Make the Fitness Pool inherent

Um... Fahie's suggestion was a mechanism for getting some Stamina available below level 20.

I'm not actually saying that I agree with that. Just making the point. I don't generally find I have problems with endurance management at low levels.

If the objective is to provide some form of endurance management capability below 20, TOs do actually work, Fahie's idea would work, AP's comment, however, doesn't.

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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Make stamina without prerequisites besides level 20. That frees up 2 power slots for more fun powers

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[ QUOTE ]
All builds can do without stamina... The game has enhancements for that. Just slot more endurance reductions. Not many people slot 2 or more. That is because they have stamina.

Ergo... You are balancing Enhance slots vs. Power slots.

Aside of that.... Without the three powers of fitness you would be able to take all powers from primary and secondary... Then the diversity would be less. You have to pick what you want to use. Have to be forced to choose.

Yes... I have a toon without fitness. And he works out fine. Although soloying can be a problem. I just slotted 2 endurance reductions on the major drainers.

[/ QUOTE ] i have a challenge go make a dark armor, mastermind, sr, storm or a fire control for starters without stamina and see how fun they are. Stamina opens up a lot more combinations.

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Why do people think that Stamina is the only power in Fitness?

If I didnt have Hurdle I would go mad. Swift is a very nice power to have but not mandatory. Health is a must have on regen/many HP characters. Stamina is more or less needed on all possible combos. If you don't think so...you're playing too slow for me.

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Alright, I get the points made.
I still think, as other do apparently, that there is an issue with endurance.

Maybe making Fitness inherent or taking it away *is* not an option, or stupid. But it shouldnt be a *must*, not by a long shot. The Pool powers are there to add flavour to characters, not to straightjacket them. Stamina should make life easier, but not to the degree it is at the moment.

Its a call for a balance, more than anything else. It just doesnt feel right, at the moment. Looking at some of the replies, im not the only one. And im not saying 'make it easier' or implement it badly...hell, nothing should be implemented badly.
Still, thats one guys opinion

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[ QUOTE ]
Why do people think that Stamina is the only power in Fitness?

If I didnt have Hurdle I would go mad. Swift is a very nice power to have but not mandatory. Health is a must have on regen/many HP characters. Stamina is more or less needed on all possible combos. If you don't think so...you're playing too slow for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tripple slot swift/hurdle on some pvp characters so I completely see your point on those.

I normally only take health if I want to slot a numinas and miracle unique in there.

Fahie

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Swift is very useful in conjunction with Hover.

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I really should do something about this signature.

Dark armor is not working if you slot it with 3 end reduction??? Cause I guess it does. Lets see what the numbers are in Mid's...

This is a fast made build...

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1,4006
http://www.cohplanner.com/

test: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Broad Sword
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Slash Empty(A), Empty(3), Empty(7), Empty(21), Empty(36), Empty(37)
Level 1: Dark Embrace Empty(A), Empty(3), Empty(5), Empty(17), Empty(29)
Level 2: Slice Empty(A), Empty(7), Empty(15), Empty(19), Empty(36), Empty(37)
Level 4: Murky Cloud Empty(A), Empty(5), Empty(21), Empty(29), Empty(34)
Level 6: Build Up Empty(A), Empty(13), Empty(13)
Level 8: Air Superiority Empty(A), Empty(9), Empty(9), Empty(42), Empty(43), Empty(43)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield Empty(A), Empty(11), Empty(11), Empty(17), Empty(34)
Level 12: Confront Empty(A)
Level 14: Parry Empty(A), Empty(15), Empty(46), Empty(46), Empty(46)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration Empty(A), Empty(19)
Level 18: Fly Empty(A)
Level 20: Whirling Sword Empty(A), Empty(37)
Level 22: Cloak of Darkness Empty(A), Empty(23), Empty(23), Empty(40)
Level 24: Hack Empty(A), Empty(25), Empty(25), Empty(40), Empty(40)
Level 26: Disembowel Empty(A), Empty(27), Empty(27)
Level 28: Aid Other Empty(A), Empty(31), Empty(31), Empty(43), Empty(45)
Level 30: Aid Self Empty(A), Empty(31), Empty(34), Empty(45), Empty(45)
Level 32: Head Splitter Empty(A), Empty(33), Empty(33), Empty(33)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom Empty(A), Empty(36)
Level 38: Soul Transfer Empty(A), Empty(39), Empty(39), Empty(39)
Level 41: Conserve Power Empty(A), Empty(42), Empty(42)
Level 44: Resuscitate Empty(A)
Level 47: Focused Accuracy Empty(A), Empty(48), Empty(48), Empty(48), Empty(50)
Level 49: Energy Torrent Empty(A), Empty(50), Empty(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit



