So Glad Debt Has Gone

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@Scarlet Shocker,

Death is a better feedback mechanism that debt. Death lets you know poerfectly if you need to change what you're doing because it isn't working.

You don't need to be punished further. Although I think the current debt system is fine.

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Well clearly it's not enough: It is inconsequential. If there's not a rezzer on the team you've probably got a wakey or a self-rez in your temp powers and if not you can make a wakey easy as anything.

There is nothing in Defeat to teach a new player anything now - Debt was a good way of teaching people how to play the game.

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No it wasn't, and not having any wakies was the reason the 3 inspi feature was implemented. So people can use 3 of their inspis to make a wakey or anything else they might need.

Like previous posters have said, death is a failure enough. It's a good feedback mechanism to show you you need to do something different.

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@Scarlet Shocker,

Death is a better feedback mechanism that debt. Death lets you know poerfectly if you need to change what you're doing because it isn't working.

You don't need to be punished further. Although I think the current debt system is fine.

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Well clearly it's not enough: It is inconsequential. If there's not a rezzer on the team you've probably got a wakey or a self-rez in your temp powers and if not you can make a wakey easy as anything.

There is nothing in Defeat to teach a new player anything now - Debt was a good way of teaching people how to play the game.

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No it wasn't, and not having any wakies was the reason the 3 inspi feature was implemented. So people can use 3 of their inspis to make a wakey or anything else they might need.

Like previous posters have said, death is a failure enough. It's a good feedback mechanism to show you you need to do something different.

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It could, in fact, be argued that debt is the same feedback mechanism as a trip to the hospital; all both achieve a reduction in the rate at which a player earns xp. Why not just replace debt entirely with a re-spawn timer? Not that I would advocate this, but is there any difference?

The true bit of feedback is failure to complete the mission. If a player keeps dying rather than killing the end of mission EB they will be forced to come up with different tactics. The only alternatives are getting a more powerful character on the team, or just calling the contact and dropping the mission.

If you think of it this way, the real death knell for defeat, so to speak, is the ability to drop a mission. A player finds something they are struggling to do and rather than having to think of a new approach or alter their tactics they simply auto-complete the mission and move on to something else.

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No it wasn't, and not having any wakies was the reason the 3 inspi feature was implemented. So people can use 3 of their inspis to make a wakey or anything else they might need.

Like previous posters have said, death is a failure enough. It's a good feedback mechanism to show you you need to do something different.

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It could, in fact, be argued that debt is the same feedback mechanism as a trip to the hospital; all both achieve a reduction in the rate at which a player earns xp. Why not just replace debt entirely with a re-spawn timer? Not that I would advocate this, but is there any difference?

The true bit of feedback is failure to complete the mission. If a player keeps dying rather than killing the end of mission EB they will be forced to come up with different tactics. The only alternatives are getting a more powerful character on the team, or just calling the contact and dropping the mission.

If you think of it this way, the real death knell for defeat, so to speak, is the ability to drop a mission. A player finds something they are struggling to do and rather than having to think of a new approach or alter their tactics they simply auto-complete the mission and move on to something else.

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I'd be in the "Defeat is it's own penalty" camp. When we had old school debt I never minded dying occasionally, unless it was with a car-crash PuG where it had been said at the start that the diff might be too high.

Last night it took me and another chap 2 wipes to take out Metal Shift (he was level 32, we were 30 and I was 29) but it was really, really enjoyable. Especially the first fight where I was Furyed up, my teammate played a blinder keeping me alive and we had him down to a sliver of health. Eventually we went with the cheap and cheerful "bags o defense insps" to finish him off.

First time I died I could probably have used a wakie, but given the fact he was standing on my head I figured it probably wasn't a good idea. Wakies come with a Stun. Sure you can pop a Breakfree too but you've still got little health, a tiny amount of End and no shields up. Only my Warshade generally bothers with the in combat Wakie -&gt; Breakfree -&gt; Blue -&gt; Stygian Circle trick.

The encounter was no less challanging, and defeat was no less bitter (especially the first one, that really stung) because of any difference in new and old debt.

There needs to be an incentive to improve your play style and debt worked well. If you where a permanant faceplanter then debt should have encouraged you to not faceplant as much, if you didnt want it. then try not to die or over aggro, know your limits and run if need be.

