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Only if you dont use taunt. Between reasonable use of taunt and gauntlet there is hardly a noticeable difference.
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Given that any tanker can equally use taunt and gauntlet (with stone at a disadvantage there), but WP basically has no effective taunt aura, it is inevitably behind. It may have enough, it may do well with skilled play, but there is no escaping that it is numerically behind in that area. This is most noticable on a large team, since most tankers will be able to grab a 16 mob spawn with the use of one power, ready for a blaster nuke, but the WP tanker can only grab 5 at a time with taunt, and 5 at a time with gauntlet. This won't get the team killed as long as they allow for that, but it will slow them down a few seconds.
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if there should be one tankimng primary that is superior, it should be invulnerability
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No tanking primary should be superior. This is a MMO, not a comic book. If one powerset is clearly superior to others, 90% of players will play that set.
I really should do something about this signature.
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That said there is plenty of -def in game that can actually have an Invuln at 0 def at times making them a resist set with a long recharge heal.
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Quite true. I'm reasonably confident that one of the things they are getting is -def resistance.
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It's not hard to turn a basic Invuln into a resistance set with a long recharge heal atm. With weave and combat jumps additional defense you have additional protection from being hit in the first place between the times of being seen and collecting mobs in an 8ft rad. This means that those with fight pool are going to go "Duh? I never had trouble with -def!".
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for an exact no net benefit to what shouldn't have a net benefit.
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There will be a net benefit if you have fewer than 10 mobs in the aoe, which is most of the time in my experience. Also against Psi and untyped damage. Also useful if you aint running Invince (more likely for a scrapper).
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A scrapper without invincible is a bottler 
. I doubt the benefit of the change will have a noticeable effect to the basic Invuln, but if you've built a certain way or regular get buffed in defense to certain levels then yep.
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WP is said to be better than Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ] Only for suvivability, it's much worse at holding aggro.
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Are you teaching me how to suck an egg? When everyone else probably understands I have been talking about survivability you go and talk about taunt control.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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"That said there is plenty of -def in game that can actually have an Invuln at 0 def at times making them a resist set with a long recharge heal."(bored to quote) that means that the reason to take the set is invincibility(the core of inv defense). It SHOULDN'T BE. ALL 9 powers(or, as in mos sets, 5 of the powers) must define the set, not 1. and no, temp inv is something 70% of defense sets have, its not "defining".
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Well done, you've completely lost me. What are you getting at? It's certainly a killer in my book for a basic Invuln depending on what enemies your facing. One thing leading to another or the fact that its not a good damage type to be getting hit by can make a difference. The difference shows up more when comparing how one tank can handle a certain group compared to another. When Invulns are played to its strengths against most enemies, especially S/L, -def isn't an issue but if you don't get to play to your strengths against certain enemies then it is an issue.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Only if you dont use taunt. Between reasonable use of taunt and gauntlet there is hardly a noticeable difference.
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Sorry to go off topic, but that's not true, I've seen many WP "tanks" (the expression "WP Tank" is similar to "Military Intelligence") spamming taunt and losing their aggro once a fire blaster or even a Spines scrapper dives in.
Back on topic, I agree that Invincibility conceals most of Inv weaknesses, but as has been said, any -def will reduce an Inv tank/scrapper to tears.
Being so fond of balance as Castle seems to be, I'm on the side that the "nerf" to Invincibility should be a minor tweak instead of changing it totally, then a few adjustments to compensate on passives and job done imho.
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WP is said to be better than Invuln.
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Only for suvivability, it's much worse at holding aggro.
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Only if you dont use taunt. Between reasonable use of taunt and gauntlet there is hardly a noticeable difference.
Which does make me wonder, because if there should be one tankimng primary that is superior, it should be invulnerability without question, simply because of its iconic connotation.
