I think he does.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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A high 'conning' enemy does more dmg to you if that is a truth then has Defence not gained an advantage on Res or was the same scalic balance applied.
[/ QUOTE ]You do realise that the enemy is also going to deal more damage to a def-based character, right?
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In the same way a res based charecter would be effected by increased to hit, I'm pretty sure that was my assumtion yes.
Okay let me run that question by you again
Defense=To hit based mitigation therefore as To hit scales Def now scales to compensate.
Resistance=Dmg based mitigation so AS DMG SCALES does resistance also scale to compensate or has the application of this balancing equation to defence actually reduced resistance abilities in a like for like comparison?
It (Resistance) scales... kinds. If ToHit goes up and Def doesn't then you get more % damage.
If they both go up equally, you get the same % damage.
If damage goes up and Res stays the same, you still take the same % of damage.
Increased damage means more actual damage to both parties, but the same % damage to both.
Increased ToHit means more % damage for both.
Basically, Res doesn't need to scale, since the % of damage mitigated is always the same. Yes, they will be taking more damage from higher enemies, since they hit for more. However, so are Defense sets, since the hits that still get through, hurt more.
My logic isn't the best at times, but I hope this helps.
@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
No, resistance doesn't scale, it doesn't need to. Say a even con mob does 100 points of damage, and has an accuracy multiplyer of 1.0, and a +1 mob does 110 points of damage, with an accuracy multiplier of 1.1. Imagine you have resistance of 50%, and no def. Your avarage damage per attack from the even con is reduced to 100*1.0*(0.5-0.0)*0.5 = 25 points. Against the +1 mob, your avarage damage is 110*1.1*(0.5-0.0)*0.5 = 30.25 points.
Now, imagine you have 25% def and zero resistance. Against the same even con mob your avarage damage is 100*1.0*(0.5-0.25)*1.0 = 25 points. Against the +1 mob you take an avarage of 110*1.1*(0.5-0.25)*1.0 = 30.25 points.
So each 1% def offers the same damage mitigation as 2% resistance, irespective of the relative level or rank of the mob.
I suggest you reread Arcanaville's article, and look at the examples.
I really should do something about this signature.
The attack mechanics are explained at ParagonWiki . Higher level enemies will initially get Accuracy boni rather than ToHit boni. This is true up to +5. After that, they gain ToHit.
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Defense=To hit based mitigation therefore as To hit scales Def now scales to compensate.
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I am uncertain what you mean by this; we might be using different concepts of what ToHit is. In any event, if you are fighting one opponent and the opponent gains a ToHit bonus the effect will be identical to an unresisted Defense debuff applied to you. Depending on the opponents accuracy this can then have a proportionally larger effect on the final chance for the opponent to hit you. Players can often have 95% extra accuracy, so ToHit/Defense buffs/debuffs in PvP are rather potent. Higher rank enemies in PvE, such as Archvillains, also have accuracy boni.
I'd like to point out that if your opponent has extra accuracy, the approximation "1 Def = 2 Res" is NOT true. Def will become more valuable, if the final tohit is within the caps.
All in all, I would recommend the ParagonWiki page. It has the details and the formulas you need.
Resistance values do not change depending on your opponent, except if specific powers buff/debuff you. However, as resistance always removes a percentage of the incoming damage the mitigation does scale in a sense. At 50% resistance an attack dealing 100 damage will be reduced to 50 damage. An attack dealing 150 damage will be reduced to 75 damage.
Ok I think I better understand the changes that where made now, The 'conning' scalar for to hit has changed places in the formula used so it better applies in an even way compared to resistance scaling which because it uses a simpler formula always applied.
Thanks for the help
I had it in my head that the world and his mum had already visited Paragon wiki and Red Tomax sites to look at other peoples findings.
But let me get this right with my child like mind..by reading information discovered by other people, it would make me a smarter player than someone whose fairly new to using the internet for city of heroes. I can safely assume that other people are underperforming without such knowledge and can use the word n00b on people.
If you think that, this is directed at anyone in particular it's not true. It's just a trend that I can generally see from looking from one direction out of two or three, with perhaps none of them being right with people. I may look like someone who does that myself or did, but it concerns me now.
