sets, be given a 20 or 25 foot radius, and either be made to inherit the caster's buffs so that buildup and cosmic balance will improve its damage, or increase the target cap to 16 - doing both without reducing the original damage would likely make it an unbalanced power.
I more specifically would favor having it inherit buffs, as it seems to be the only pseudo-pet in the entire game that doesn't (even burn patches will inherit their caster's buffs...).
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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I would say the reason for adding the additional debuff is because the raw damage is meant to be on par with Warshades, so they need to do something that they won't have to also give Warshades.|
Originally Posted by Vessel of Light
The idea about attacks giving -resist is interesting, it does seem rather odd to have attacks debuff -resist and -def though, if it is felt that PB damage is actually lacking why not up the damage instead of making attacks debuff multiple things. I would take the resist and even the added AoE healing if it was offered but I would like to keep my glowing touch.
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The -res would make up for the fact that Warshades have Sunless Mire, but if you upped for example the Bright Nova damage you would get some very unhappy Warshades (Upping human damage would be less controversial, but would still cause a few sad Warshades).
And -res improves damage from the whole team, so works out as a great buff.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Here's the thing...
Peacebringers are largely static. They're self-contained so you can always be sure of how they'll perform. Warshades... aren't. Given a single tough target, the PB will usually do better, but against large mobs, the Warshade will blow the PB out of the water.
Personally, I don't think much tweaking needs to be done to bring the two ATs in line with each other - right now many of the concerns are that some PB powers are just a bit out of whack and need to be looked at. Quite a bit of progress could be made with only minor tweaks to their existing powers (make Photon Seekers worthwhile, for instance, or make Pulsar not suck quite so badly).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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No objections here.
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I more specifically would favor having it inherit buffs, as it seems to be the only pseudo-pet in the entire game that doesn't (even burn patches will inherit their caster's buffs...).
Which is why I always thought that if Photon Seekers packed a mag 2 stun, together with Pulsar that would be a major improvement to both powers. Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull
Quite a bit of progress could be made with only minor tweaks to their existing powers (make Photon Seekers worthwhile, for instance, or make Pulsar not suck quite so badly).
Also, adding a self-stackable -Res (up to a possible ceiling of around 35% if the PB also slotted Chance for -Res IO's) to every PB power would improve PB damage over time, and at the same time improve the PB's debuffing power while keeping PB's expected performance at a constant level. 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
I think Pulsar should be mag 3 to match Gravitic Emanation, Photon seekers needs its recharge lowered to match Extract Essence, the damage bonus Build Up grants should be larger and it should be given the Fiery Embrace treatment (+all damage for 10 seconds and +energy damage for 30 seconds) to make it more useful during a form switch. Group Energy Flight needs to have some incentive to even take the power in the first place, such as an increased speed, reduced endurance cost, and removal of the tohit debuff. Glowing Touch needs to have its range standardized to 80 feet and the heal amount increased.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I'd rather add +2 stun to Photon Seekers so that a PB can reliably stun a Boss combining Pulsar and Photon Seekers.
Originally Posted by macskull
I think Pulsar should be mag 3 to match Gravitic Emanation...
I definitely can't argue against that.Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull
...Photon seekers needs its recharge lowered to match Extract Essence
I'd support that too, but I think I'd rather see the -Res effect added to each power before I'd go after Build Up.Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull
...the damage bonus Build Up grants should be larger and it should be given the Fiery Embrace treatment (+all damage for 10 seconds and +energy damage for 30 seconds) to make it more useful during a form switch.
Most definitely a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull
...Group Energy Flight needs to have some incentive to even take the power in the first place, such as an increased speed, reduced endurance cost, and removal of the tohit debuff.
To be honest, even that won't convince me to take the power on a TriFormPB build, but it's a good idea anyway. Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull
...Glowing Touch needs to have its range standardized to 80 feet and the heal amount increased.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Personally I would like to see Quantum Flight changed back to how it was. I know people used it as a ghosting power, so I can understand why they changed it, but I would rather have it back to that way without the endurance penalty.
I wouldn't care if they made the phase wear off after 30 seconds but let the power stay on without penalty until you detoggled. Preferably I would rather the power have really high +def like Personal Force Field and leave the effect self component.
I have never understood why travel powers are included in certan archetypes power selection only for them to have a penalty or a reason that they can't be used as a travel power.
Also I would like to see Cosmic Balance completely revamped to be a bonus that remains as long as you are teamed rather than within a certain range.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
As a support Kheld in our all Khedian SG, I feel obligated to post.
Practically anything that replaces Group Energy Flight has my approval. ;P
P.S. Don't take Glowing Touch away! :X
P.P.S. Oh yeah, we should start getting some people on board for all Kheld STFs on Infinity.
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Not a pseudo pet. |
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
I more specifically would favor having it inherit buffs, as it seems to be the only pseudo-pet in the entire game that doesn't (even burn patches will inherit their caster's buffs...).
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You can see the photon seekers in the pet control panel, target them, and check their inherent buff and AI (even if you can't change it). Exactly like controller type pets
Pseudo pets don't show in the pet control panel, and AFAIK, they also don't move.
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Not even if Reform Essence would have an AoE heal component?
Originally Posted by TundraCommando
...Don't take Glowing Touch away!
Seeing as most people who play Peacebringers would more often play on normal teams rather than All Kheldian teams, would that not be more helpful?
Agreed, but what about getting everyone ready for an AKITF first? Quote:
Originally Posted by TundraCommando
...Oh yeah, we should start getting some people on board for all Kheld STFs on Infinity.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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And I'm gonna need a few more Thursday Nights before I can even be ready for that!
