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If you want to look at it in another way, 5% def is roughly equivelent to 10% resistance in terms of damage mitigation
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An easy explanation for that can be found here, courtesy of Cognito for anyone who needs further information.
If the Inv adjustment works as explained in this thread, should be a good thing, let's expect they get it right first time without further tweaking, just for the "annoyance factor" sake.
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oh yes 'Mary Whitehouse' bot that says a.s.s.e.s.s obviously a word unknown to these forums
[/ QUOTE ] I think you made a typo, since it doesn't censor assess 
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Perhaps I just can't spell that word as it's the second time the profanity filter has pulled me on it 
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Aim for it all you like in an 'Average' game it rarely happens
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Have you actually played this game? No can't say I ever have ! Honest Guv Min-maxers can quite easily get near the def cap, where a tiny bonus makes a sizable difference to suvivability, and it is the smart players who understand maths ans statistics that the game has to be balanced around.
If you care to ignore numbers and statistics, Can't say I ingnore them I just try and represent them in the most appropriate way given the scenario and think 5% def is trivial, then it is not suprising that your characters underperform. Interesting assessment, given I don't know if you have ever seen one of my charecters perform
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Have you actually played this game? Min-maxers can quite easily get near the def cap, where a tiny bonus makes a sizable difference to suvivability, and it is the smart players who understand maths ans statistics that the game has to be balanced around.
If you care to ignore numbers and statistics, and think 5% def is trivial, then it is not suprising that your characters underperform.
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^^^ That
You wanted an example?
45% def = 95% mitigation -> 5% damage: lets say a battle leaves you @ half health
40% def = 90% mitigation -> 10% damage: same battle, double damage, dead
*still* think 5% is trivial?
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Well to apply your example in a somewhat 'realistic' Ingame scernario you must be constantly being buffed by 2 compentent sheilders (or other such buffs) for this 5% to have the effect you claim (Especially as Psi defence currently starts at -5%)
So once again CAN 5% give you 50% damage mitagation yes but only in the correct circumstances and it's surely not wise to encourage those who may be less able at maths to beleive otherwise.
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If you want to look at it in another way, 5% def is roughly equivelent to 10% resistance in terms of damage mitigation
[/ QUOTE ]
An easy explanation for that can be found here, courtesy of Cognito for anyone who needs further information.
If the Inv adjustment works as explained in this thread, should be a good thing, let's expect they get it right first time without further tweaking, just for the "annoyance factor" sake.
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Interesting article though it seems to stop short of the maths involved in Def retaining itself validity against higher conning enemies and AV's which was kinda the bit I would have been interested in. Cheers though
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If you want to look at it in another way, 5% def is roughly equivelent to 10% resistance in terms of damage mitigation
[/ QUOTE ]
An easy explanation for that can be found here, courtesy of Cognito for anyone who needs further information.
If the Inv adjustment works as explained in this thread, should be a good thing, let's expect they get it right first time without further tweaking, just for the "annoyance factor" sake.
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Interesting article though it seems to stop short of the maths involved in Def retaining itself validity against higher conning enemies and AV's which was kinda the bit I would have been interested in. Cheers though
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Yo might understand the game better if you learned to read:
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7. Defence IS good against AVs and higher conning enemies.
Prior to issue 7, the mathematics of defence made it perform very poorly against AVs or higher conning enemies. You may still hear this, but it is now just mythology. Whatever the level of the enemy, or if it is a boss, lt, or AV, the average damage mitigation remains 1% defence = 2% resistance.
Of course, you still have to factor in the unlucky streak I mentioned above. When facing an AV with an almighty whallop, a defence based toon could face a huge chunk of damage, whilst a resistance based toon at least knows he has some protection.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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If you want to look at it in another way, 5% def is roughly equivelent to 10% resistance in terms of damage mitigation
[/ QUOTE ]
An easy explanation for that can be found here, courtesy of Cognito for anyone who needs further information.
If the Inv adjustment works as explained in this thread, should be a good thing, let's expect they get it right first time without further tweaking, just for the "annoyance factor" sake.
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Interesting article though it seems to stop short of the maths involved in Def retaining itself validity against higher conning enemies and AV's which was kinda the bit I would have been interested in. Cheers though
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Yo might understand the game better if you learned to read:
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7. Defence IS good against AVs and higher conning enemies.
Prior to issue 7, the mathematics of defence made it perform very poorly against AVs or higher conning enemies. You may still hear this, but it is now just mythology. Whatever the level of the enemy, or if it is a boss, lt, or AV, the average damage mitigation remains 1% defence = 2% resistance.
Of course, you still have to factor in the unlucky streak I mentioned above. When facing an AV with an almighty whallop, a defence based toon could face a huge chunk of damage, whilst a resistance based toon at least knows he has some protection.
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And this explains the mathmatics behind how this system works how exactly?
And to be quite frank praf your implications during your last couple of posts are probably breaking the forum rules conserning personal insults (implied or direct) 
You want details? Try here:
guide
I really should do something about this signature.