There is still things to discover ingame for anyone who has the time I reckon, especially as there is definitely a formula without any real numbers filled in. Someone maybe the Le Verrier to some Couch Adams, and that person maybe the Couch Adams to some Galileo but at least one can call themselves a smart player for sure.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I had it in my head that the world and his mum had already visited Paragon wiki and Red Tomax sites to look at other peoples findings.
But let me get this right with my child like mind..by reading information discovered by other people, it would make me a smarter player than someone whose fairly new to using the internet for city of heroes. I can safely assume that other people are underperforming without such knowledge and can use the word n00b on people.
If you think that, this is directed at anyone in particular it's not true. It's just a trend that I can generally see from looking from one direction out of two or three, with perhaps none of them being right with people. I may look like someone who does that myself or did, but it concerns me now.
There is still things to discover ingame for anyone who has the time I reckon, especially as there is definitely a formula without any real numbers filled in. Someone maybe the Le Verrier to some Couch Adams, and that person maybe the Couch Adams to some Galileo but at least one can call themselves a smart player for sure.
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I just play the game. Dont have a clue about numbers, dont really understand sets the way ide like. I still dont understand why anyone would take a io at level 30 when its weaker than a SO. I dont understand that if i do take an IO at 30 and it scales up all the way to 50, its not as powerful as the actual IO designated to that level.
I have limitd time to play and choose to play rather than study figures (which i'm [censored] at anyway.)
This isnt aimed at you, Shannon. Its a general question:
Am I a noob? Is my money as good as an experienced number cruncher?
I dont count numbers, I judge the bottom line- what do those numbers give me?
I honestly believe that those that think numbers are the meaning of life in a game like this actually miss what really should be happening.
They play their part. But they should be the grounding and not the be all asnd end all for this game because, if you get all the numbers in the world right and people dont like the outcome, what you got?
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Wondering quite what that post was all about ?
if I enjoy numbercrunching and you dont well 'vive le diffrence' (Ok my french is awful sorry)
I was putting a narrow perspective on some people. I say narrow because there can be many ways to perceive someone by what they say and how they say it in ones mind. I think it's better to try and take what people say in a less literal way than one normally would and show some individual respect. Everyone is different and that's good. We all have our starting points and we all have our ways of wording things that can be easily misunderstood at times. Looking at peoples posts, their grammar, a wall of text, several quotes and many other things can make someone perceive what isn't ideally what's meant to be there.
Bottom line is the game can be simply about fun and the forums could be much friendlier from looking at how we word things before simply logging off and by trying to find alternative views on other peoples posts to gain the nicest one. On some peoples posts I have had to put fullstops and commas in to even try to begin to grasp it. XD
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Wondering quite what that post was all about ?
if I enjoy numbercrunching and you dont well 'vive le diffrence' (Ok my french is awful sorry)
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It's odd that you of all people ask this because I was indirectly defending you.
I read the thread where you asked why do devs bother with small fixes and saw how you got slated.
And here again, you have been condesended at to such an extent that it's quite discraceful. Well done to Shannon for putting a particularly snotty poster in their place.
My point is, your opinion is as valid and deserves as much time as anyone else. And noone deserves to be treated the way you have just because someone knows more about numbers (which should never be the be all anyway) and you're trying to grasp it or disagree with what they're saying.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
I think that what puzzled Alpine is he does understand it now, and has defended himself by proving it better than anyone else could.
I really should do something about this signature.
A wise man once theorized there should be a third degree to the concept of positive and negative reactions, specifically he was talking about the concept of YES/NO
Now the concept that he proposed was a third word with which to answer a question 'PO' is what he refered to it as.
So the system would go something like
Yes-I confirm
No-I deny
PO-While I am interested in what you are saying I need more information to make an accurate determination for myself. ie I reserve judgment but tell me more.
Having learnt of this a long time ago I find that I still find it useful in making decisions (Do I go round saying PO to people all the time, well no they just wouldn't understand me, but I do often then rephrase the concept into an understandable question)
I think what has caused the temprature to rise in this thread has been that Praf has misinterpretted my 'PO' like replies as 'NO' and become defense as he feels I'm questioning his validity, which is really not the case.
I thank those who felt the need to 'defend' me in this matter though I do feel somewhat that it was in a way unnecassery as I'm believe that I am well capable of holding my ground if necasery or retrearing if I believe I have more to gain by doing so.