Death in COx has no meaning any more there is no fear in perishing. There needs to be a penatly in dying, If have debt its normally cleared in 2- 3mobs now, it comes and goes so quick no one even notices it anymore

When first started debt made me not want to die, but now i dont care. I die and i know my debt be gone in a few kills.

So is no fear of debt any more or shouldnt be. But this is wrong, folks should be afriad to faceplant and the penatly should be servere enough to encourage folks to try and make then not die adn to improve thier staying alive skills.

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not having any wakies was the reason the 3 inspi feature was implemented. So people can use 3 of their inspis to make a wakey or anything else they might need.



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I only ever really use wakeys and end insps now. might pop another random one if i've full insps and waiting on a blue or wakey though. okay, and health ones, sometimes.

death is very much a defeat for me. playing a MM lately and even in a team with plenty of rezability I hate dying because it means another 5 minutes of summoning and upgrading. the run from the hospital is a pain at lower lvls too, particularly if you're starting a toon with a sewer run (of course usually by the time anyone dies in those the majority of mobs they'll run into on the way back to the team will con grey anyway) or if you're travel power-less and in a big area where the mish will inevitably be at the farther point from the hosp.

maybe I'm a rubbish player, or maybe it's just I'm a casual player (I'm sure there are those who'd say that is the same thing-bah humbug to you!) but I don't have a huge problem with minimal debt being awarded for deaths. However, I would prefer that they increased it again if the alternative is some kind of debuffing after a rez.

Fully agreed.. debt made people complain... debt made people at points hate their playstyle and or the game...

But it made people think about what they where doing. Only the cowards ran away from a fight after a few kills. But that also says what some are trying to tell here.. people where afraid of debt... So they tried to avoid it... so they at least tried to stay alive.

That made better players...

how about a temporary title under your name that says "Just Died" or "Back from the Dead" or something, which can't be hidden, and stays there for a half hour or something? Thus you could incur mockery, which is surely worse than simply making you play longer?

A counter that increments with each death and raises the debt level incrementally (sort of the opposite to Damnz' idea).

First time you die you get 50% of the current debt, after all mistakes do happen. And providing you don't die for say an &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; thats all you get.

Next death within that &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt;, earns you full current debt.

Die three times within one &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; and you gain 2x debt for the third death...

And so on, counter resets one &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; after last death.

&lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; = An hour or similar.

Debt is less for those who die by mistake once, but if you continue to make the same mistakes you get more incremental debt. I'd also double or triple the debt cap.

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A counter that increments with each death and raises the debt level incrementally (sort of the opposite to Damnz' idea).

First time you die you get 50% of the current debt, after all mistakes do happen. And providing you don't die for say an &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; thats all you get.

Next death within that &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt;, earns you full current debt.

Die three times within one &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; and you gain 2x debt for the third death...

And so on, counter resets one &lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; after last death.

&lt;insert arbitrary time&gt; = An hour or similar.

Debt is less for those who die by mistake once, but if you continue to make the same mistakes you get more incremental debt. I'd also double or triple the debt cap.

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I like that idea, and here's why:

Those who play to avoid death aren't punished for the occasion accidental death.

The Terminaly Enthuiastic get a reason to calm the [Bad Word] down.

Badge hunters can accrue lots of debt fast = less grind.

Part of the problem here is, death can sometimes be good.... think of it as making a sacrifice for the good of the team. such powers as vengence from the leadership pool and the warshade one (Don't remember the name) The buff off the corpse of a team mate cand turn the tide of a loosing battle.

Plus chancing to a bigger consequence of dying would kill my inferno&gt;self destruct&gt;RotP atack chain... admitedly, i don't use it much, it is more of an emergency chain in the case of immenant team wipes! i take the debt and deal a whopping blow to the mobs, alowwing a team mate to fire off vengence to buff the surviving team members then rise to continu on fighting.... definatly usefull if i'm nearly out of health/end as i raise with more then i self destructed with!

Also, i'd like to remind you, it's only instance debt that has decressed, street mob debt is a lot higher, and being sent into +1/+2 areas of a zone on a street hunt in a arc can be a right pain, especially in areas with no hosital like striga.

Oh, and i much prefer CoX's debt system over FFXI's xp loss/delevel system!

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

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Plus chancing to a bigger consequence of dying would kill my inferno&gt;self destruct&gt;RotP atack chain... admitedly, i don't use it much, it is more of an emergency chain in the case of immenant team wipes! i take the debt and deal a whopping blow to the mobs, alowwing a team mate to fire off vengence to buff the surviving team members then rise to continu on fighting.... definatly usefull if i'm nearly out of health/end as i raise with more then i self destructed with!

