Was wondering when we'll see this again.
Been discussed many times before and the verdict is. No, not gonna happen. Devs said it on numerous occassions in the past. Sorry :|
Also /unsigned
The rationale - which I agree with - is that if Fitness (for which, read "Stamina") was an inherent, End management would be such a minor issue that you might as well drop the entire stat from the game.
The good. Everybody got the same problem.
The bad. Yes it is anoying.
My fear. A temp buyable power to replace the need for stamina. Lets hope that power never comes.
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End management would be such a minor issue that you might as well drop the entire stat from the game.
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^^ This
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Also /unsigned
The rationale - which I agree with - is that if Fitness (for which, read "Stamina") was an inherent, End management would be such a minor issue that you might as well drop the entire stat from the game.
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I disagree, stamina helps with endurance, it doesn't allow you to never look at your blue bar again.
I think something should be done about endurance at low levels though.
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Also /unsigned
The rationale - which I agree with - is that if Fitness (for which, read "Stamina") was an inherent, End management would be such a minor issue that you might as well drop the entire stat from the game.
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I disagree, stamina helps with endurance, it doesn't allow you to never look at your blue bar again.
I think something should be done about endurance at low levels though.
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Basically this. Its still something to keep an eye on throughtout the game, but thats WITH Stamina...If you tried to play certain builds at higher levels without it, solo would be either ludicrously slow, or impossible.
Im not suggesting 'do away with endurance', as that slightly defeats...well, a LOT of things...
But I really, really hate having to have three powers just to be 'in the game', so to speak. Am I the only one that finds that really irritating? And the recent I13 changes to do with 'unused' powers...ever wonder why some of them are unused? probably a lot because people 'might' pick them, but won't as they need to find room for the fitness trio.
If not making it an inherent, then looking at endurance balancing would be really really welcome.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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If you tried to play certain builds at higher levels without it, solo would be either ludicrously slow, or impossible.
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And there's your issue with making it inherent: some builds.
For some builds, it would reduce stamina management to totally unimportant. Then you'd have complaints about those builds.
Edit: They could make things easier at low level with an endurance reduction bonus like the Accuracy one that wears off over a few levels, I guess.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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Also /unsigned
The rationale - which I agree with - is that if Fitness (for which, read "Stamina") was an inherent, End management would be such a minor issue that you might as well drop the entire stat from the game.
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I disagree, stamina helps with endurance, it doesn't allow you to never look at your blue bar again.
I think something should be done about endurance at low levels though.
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Endurance at low levels affects different characters in different ways. Also, lower level characters have a better chance of hitting the enemy so, really, should be using less endurance due to more accurate attacks.
I can understand the frustration with the OPs experience of Stamina. However if four powers suddenly disappear from the game (i.e. become inherent) then there would be less point in choosing different builds of powersets because you're more likely to be able to take all of your Primary and Secondary powers.
I also think this would make the game far too easy. Endurance is easily countered by teaming and to make everyone less reliant on endurance would, imo, promote soloing. This would be a shame.
To be honest, ever since the temp travel powers have been available from Safeguards and Mayhems, I tend to pick the powers I want (to test them out) and then respec into a 'regular' build (with Travel and usually Fitness) later. And there's nothing stopping someone from picking whatever powers they want even if the respec comes after level 24 (I have the bonus of a vet respec).
Looking at the need for Stamina in nearly every build, doesn't this suggest a certain balance problem?
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Looking at the need for Stamina in nearly every build, doesn't this suggest a certain balance problem?
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What need for stamina in nearly every build?
You don't 'need' to take stamina on most builds, some do which is why its a pool and not an inherent.
All builds can do without stamina... The game has enhancements for that. Just slot more endurance reductions. Not many people slot 2 or more. That is because they have stamina.
Ergo... You are balancing Enhance slots vs. Power slots.
Aside of that.... Without the three powers of fitness you would be able to take all powers from primary and secondary... Then the diversity would be less. You have to pick what you want to use. Have to be forced to choose.
Yes... I have a toon without fitness. And he works out fine. Although soloying can be a problem. I just slotted 2 endurance reductions on the major drainers.
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I dont think every build need Stamina, but I do think most builds are annoying without it.