But thanks again all I really have enjoyed our disscusions about the maths of tanking, though I reckon my brain is defentaly less agile than it used to be, and look forward to further interesting talks with you all.
*Note sorry can't remeber the name of the guy who came up with the 'PO' idea
I am open to thinking that despite the way things may/could of looked, that it was really, really, not intended. Anyway I have to hold my hand up to looking that way at some point (just some?)..wait whose innocent of this? 
No ones validity should ever be in question; you don't need numbers to be a good tanker; everyone likes to tank differently and people like different tankers (find different tankers good, the best) for different reasons. On these forums I guess we will have different principles, quirks or whatever. I could also play stupidly solid builds but certain things test me/interest me and as a result, I will intentionally rely on team work much more.
When/if they market this game more, new people will bring back old questions and more and more repeated history will surely ensue. Rather than unintentionally put them off or make them feel like they're put in stocks and fruited by an angry mob..I reckon we can try to out do each other on constructive replies and no I didn't go to hell and get given a second chance 
.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
All this phlosophy is going over my head. Can we get back to maths, I can cope with that! 
I really should do something about this signature.
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A wise man once theorized there should be a third degree to the concept of positive and negative reactions, specifically he was talking about the concept of YES/NO
Now the concept that he proposed was a third word with which to answer a question 'PO' is what he refered to it as.
So the system would go something like
Yes-I confirm
No-I deny
PO-While I am interested in what you are saying I need more information to make an accurate determination for myself. ie I reserve judgment but tell me more.
Having learnt of this a long time ago I find that I still find it useful in making decisions (Do I go round saying PO to people all the time, well no they just wouldn't understand me, but I do often then rephrase the concept into an understandable question)
I think what has caused the temprature to rise in this thread has been that Praf has misinterpretted my 'PO' like replies as 'NO' and become defense as he feels I'm questioning his validity, which is really not the case.
I thank those who felt the need to 'defend' me in this matter though I do feel somewhat that it was in a way unnecassery as I'm believe that I am well capable of holding my ground if necasery or retrearing if I believe I have more to gain by doing so.
But thanks again all I really have enjoyed our disscusions about the maths of tanking, though I reckon my brain is defentaly less agile than it used to be, and look forward to further interesting talks with you all.
*Note sorry can't remeber the name of the guy who came up with the 'PO' idea
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Eh?
Why didn't he just use "maybe"? Or "I'm not sure, let me check"
Isn't Po one of the Tellytubbies?
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All this phlosophy is going over my head. Can we get back to maths, I can cope with that!
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Praf you wordsmith you pls by all means write numbers. I do sometimes but it looks geeky and I have to delete it all.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I have about 4 toons that use inv/ or /inv.though none of them is 50, most are post-30s and one is post-40(44).
of these toons, none has failed me(i dont mean i never die, i mean that most tanks/scraps i see die as easily or easier).However, ALL these toons have multiple ways of surviving, not just the "big 3" inv powers of TI, Uny, and Invinc.2 have medicine pool, 1 has divine avalanche, other has fighting pool, most tanks have some forms of mezz, you know the drill.
That being said, I have some comments:
a)perhaps some would say i have lots of IOs due to inf transfers from my PvE toons, but i actually have a very good psionic resistance and defense.I might not be an anti-psi toon, but I can cope.
b)In PvE, non-S/L is nothing. I have capped defense due to invincibility,(thats why i mention PvE) and Tough Hide , lots of hp due to dull pain, and usually either stuns(to deal with non-S/L guys), or medicine pool(hard to hit me), or both.
c)In one of the toons I use the 2 passives.There was something I found interesting:
Energy/Elem resist, passives and Uny SLOTTED: 16% + 11%= 27%( with capped defense, its an ok number).
what players do:
player looks at the passives ON THEIR OWN:"i won't get this power, i might as well get pool powers or(worse) attacks" result: 27%-11%=16 % res.
player then looks at his elemental res:"dude, only 16%? why slot Unyielding then?I want my slots in attacks!"
result:16%-6%=10%.
total result: a DECENT (with capped defense build) resist of 27% becomes a non-existant resist of 10%.
conclusion: invulnerability, when min-maxed and IO'd, is a very good set, but you got to sacrifice stuff to use it in your build.As such, it is very hostile to new users.
suggestion:
a) A BRAVE NERF IN IVINCIBILITY. as long as this power is so powerful the devs will be really scared to buff the passives(i.e. buff PvP power by adding slow resist effects to them etc.)perhaps the bonus per-foe shouldn't be as high.
like in RttC, where most of the bonus comes from the first enemy.