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its spends unslotted...
2,13/s While endRec = 1,67/s

Attacks is :
Slash 5,2
Slice 8,53
Build Up 5,2
Air Superiority 6,5
Disembowel 10,2
Head Splitter 13,5

That is a lot and unplayable...
but...

Conserve Power 90s of 119,2% extra recovery...

If I slot 2 end red on the attacks and 3 on the toggles that count and should be kept running the numbers end up on...

1,15/s While endRec = 1,67/s

While most used attacks are down at least 1/3 of end use. This is still a tight fit. But ress is over 35%, negative ress over 45%.

Dark Regeneration is not always on and Parry isn't either. They are life savers and should only be on when needed. If youre later on... go with it after Conserve Power.

Now this is with regular enhancements. Going over to IO's directly take the sets that with only two IO's give an +recovery rate.

Using single origin IO's instead of regular enhancements on the same places is not changing the numbers a lot...

1,13/s While endRec = 1,67/s



I guess if you really want you can make this work. You will have to go with a little less high damage output and a little less ressistance ofcourse.

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Advanced - Go back in time and witness the birth of a vampire. Follow her to key moments in her life in order to stop her! A story of intrigue, drama and horror! Blood & Violence... not recommend to solo!

I took Kat/DA to 35 without Stamina, and that was Pre-ED with the higher end costs and slow recharging Rest.

Use Inspirations people.

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[ QUOTE ]
Maybe making Fitness inherent or taking it away *is* not an option, or stupid. But it shouldnt be a *must*, not by a long shot. The Pool powers are there to add flavour to characters, not to straightjacket them. Stamina should make life easier, but not to the degree it is at the moment.


[/ QUOTE ]

See i have the opposite view on this. I see pool powers as hole fillers in that (obviously) they fill the holes in your character. No-one is (not even superheroes) are inherently perfect so to speak.

I agree that most if not all power combos do require stamina in the short term but a lot of combos could easily get along without it.

Warshades, regens, willpowers, stalkers, kinetics are just the ones off the top of my head that really dont need it. Whereas again other powersets like;

Dark armour, super reflexes, masterminds do (imo) NEED the stamina power due to the endurance hogs they are. But then thats the beauty of it isnt it, each powerset has a hole in it that the powerpools fill for us

Ok that doesnt explain what im trying to mean, will edit it once i can word it better if it doesnt make sense.

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[ QUOTE ]
stalkers really dont need it

[/ QUOTE ]Debatable, since the hit-and-run Stalker died out quite some time ago.
[ QUOTE ]
masterminds do (imo) NEED the stamina power due to the endurance hogs they are.

[/ QUOTE ]I did notice the (imo) there, but, really, not all MMs need it. Force Fields and Traps really don't. Dark, Storm and Poisons, sure. Not sure about Trick Arrow because it's relatively unplayed (note that when I say "relatively", it doesn't change a thing if one or two people barge in exclaiming that they do in fact play it) and I don't have personal experience with it, either.

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On top of that improved recovery only goes so far, actually slotting in something that reduces the cost of all those powers being spammed by ~33% is theoretically more effective.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is part of the whole "I won't waste slots on boring stuff like accuracy and endurance." People hated ED mostly, I think, because they couldn't 6-slot their attacks for damage and get meganumbers any more. (Okay, that was a bit cynical, but I remember the posts along those lines.)