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
Agreed, but what about getting everyone ready for an AKITF first? |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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And yet they exist as a mechanic to deliver a power, which is the behavior and purpose of a pseudo pet. (I'm assuming you'll agree they aren't the same as an actual pet, ie, fire imps or extracted essences).
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Originally Posted by Sadyre
Not a pseudo pet.
You can see the photon seekers in the pet control panel, target them, and check their inherent buff and AI (even if you can't change it). Exactly like controller type pets Pseudo pets don't show in the pet control panel, and AFAIK, they also don't move. |
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Well sure it would be more helpful I suppose, although it would make the user much more vulnerable to death (if using solely for the team) since they would lose the ability to heal themselves reliably. I imagine the healing power of Reform Essence would be nerfed a bit as well to make up for the AoE component if it did get implemented.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
Not even if Reform Essence would have an AoE heal component? Seeing as most people who play Peacebringers would more often play on normal teams rather than All Kheldian teams, would that not be more helpful? |
Oh yeah, and the obligatory "Down with Group Energy Flight!" ;P
That is all...
Edit- And yes we "do" need to run some AKITF's too.
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Uhh.. no, did I say that?! I support no nerfs to Reform Essence and never would!
Originally Posted by TundraCommando
Well sure it would be more helpful I suppose, although it would make the user much more vulnerable to death (if using solely for the team) since they would lose the ability to heal themselves reliably. I imagine the healing power of Reform Essence would be nerfed a bit as well to make up for the AoE component if it did get implemented.
If all that comes out of this thread is +Res is added to every PB power the way I described it, I'd be ecstatic! Everything else is sugarcoating... 
Yeah, only problem is getting a full team of Kheldians all over Lv35. Hasn't seemed to have happened even once yet, has it?! Quote:
Originally Posted by TundraCommando
And yes we "do" need to run some AKITF's too.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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No you didn't, but that's probably what would happen when the devs were finished. I mean, a possible 560-ish AoE heal. If I can recall, that's higher than an Emp's AoE (correct me if I'm wrong). :O|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
Uhh.. no, did I say that?! I support no nerfs to Reform Essence and never would! |
And nope we haven't run one yet.
Although it almost happened once, hehehe
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Woah! Dude! Where did you get that I wanted the AoE heal to be higher than an Emp's AoE heal?!
Originally Posted by TundraCommando
No you didn't, but that's probably what would happen when the devs were finished. I mean, a possible 560-ish AoE heal. If I can recall, that's higher than an Emp's AoE (correct me if I'm wrong).
I thought I specifically said it was supposed to be something that's less than what Controllers get from Radiation Emission or Kinetics, and seeing as Kinetics is quite high as it is, I'd settle for something less than what Controllers get from their Radiation Emission AoE heal.
If that's the impression I gave you, no wonder some people thought I wanted to turn PB's into Defenders...
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
No offence, but you cannot have it both ways even in Kheldian happy happy land.
Either you want the power to remain unchanged except for making it AOE (in which case well slotted it WILL beat Empathy)...OR
You want the Power to be AOE and have the amount of heal reduced to compensate for it being an AOE, in which case it is below empathy's ability, but also now heals the PB for less than it used to.
If there is a third choice I'm all ears.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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You know... for several years we've been told that the Kheldian inherent powers were not going to affect the forms (game-design concepts/game-engine), and yet that was done. We were told power-customization (at least color wise) was too complex, and that's coming too. So, you're basing your nay-saying on what exactly? game-design theory, or game-engine limitations?
Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
No offence, but you cannot have it both ways even in Kheldian happy happy land.
Either you want the power to remain unchanged except for making it AOE (in which case well slotted it WILL beat Empathy)...OR
You want the Power to be AOE and have the amount of heal reduced to compensate for it being an AOE, in which case it is below empathy's ability, but also now heals the PB for less than it used to.
If there is a third choice I'm all ears.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
I have to agree with the naysayers on the heal issue. The day someone invites my PB to a team for the purpose of healing is the day I'll probably kill (delete) both of my PB toons. I can't speak on the photon seekers/pets issue due to the fact.. I don't use em. Photon seekers just get on my nerves, especially since I'm easily distracted. The one time I did use them..(test run for the power) I ended up face down because I was watching them instead of my actual toon. Of course this coulda had something to due with the fact I was also in Light Form at the time (LMAO).
Anyway.. on the heal issue... PB's IMO are meant to be the all around AT, which is why they have a outside heal power in the first place. To add a AoE heal/team heal would complete fly in the face of the idea behind the archtype. PB's are not meant to act as support, they are meant to lead teams to victory, even when the person isn't the one with the star. More than a few times I have been on a mish team (not a farm) and with out anything being said about it, the team has ended up giving me the lead. I might not have the star but where I go they follow. I think this has alot to do with a PB's ability to do pretty much everything all the other ATs can do. Maybe not as well, but can still do.
PB's... depending on ur playstyle, can make good blasters, a decent tank. (within reason), they have a few AoEs, a few melee powers, and even a heal other power for those emergency heals on the designated team healer. This is why I personally think PB's are THE BEST AT in the game. Not saying some tweaking here and there wouldn't be welcomed, but overall I see nothing wrong with the archtype. Well except for the whole... PB's were first "advertised" as being "epic" and I don't see where the "epic" comes from. My idea of epic would be a demi-god sorta AT. Now THAT is something we should be asking for.