Brave nerf? No, well! no..Post 40 is where Invulns are or should I say really begin to be challenged. That said there is plenty of -def in game that can actually have an Invuln at 0 def at times making them a resist set with a long recharge heal.
I like to look at the basic Invuln and compare it to a basic Ice rather than think of one with med pool or DA etc.
Castle could limit Invincible to 8 to make up for the -def being taken out of unyielding and give the figures a slight tweak, for an exact no net benefit to what shouldn't have a net benefit.
Passives with additional effects could counter the times when you want to play to your strengths as an Invuln but don't get to as players do generally prevent you from doing so. As a forumite said on US forums during those times, res to secondary effects on the passives would be beneficial. Both Invuln and Fire could do with sec effect resists to the passives without a doubt.
My 2 easiest tanks are Stone and Ice, coming from SR, Ice is in the bag easy. WP is said to be better than Invuln. DA probably needs CoF at Mag 3.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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That said there is plenty of -def in game that can actually have an Invuln at 0 def at times making them a resist set with a long recharge heal.
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Quite true. I'm reasonably confident that one of the things they are getting is -def resistance.
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for an exact no net benefit to what shouldn't have a net benefit.
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There will be a net benefit if you have fewer than 10 mobs in the aoe, which is most of the time in my experience. Also against Psi and untyped damage. Also useful if you aint running Invince (more likely for a scrapper).
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WP is said to be better than Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ] Only for suvivability, it's much worse at holding aggro.
I really should do something about this signature.
actually, i have even more WP than inv toons.
what i have found out is that when -def is not a factor, invincibility is "a ridiculously great power in an otherwise poor set".RttC is NOT as good as Invinc. the only difference is, since its not that good, the devs can buff the other powers.
right now, the weaknesses of inv are HIDDEN by invincibility.
the fact that a player MUST get:hasten for dull pain, aid other & self, possibly fighting pool for Weave stacked with tough hide and invinc( 24% defense with 0 mobs, 19% with debuff from Uny)states that invulerability, though imho not gimped for PvE, is in the very least "tricky" and restricting.
HOW can the devs fix it?with buffs in all the passives and the defdebuff going away?then in PvE it will be overpowered.
"That said there is plenty of -def in game that can actually have an Invuln at 0 def at times making them a resist set with a long recharge heal."(bored to quote) that means that the reason to take the set is invincibility(the core of inv defense). It SHOULDN'T BE. ALL 9 powers(or, as in mos sets, 5 of the powers) must define the set, not 1. and no, temp inv is something 70% of defense sets have, its not "defining".
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WP is said to be better than Invuln.
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Only for suvivability, it's much worse at holding aggro.
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Only if you dont use taunt. Between reasonable use of taunt and gauntlet there is hardly a noticeable difference.
Which does make me wonder, because if there should be one tankimng primary that is superior, it should be invulnerability without question, simply because of its iconic connotation.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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right now, the weaknesses of inv are HIDDEN by invincibility.
the fact that a player MUST get:hasten for dull pain, aid other & self, possibly fighting pool for Weave stacked with tough hide and invinc( 24% defense with 0 mobs, 19% with debuff from Uny)states that invulerability, though imho not gimped for PvE, is in the very least "tricky" and restricting.
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You forget stamina (and the two powers you have to take first) and the fact you use up a power pool that Willpower doesnt need to do. That alone gives Willpower a massive advantage.
From start to finish, willpower is a much more attractive and player friendly set. Even down to the fact its glowy toggles are much more subdued than Invuls Disco ball effects.
And that's coming from someone who has 4 invul alts.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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A high 'conning' enemy does more dmg to you if that is a truth then has Defence not gained an advantage on Res or was the same scalic balance applied.
[/ QUOTE ]You do realise that the enemy is also going to deal more damage to a def-based character, right?