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Willpowers taunt aura is alright around decent players. Other auras being better than each other in different ways just means that they offer different flexibilities. I don't know about anyone else but I think differently playing alongside different types of tanks and even more differently depending on what enemies they are facing. If you want aggro kept by the tanker in your team you must allow for it. That means deciding when to attack basically. Just because a Dark Tank runs in, it doesn't mean its taunted anything, the whole death shroud can miss or at least need to tick. The game is full of people who swear they've stolen a taunted foe of a tanker but as we know what's taunted is taunted. With WP I am more likely to wait for a tight group and/or see enough effective gauntleting going on. It does have an edge on keeping gauntlet rate up when you think about it. I have been "sort of" tanking +4s with my WP scrapper lately, I say sort of as, with a bubbler and without my tank mindset there has been room to practice recoveries and truthfully I don't feel that WP is too bad to handle however getting to mobs earlier and spending sine initial gauntlet time before the team starts works better.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Are you teaching me how to suck an egg? When everyone else probably understands I have been talking about survivability you go and talk about taunt control.
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When comparing tanker sets one has to consider both suvivability and aggro control together. Both are important to how well a tanker can do it's job.
I really should do something about this signature.
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if there should be one tankimng primary that is superior, it should be invulnerability
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No tanking primary should be superior. This is a MMO, not a comic book. If one powerset is clearly superior to others, 90% of players will play that set.
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You may think that but it isnt the case and never was. In the first year or so of the game, there were disinctly superior sets but they weren't all jumped on disprortionately. Invulnerability, for one, was the most powerful Tanker primary but ther ewere plenty of other tanker AT sets out there.
In fact Tankers were and probably still are, the least used hero AT (apart from War+ Peace)off all. Yet the original manual implies quite strongly that Tankers are the most powerful AT. Certainly the most important. (big man on team,) People play what they want to play.
I'm doing it myself right now. A MA/ SR scrapper. Hardly the most effective Scrapper set but it's the concept I wanted.
It doesnt work the way you think it does.
Saying that, I never said it should be more powerful.
It's pretty universally agreed that, across the board, Will power exceeds Invul. I was saying that's strange because IF the devs wanted one Tanker primary to exceed the others it ought to be Invul.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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In the first year or so of the game, there were disinctly superior sets but they weren't all jumped on disprortionately.
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Yes. There where. Thats why 90% of scrappers where /regen. In fact there still sets that are overpowerd, and hence overplayed, and sets that are underplayed. This is unavoidable, but it is niether good or desirable. If a set is little played it represents a considirable waste of developer effort.
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It's pretty universally agreed that, across the board, Will power exceeds Invul.
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No, it isn't. As I already said, Ivun is much better than WP for aggro magagment. It also does better against burst damage.
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IF the devs wanted one Tanker primary to exceed the others
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Which they didn't, so your argument is falacious.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Are you teaching me how to suck an egg? When everyone else probably understands I have been talking about survivability you go and talk about taunt control.
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When comparing tanker sets one has to consider both suvivability and aggro control together. Both are important to how well a tanker can do it's job.
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There are only 6 people who come to this part of the forums and they all know that you can gain and give survivability through taunt control already..and so I'll take that as a yes you are teaching me how to suck an egg! Then, in that case: My SR with confront can actually be better than "any" tauntless Icetank "at times"*. So swallow your words and get taunt! 
*If one was to refute this, they'd show a lack of mental gymnastics. 
I am in a good mood today, I just tried that Self Destruction power out and it's mad!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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From start to finish, willpower is a much more attractive and player friendly set. Even down to the fact its glowy toggles are much more subdued than Invuls Disco ball effects.
[/ QUOTE ]Most players like shiny things you know.
I like showy toggles. I find both invun and WP to subdued, that one of the reasons I like my Ice tank.
I really should do something about this signature.
I like showy toggles as long as they make sense. Bright red electricity is great, icecubes surrounding you are great. I don't understand why being impervious (read: highly resistant) to bullets would make you shine like a streetlight though.
So I RP my Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker as Sonic Aura/Sonic Melee. Problem solved.
Personally i think any buff to invul is good, nevermind 5% is not enough, its a buff not a debuff.
If people think they underperform i suggest they take a look at there build.
Invul still is the best tanking set there is, willpower vs anything other than psi, smashing or lethal, isnt a tank its a glorified regen scrapper.
EDIT: also id choose a glorified disco ball any day to a glowing yellow head, its much easier to get a costume to match up with invul without making a canary coloured suit.