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Have you actually played this game? Min-maxers can quite easily get near the def cap, where a tiny bonus makes a sizable difference to suvivability, and it is the smart players who understand maths ans statistics that the game has to be balanced around.
If you care to ignore numbers and statistics, and think 5% def is trivial, then it is not suprising that your characters underperform.
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^^^ That
You wanted an example?
45% def = 95% mitigation -> 5% damage: lets say a battle leaves you @ half health
40% def = 90% mitigation -> 10% damage: same battle, double damage, dead
*still* think 5% is trivial?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well to apply your example in a somewhat 'realistic' Ingame scernario you must be constantly being buffed by 2 compentent sheilders (or other such buffs) for this 5% to have the effect you claim (Especially as Psi defence currently starts at -5%)
So once again CAN 5% give you 50% damage mitagation yes but only in the correct circumstances and it's surely not wise to encourage those who may be less able at maths to beleive otherwise.
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Think im not speaking from a normal in game experience?, my Inv tank currently has 22.3% psi def (27.3% excluding the 5% debuff) from slotting. So couple that with an accidental Dispersion Bubble from 1 defender thats afk and on follow you get 38.3% def (43.3% excluding the 5%debuff), not exactly 2 competent sheilders as you claim you *must* have
To slotted Inv tanks, this 5% def boost will make a notable difference
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Have you actually played this game? Min-maxers can quite easily get near the def cap, where a tiny bonus makes a sizable difference to suvivability, and it is the smart players who understand maths ans statistics that the game has to be balanced around.
If you care to ignore numbers and statistics, and think 5% def is trivial, then it is not suprising that your characters underperform.
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^^^ That
You wanted an example?
45% def = 95% mitigation -> 5% damage: lets say a battle leaves you @ half health
40% def = 90% mitigation -> 10% damage: same battle, double damage, dead
*still* think 5% is trivial?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well to apply your example in a somewhat 'realistic' Ingame scernario you must be constantly being buffed by 2 compentent sheilders (or other such buffs) for this 5% to have the effect you claim (Especially as Psi defence currently starts at -5%)
So once again CAN 5% give you 50% damage mitagation yes but only in the correct circumstances and it's surely not wise to encourage those who may be less able at maths to beleive otherwise.
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Think im not speaking from a normal in game experience?, my Inv tank currently has 22.3% psi def (27.3% excluding the 5% debuff) from slotting. So couple that with an accidental Dispersion Bubble from 1 defender thats afk and on follow you get 38.3% def (43.3% excluding the 5%debuff), not exactly 2 competent sheilders as you claim you *must* have
To slotted Inv tanks, this 5% def boost will make a notable difference
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I'm assuming such a high Psi defence is arrived at by a lot of Expensive set IO slotting which wouldn't to me really represent an 'average' Inv tank and probably would fall under the catogary of 'other such buffs' in my previous statement.
And cheers Praf another interesting article, I'll examine it in more detail when I find the time.
The Watchman accolade is easy to get and gives a significant buff to psi defence, one which is currently almost nullified by Unyealding.
You definition of average seams to corespond to what most of us would call a n00b.
I really should do something about this signature.
Alphane, I really do find it funny how you seem to be against a buff to invuln (more like a QoL adjustment tbh) just because you think it's trivial...
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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You definition of average seams to corespond to what most of us would call a n00b.
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QFT
That 5% will please a lot of people who covet their invul/ tanks, brutes, scrappers. To everyone else under your definition alphane, they won't give a rat's [censored].
Everybody wins
PRAF, while I agree with most of what you have written regarding the mechanics behind defense and definitely agree that the 5% base defense debuff going (if that happens) is welcome I am a bit confused here.
As far as I know the psi defense buff given by the Elusive Mind accolade power is 25%. The 5% base defense debuff in Unyielding is far from actually nullifying it. The psi resistance granted by Elusive Mind is 7.5%. Perhaps that is what you referred to?
Well done Raven for this spot:
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PRAF, while I agree with most of what you have written regarding the mechanics behind defense and definitely agree that the 5% base defense debuff going (if that happens) is welcome I am a bit confused here.
As far as I know the psi defense buff given by the Elusive Mind accolade power is 25%. The 5% base defense debuff in Unyielding is far from actually nullifying it. The psi resistance granted by Elusive Mind is 7.5%. Perhaps that is what you referred to?
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I would of said something but I wasn't about at all.
Quoting Praf:
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The Watchman accolade is easy to get and gives a significant buff to psi defence, one which is currently almost nullified by Unyealding.
You definition of average seams to corespond to what most of us would call a n00b.
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Well done. I think you may have just described many bite sized players/people with concepts as n00bs.
/Applauds..not.
You also spelled Unyielding, correspond and seems wrong.
I don't feel that Alphane has been interpreted in the best possible way either. 
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Change of subject cos I just on to have my say:
I like Castles line of thinking. 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I did get the defense and resistance components of elusive mind the wrong way round, however the larger value makes the effect even more significant.