[/ QUOTE ]


This

Personally I LOVE the Fitness Pool.

As has already been pointed out you don't need to take it (I usually do) but it also creates diversity.

Adding Swift is a great bonus that shouldn't be overlooked and Health too gives some significant advantages, especially when slotted right.

Diversity is the key and I cannot agree with this suggestion I'm afraid.

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My current main has all four powers, and Swift is two-slotted. Then again, she also has no travel power.

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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

See that list at the bottom? Yes, that one, the one with all my level 50's listed? FOUR characters from that list are Stamina-less. Mandatory? Must have? Not in the slightest! Keep it as an optional pool!

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Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief

Out of curiosity what 4 are staminaless and were they allwats staminaless or did you remove stamina at a later point?

Its all very well saying my build X is staminaless but what is that build a staminaless regen or willpower is a lot less inpressive than a staminaless Darka or stone armour.

Also just taking a look at that build liz and i think you make my point very well when you say "I guess if you really want you can make this work. You will have to go with a little less high damage output and a little less ressistance ofcourse. "

Why should dark be at a disadvantage strait out the bag? Its not really any better than any of the other armours yet its hamstrung by high endurance costs the same go's for stone. Now i realize that this partially dates back to when there powers were largly non stacking but there endurance usage should be brought into line with the other armours or they should be buffed to the point where they deserve the higher endurance costs.

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Four that are staminaless are Angel Terra, Qinetiq, Mae Hemme and Cupid's Sister. Fair enough that Kin might not be the best example of a staminaless build but for a Brute and a Defender that uses Hover in mission I get by surprisingly well. I do have Conserve Power on my TA/pointy sticks but I onnly really use it after EMP arrow.

They've never had Stamina. I struggled without it on my Angel I'll admit until 28 but I got by.

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Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief

How about make Stamina inherent BUT on a sliding scale: that is at lower level, you get less stamina; but as you level up, you get more stamina until it max itself at 50 (or whichever level is deemed high enough).

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Stamina helps toons regain end at a faster rate than they do without it so in effect is only generally in play in between mobs tho end gain difference in between attacks is generally minimal it does help a little. Try putting an end red in attacks rather than a 3rd damage enhancement then see if you still think fitness should be inherent

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[ QUOTE ]
How about make Stamina inherent BUT on a sliding scale: that is at lower level, you get less stamina; but as you level up, you get more stamina until it max itself at 50 (or whichever level is deemed high enough).

[/ QUOTE ]

The main thing that's wrong with that is that you actually tend to suffer from endurance problems more at lower levels, so your suggestion does nothing to actually aleviate why people want Stamina.

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Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.

Nonsense.

You assume the sliding scale starting at minus at lv1 and it moves at a linar fashion according to levels.

NO! I have not even specify how that sliding scale works.

You read me wrong and assume too much.

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[ QUOTE ]
Nonsense.

You assume the sliding scale starting at minus at lv1 and it moves at a linar fashion according to levels.

NO! I have not even specify how that sliding scale works.

You read me wrong and assume too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, not to be funny, but you really need to explain yourself better then. Because I read it the same way as Ravenswing.

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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator

[ QUOTE ]
Stamina helps toons regain end at a faster rate than they do without it so in effect is only generally in play in between mobs tho end gain difference in between attacks is generally minimal it does help a little. Try putting an end red in attacks rather than a 3rd damage enhancement then see if you still think fitness should be inherent

[/ QUOTE ]

I often do. And it doesnt help. Especially at lower levels, which is the biggest suffering point. And Stamina does help in fights, as the end bar is constantly refilling at a faster rate with stamina on. If they balance the endurace rates so that you still had to watch the bar, but not to the point where Stamina and the fitness pool was a *must* as it is now, would be ideal.
And lookee, threadomancy

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