Wouldn't like to see Stamina as an inherent, but I'd like to see some pool that offered some similar power, maybe a 5% base recovery instead of the 10% Stamina gives in order to have more options, maybe make it the second power choice instead of the third, just a thought.
I Kind of agree there are builds out there that stamina is pretty much mandatory but i wouldn't like to see stamina removed from the game personally
I would like to see them once again go over all the sets and look at there end usage. No one can convince me that that the protection Dark armour offers is worth its horrendus end cost. The same go's for attack sets like mace and axe there high(ish) end cost combined with there well resisted damage types makes them end hogs. so please devs take a look at the end use of powers once again.
Also how about having end recovery and hp recovery as slot-able powers from the get go? They would start at the base rate for the AT and could be slotted as a normal power effectively you would have two versions of health and stamina a inherent from lvl 1 version that you can slot to gain a small boost to you recovery rates and then there would be the power pool version that you can take at the cost of a power to gain more recovery.
This would mean builds that currently don't need stamina would be unaffected, builds that require that little endurance boost could slot there inherent stamina and builds that seem to hemorrhage endurance with every attack can slot both there inherent stamina and take the pool power and slot that.
/unsigned
Much as I understand the concern, hell doing this would make things so much easier, it is going too far.
At the moment you can compensate for high cost powers by slotting to reduce End cost. Yes it means you have to compromise the rest of your slotting but that's the payoff. Expensive and hard hitting or cheap and spammable?
On top of that improved recovery only goes so far, actually slotting in something that reduces the cost of all those powers being spammed by ~33% is theoretically more effective. For example, my Night Widow devoured Endurance, even after getting Stamina she would still go through blues at a rapid rate. Once I'd slotted her attacks with some End cost reduction (in the form of Set IOS) the issue was largely solved. My young Tri-Form PB is helping me to look at this even more closely as I can only take advantage of Stamina roughly 1/3 of the time.
I know not everyone has bought into IOs, even three issues on. However Stamina isn't the panacea, making it an inherent certainly isn't. Maybe they need a third look at power costs but given that we can slot to reduce the costs of powers and Set IOs allow us to even mitigate most, if not all, of the effect payoff we had to consider with slotting SOs, I find it unlikely that things will change as we already have the tools to manage Endurance ourselves.
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On top of that improved recovery only goes so far, actually slotting in something that reduces the cost of all those powers being spammed by ~33% is theoretically more effective.
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This is part of the whole "I won't waste slots on boring stuff like accuracy and endurance." People hated ED mostly, I think, because they couldn't 6-slot their attacks for damage and get meganumbers any more. (Okay, that was a bit cynical, but I remember the posts along those lines.)
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Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Agreed that Stamina is a pain to take, for all the above reasons ( missing three powers before 20 is really annoying )
More annoying is that you don't see much benefit from swift/hurdle at lower levels pre-slotting either.
However, for all the above reasons we can't take fitness out of the game.
Proposal :
Split fitness into 2 pools ( and pls ignore naming conventions, can't think of cool names atm )
1st pool : Athletics : This has swift, hurdle, super-swift, super-hurdle
Swift and hurdle remain unchanged. The super versions are a second toggle that basically doubles-up for you.
2nd pool : Fitness : Stamina-1, Stamina-2, health-1, health-2
Each of these is half the current bonus. Stamina-1 is 15%, Stamina-2 another 15%
So .. with the above.
If you want just stamina, you lose two slots ( remember, no bonus to travel powers etc here, hence 2 not 3 ) AND you see an immediate benefit when you take Stamina-1 at lvl 14 or whatever. To achieve the 30% you need to take stamina-2 as well at lvl 20.
Cons: You'll have to slot stamina twice to get the same effect. ( Possibly counteract with making them both 17.5% instead of 15% ?? )
Pros: No need to take inherent travel power if you don't want to ( but you can if you want ). Immediate bonus from first tier stamina or health. Only use two slots if you want to.
Fahie
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Swift and hurdle remain unchanged. The super versions are a second toggle that basically doubles-up for you.
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This I don't like because I've not got two toggles to turn on instead of one (Sprint), but it would likely give me more road speed if I could spare the power choice. Most people would never take the tier 3/4 powers.