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You also spelled Unyielding, correspond and seems wrong.
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I'm dyslexic. I do my best to correct my spelling errors, but with no spell check on the forums some always get through.
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I don't feel that Alphane has been interpreted in the best possible way either.
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How should he be interpreted? He dismisses 5% def as trivial. He is clearly wrong, but won't accept the word of a great many experienced players telling him otherwise. This is not the first time he has refused to believe what he has been told. Some of us don't like to be considered a liar.
I really should do something about this signature.
Allow me to not apologize for anything that maybe considered demeaning because in listing the things you wrote:
"Have you actually played this game?"
.."and it is the smart players who understand maths ans statistics that the game has to be balanced around."
"If you care to ignore numbers and statistics, and think 5% def is trivial, then it is not suprising that your characters underperform."
"Yo might understand the game better if you learned to read"
"You definition of average seams to corespond to what most of us would call a n00b"
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In your case I am not sure if I care that you're dyslexic. You're a teacher and all this makes me say "Crumbs! What are you like to your students?".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
As I said, I don't take kindly to being caled a liar, even by implication.
Wrong? I'm often that.
Rubbish speller? Undoubtably true.
But liar, I'm not, and that offends me.
I really should do something about this signature.
I'll just check whether you were called a liar whilst you're reading this.
People have different opinions and people air them out.
Whether or not something is trivial is subjective, in my case, with my build and so different in preferred methods, its pretty trivial. I am more interested in the changes to the passives tbh.
Edit: No wait, let's just look to see a forum where people are not on each others cases.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Some things are matters of opinion. Some things are matters of fact.
Some people, when someone tells them something they didn't aready know, say thank you. Others say, I don't believe you or anyone else on these forums.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Interesting article though it seems to stop short of the maths involved in Def retaining itself validity against higher conning enemies and AV's which was kinda the bit I would have been interested in. Cheers though
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Soz, in a rush and can't look for the link right now but I'll check it for you when possible, if you like defense you'll love it 
Basically, defence scales hence any foes (no matter if minions, lieutenants or bosses) up to +5 lvls have a 50% chance tohit except a few who have a higher tohitbuff, hence at defence cap any +5 foe will have a 5% chance to hit you, an AV up to +5 lvls above will have something around 7.5% chance tohit against you at def cap and as has been stated, any Inv tanker can nowadays hit defence cap.
5% psi defence becomes interesting with the right power choices, such as combat jumping and weave plus of course, sets and unique enhancements such as Steadfast Protection +3% defence.
I think there's a table at paragonwiki if you want to check further.
Not sure I'm making sense but I'm hungover and in a rush, will try check figures for you later.
Edit: Damn I'm thick, check the link in my signature, you'll find useful maths for defence.
Ok Praf I apologise for any perceived insult perhaps my information gathering techniques fail to meet the standards of etiquette usual to a forum (this being the first one I've ever really used, So |\|008 and proud).
So to return to where I was going with this, it would appear that Defence has some scalic factor applied to it to balance the scalr effect of 'Conning', Now this point I'm not sure on but is the same scalic effect applied to dmg in some way ie A high 'conning' enemy does more dmg to you if that is a truth then has Defence not gained an advantage on Res or was the same scalic balance applied.
Still just checking it all out but I joined the 'Faithful this weekend so' \/\/007.
The way it works is something like this. Say you have 25% def. If you are attacked by an even conning minion, it has a 25% chance of hitting you instead of 50%. Therefore it provides 25/50 = 50% damage mitigation, the same as having a resistance of 50%.
If the minion was +1, it has a multiplying factor (I havnt been able to find the exact value, so call it 1.1). Chance to hit the target without defence is 1.1x50% = 55%. Chance to hit the target with 25% defence = 1.1x(50-25) = 27.5%. Damage mitigation = 27.5/55 = 50%, the same as before.
AVs, bosses and lts scale in the same way.
Therefore, the higher conning mob is more likely to hit you than the lower conning mob, but the damage mitigation remains constant.
The other consequence of this is that +5% defence does not always mean the mob is 5% less likely to hit you. If it was an even con AV for example, it would be 7.5% less likely to hit you.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Some things are matters of opinion. Some things are matters of fact.
Some people, when someone tells them something they didn't aready know, say thank you. Others say, I don't believe you or anyone else on these forums.
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I have been asleep since last message. I think you were being a tad too sensitive.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
[ QUOTE ]
Have you actually played this game? Min-maxers can quite easily get near the def cap, where a tiny bonus makes a sizable difference to suvivability, and it is the smart players who understand maths ans statistics that the game has to be balanced around.
If you care to ignore numbers and statistics, and think 5% def is trivial, then it is not suprising that your characters underperform.
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^^^ That
You wanted an example?
45% def = 95% mitigation -> 5% damage: lets say a battle leaves you @ half health
40% def = 90% mitigation -> 10% damage: same battle, double damage, dead
*still* think 5% is trivial?