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Self destruct doesn't give debt currently so you're chain is safe.

I know SD don't give debt, but putting in harsher punishments for death like some have sugeste in this thread would make that chain less apealing!

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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.

so it's gone?.....yay

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Redside, debt badges are a potential consequence of the 10-million-points-of-damage-taken badge required for the Born in Battle accolade, which AFAIK is farmed by practically everyone who wants it —*its VERY difficult to take that much damage via normal 1-50 play; my Level 50 WP brute is currently at 1.25 mill damage taken, for example.

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Not farming it and my Corruptor, created back in I6 is less than 900K points away from getting it... it is very, very, very, very, very, very, very slow going. I'm just glad the Devs don't want us to grind for badges like they stated as reason for removing most of them from AE.



Gee, I almost managed to maintain a straight face while typing that. Almost.

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Redside, debt badges are a potential consequence of the 10-million-points-of-damage-taken badge required for the Born in Battle accolade, which AFAIK is farmed by practically everyone who wants it —*its VERY difficult to take that much damage via normal 1-50 play; my Level 50 WP brute is currently at 1.25 mill damage taken, for example.

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Not farming it and my Corruptor, created back in I6 is less than 900K points away from getting it... it is very, very, very, very, very, very, very slow going. I'm just glad the Devs don't want us to grind for badges like they stated as reason for removing most of them from AE.



Gee, I almost managed to maintain a straight face while typing that. Almost.

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Liz is a toon that I play frequantly for over three years now. That brought me to 55% of this badge. Getting damage on a mastermind which is be origin build to not get shot at all....

Now I am fed up with it... and I started farming the damage points. She has however purples etc on her. So it is not easy getting the right damage that counts towards this.

Took me 6 complete nights of gaining damage and a few days... Just resting in front of a nemesis with fire and lethal. Still not have it.. 0,5% to go.

This badge is needed for an accolade! One that gives a strong power.

Another is the Arson badge. Also needed for a power accolade. Only to be found as side mission in a mayhems. And if any team member touches one of the fire bombs the whole action doesnt count towards the badge either. Very hard to get.

These are things that made it again clear to me that heroes have it easier.

I noticed that too the oter day when comparing the accolade powers available to my main Hero and my main Villain. Compared to the Villain accolades, the Villain ones are a lot harder/longer to get.

I don't particularly want 'like for like' powers/accolades but having similar accolades with attainability in the same ballpark would be a decent idea.

It will be interesting to see how they "translate" badges in GR, because I agree, villain accolades are somewhat "harder" - I rarely bother nowadays, except occational +hp +end ones. Like everything else, it's just a tad harder for villains!

As for debt pretty much gone (99 out of 100 deaths at least)... Well, It's just another grind/pl tool, just like MA, the soon-to-bee diff settings etc. I tell you, the devs WANTS us to grrriind! Yes, they dooo!

However it does encourage PuGs. Do you remember back in time when people just left the team without a word because they got some debt? TFs could be a nightmare in PUGs, especially if you had some blasters invited!

...on the other hand, I have a nice set of globals nowadays, and still prefer non-pugs. One or two "unknown" factors make it interesting and is a good way of getting to know players, but I stick to the "know at least four in the team" rule.

What I do miss, and few will agree, is some sort of punishment for lvl 50s. Once you're in a lvl 50 team, there's always a rez'er or two, or you can "make" awakens. Unless it's a team-whipe death is just a welcome "getting a drink" sort of break, almost welcome at times!

Eye of the Magus is no picnic if you don't plan on farming to be fair, at least you can go afk on damage farms lol

On my first play through to 50, debt taught me that my Ar/Dev blaster was not allowed to level as fast as other people.

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Do you remember back in time when people just left the team without a word because they got some debt? TFs could be a nightmare in PUGs, especially if you had some blasters invited

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*holds hands up*

I am VERY guilty of this and a few people on these boards will agree/shout at me because of it.

Now i aint against death/debt/whatever but when its just impossible and your team is so bad you know its never going to work then i do just quit. Of course another factor is if im lagging so bad [does happen now and then] that i can barely move. If im annoyed i ignore all "loyalties" and think sod it im going out

Though if the train wreck teams are FUN then i dont care about the debt, make death fun and i'll die all the time!