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Fitness : Stamina-1, Stamina-2, health-1, health-2
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Okay, you've forced anyone trying to maximize regen to take all four of this set for starters. stamina/health/stamina/health would be fairer, and you still wouldn't have to use more than two power slots to get both stamina powers.
And it's still all so people can avoid slotting powers with end reds really.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
The biggest problem with Stamina is that people feel they need or should get it at 20 without fail.
You don't, pick it up at 22, or 26, or 35.
Hell you can get travel power temps via Mayhem/Safeguard missions now so why drop 2x powers to get a Travel early on? That's two possible power choices most people would say were needed a few issues ago right there that can be pushed back a bit without much hassle. Wouldn't doing that help get Stamina early if you want to?
Your conceptions demand you sacrifice power choices for Stamina at an early level, the game does not.
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Swift and hurdle remain unchanged. The super versions are a second toggle that basically doubles-up for you.
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This I don't like because I've not got two toggles to turn on instead of one (Sprint), but it would likely give me more road speed if I could spare the power choice. Most people would never take the tier 3/4 powers.
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My bad ... I did mean inherent not toggle
And yes, I don't imagine many people would, but with no suppression it could be useful for some builds.
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Fitness : Stamina-1, Stamina-2, health-1, health-2
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Okay, you've forced anyone trying to maximize regen to take all four of this set for starters. stamina/health/stamina/health would be fairer, and you still wouldn't have to use more than two power slots to get both stamina powers.
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Agreed ... sounds better to me.
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And it's still all so people can avoid slotting powers with end reds really.
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yep
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Swift and hurdle remain unchanged. The super versions are a second toggle that basically doubles-up for you.
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This I don't like because I've not got two toggles to turn on instead of one (Sprint), but it would likely give me more road speed if I could spare the power choice. Most people would never take the tier 3/4 powers.
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My bad ... I did mean inherent not toggle
And yes, I don't imagine many people would, but with no suppression it could be useful for some builds.
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Fitness : Stamina-1, Stamina-2, health-1, health-2
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Okay, you've forced anyone trying to maximize regen to take all four of this set for starters. stamina/health/stamina/health would be fairer, and you still wouldn't have to use more than two power slots to get both stamina powers.
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Agreed ... sounds better to me.
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And it's still all so people can avoid slotting powers with end reds really.
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yep
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So without slotting for End Red (which in the majority of powers only requires one at the most) what would your proposed additions be for the new slotting? Slot 4 damage? The diminished returns since ED mean that you're adding very little to your damage output.
Plus there's nothing really to stop anyone 4-slotting for damage now anyway.
I also think with the benefits of certain (and in some cases pretty cheap) IO sets giving boosted recovery AND boosted max endurance that proposing a Health 1/2 and Stamina 1/2 set would mean more powers people don't bother with.
There are also accolades and Safeguard/Mayhem temp power boosts for Endurance increase and, with all the resources available to hunters, these aren;t very difficult to obtain. They just require a bit of effort for a longer-term gain.
I'm against both propositions in the post - although I agree with the sentiment that it can be a pain, I agree more with Extremus's point of view that it is perception rather than actual reality which shapes the argument over Stamina.
As a side note, I immediately see the benefit of Swift and Hurdle whenever I take them.
I think you're missing the point, AP. Your sets and accolades aren't really available at low levels.
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Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Sorry, got a bit firey - just ignore me
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I think you're missing the point, AP. Your sets and accolades aren't really available at low levels.
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No are SO's or Common IO's.
Should lower levels also receive temporary Damage and Recharge buffs to go with the extra ToHit?
I dont know about anyone else, but, with the exception of the few characters I make without travel powers, I really hate the fitness pool. Not the powers, just having to find room in a build to slot three powers that, again with a few exceptions, you NEED to be able to have any real chance of keeping up.
At lvls 16, 18 and 20, id love to pick one of the many powers that I can get then, adding something cool, explosive or defensive to a build. Id rather NOT have to settle for an autopower simply so that I dont need to stop for an End Rest after every two mobs.
Am I the only one that thinks this is really, really annoying/stupid? Why not make sprint and hurdle inherents at lvl 6, health inherent at lvl 14, and stamina inherent at lvl 20? That way, no 'balance' is upset, and everyone can then spend three slots on other powers.
Verdict?