Not that theres anything wrong with canary yellow suits, just not my style
Any type of tanker can perform badly around effects that cripple them. Ofc people choose powers to get around the problems and some are funny about getting a certain defender for something.
Played right or with due caution, tanks can do their jobs, but there are times when, what it is you'd of rather done and actually got to do are two different things. Each tanker has strengths and weaknesses that some people rather overcome tactfully rather than dropping 3 fun powers (that complete their concept) for non fun powers that fix things.
When you have to tactfully go about things to succeed it doesn't help that some people in the team may prevent what it is you try to do for yours and their survivability and leave you/them in a compromised state as a result.
The changes to Invulnerability are more for those moments when you can't play to an Invulns strengths. I don't myself have a history of asking for Invulnerability to be fixed. It's because of reading combat attributes as I play, that certain things are 'highlighted' and so I am all for it.
I think changes can be made if Castle was to be so keen, so that when played to ones strengths an Invuln can feel the same as it is now, but at the same time, when it can't be played to its strengths Invulns can be more survivable than it is now. I say feel as what will be, would only lead to more survivability.
Before Willpower came out live and so using numbers on test it was already picked out as overall more survivable than Invulnerability, now plenty of players say the same after playing both. Meanwhile the Invulns passives are unattractive - less so to me as I stack my build with what is common to find other people in the team having to offer - but the proposed possibilities to make them more attractive would help bridge the gaps in multiple senses.
I do think Temp Protection could do with being more attractive too, Firetanks being a totally resistant set gets hit by every single secondary effect in its direction near enough, that got mentioned in the process and hopefully that'll happen too.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Fire tanks have a kill things quicker aid to suvival. But it wouldn't hurt the passive to be a little more interesting.
The equivelent Ice Tank power gives slow resistance. It still aint brilliant, but its something.
I really should do something about this signature.
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The equivelent Ice Tank power gives slow resistance. It still aint brilliant, but its something.
[/ QUOTE ]And takes the Steadfast global 3% def IO... Just saying. Still not brilliant, of course.
Yeah, that's why I have it. It's only one of two Ice powers that can take res sets.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Invulnerability
Invulnerability has a few issues, mainly stemming from lack of special resistances and weak power choices. Here are the changes that are being made:
* Unyielding: We removed the Defence Debuff from this power. While we still believe it fits thematically, the impact on low level characters was more severe than desired.
* Invincibility: Reduce per target Defence Buff to from scale 0.15 to scale 0.1. The overall result of this and the Unyielding change is, if you have the maximum number of targets in this powers radius, you have the same protection as from Issue 12. However, if you have fewer targets, your net defence is higher.
* Resist Physical Damage: Added 25% Defence Debuff Resistance. Increased damage resistance scale from 0.75 to 1.00.
* Tough Hide: Added 25% Defence Debuff Resistance.
* Resist Energies: Added 25% Endurance Debuff Resistance. Increased damage resistance scale from 0.75 to 1.00.
* Resist Elements: Added 20% Movement Slow Resistance. Increased damage resistance scale from 0.75 to 1.00.
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I really had given up the ghost on seeing the passives improve in resist. Didn't you?
I mean lets face it, from the time it was reduced to its current levels people, including me, had expressed that they felt it was too low but in all that time, I considered that it was never going to change because of however they see things as balanced. It was a long time ago. It looks okay now don't it?
This in particular looks okay to me: "Added 25% Endurance Debuff Resistance."
I'd of rather 25% resistance to slows to tidy it up matching the end drain.
I would of preferred some resistance to fear as part of the res energy passive but thinking about it fear is probably is classed as psionics..so I guess not. I would of also liked to see Res elements resist -recharge too but that was if we were without any increase in passive resistance.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I like that I now get 50% Deff Debuff res without changing my build. Its just straight away bonus
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
The increase in passive resistance does seem to have been balanced by the Invincibility nerf, wich works out as a reduction in maximum defense by 7% unslotted/ 11% slotted, wich is rather more than the +5% from Unyealding.
I really should do something about this signature.
2 Questions,
How did you come to that Praf?
..And for anyone else, anyone without Resist Elements I wonder if Elements looks attractive enough to get or although better still skippable.
Movement Slows, rare on me, its not often I would be found caught in say Quicksand, miles from hitting anything doing the Baywatch run. Given a choice between bringing an Earth Thorn Caster to me through taunt and hide or me standing out like a sore thumb 44ft away, in quicksand, running on the spot while a ton of Behemoths Flame me at my lowest def due to none in melee and from less of it through quicksand..I'd take the former, as its quicker, less faffing and footstomps are quick to go.
I guess that question should have scrappers in mind. I think the extra resist in the passives would make their passives less silly. Often even though you resisted 5% you'd still be dead.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Invince, as it is now, give a maximum of def of 1.5*14=21% unslotted. Because of ED, slotting caps at about 57%. So slotted invince caps at 33%. After this change, Invince will cap at 14%/22%.
I really should do something about this signature.
[u]My Tanker before changes: [u]
(everything except Resist Elements from INV, plus Tough + Weave)
+ 90.14% Resistance to Smashing (capped at 90%)
+ 90.14% Resistance to Lethal (capped at 90%)
+ 27.6% Resistance to Energy
+ 27.6% Resistance to Negative
+ 19.4% Resistance to Fire
+ 19.4% Resistance to Cold
+ 4.3% Resistance to Psi
+ 9.9% Defence to Melee/Ranged/AoE/Psi
+ 49.6% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 10 foes in Invincibility)
+ 44.9% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 8 Foes in Invincibility)
+ 37.7% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 5 Foes in Invincibility)
+ 32.9% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 3 Foes in Invincibility)
+ 28.1% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 1 Foe in Invincibility)
[u]My Tanker after changes: [u]
(everything except Resist Elements from INV, plus Tough + Weave)
+ 92.53% Resistance to Smashing (capped at 90%)
+ 92.53% Resistance to Lethal (capped at 90%)
+ 30.00% Resistance to Energy
+ 30.00% Resistance to Negative
+ 19.4% Resistance to Fire
+ 19.4% Resistance to Cold
+ 4.3% Resistance to Psi
+ 50% Defence Debuff Resistance
+ 25% Endurance Drain/Recovery Debuff Protection
+ 14.9% Defence to Melee/Ranged/AoE/Psi
+ 46.7% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 10 foes in Invincibility)
+ 43.5% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 8 Foes in Invincibility)
+ 38.7% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 5 Foes in Invincibility)
+ 35.5% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 3 Foes in Invincibility)
+ 32.3% Defence to S/L/E/N/F/C (with 1 Foe in Invincibility)
In other words, the "old" INV had more defence when you have above 6 foes in range of Invincibility, the "new" INV has more defence up to and including 6 foes in range of Invincibility. Given that Invincibility has a radius of only 8 feet and I personally have trouble fitting more than 5-6 foes in it even when I'm herding "skinnier" mobs... I think we're better off...
The +25% Endurance Debuff resistance and 50% defense debuff resistance is icing. +25% isn't going to make that much difference when fighting Carnies or Lord Recluse, but the Defence Debuff Resistance is very nice when fighting foes that use swords such as Romans, and the extra 5% global Defence will help a good bit against Psionic and Ranged attacks.
I'm liking the changes. I don't think Resist Energies is quite into "unskippable" territory yet, but I'd rank it fairly closely behind RPD and Tough Hide now, and I personally would rather take it than "Conserve Energy". Resist Elements however is still completely skippable. Fire/Cold damage is rare in PVE... and it just resists movement speed debuffs NOT recharge debuffs, which are negligable if you've got the Jump travel pool.
You can't jump in KoA caltrops.
I really should do something about this signature.
And yet my Invuln scrapper doesn't have anything from Fighting Pool or anything from medicine pool and still does OK? (I know this is the tanker forum!)
Sure, these things are useful and can increase your survivability if you don't want to stop between mobs but I'd say they're certainly not mandatory. Besides GDm was done to make teaming with buff characters far more appeailing. Sure an Invuln tank can manage a mob without buffs? (Some enemy types not withstanding of course!)
Defiant 50's
Many and varied!
@Miss Chief