How could AV's and GM's be more... challenging?
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2008-08-14 10:11 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Problem is when they try and do something a bit more complex or requiring more team co-ordination, everyone moans - even the people that wanted it in the first place.
Look at Hamidon, that entire encounter was a test run for a more complex challenge and the majority of the community just up and said "No that's dumb we want easy mode back".
Good point. 
RE: Original Hamidon, did they ever state what the secret method was for taking him down? From what I recall, they modified him several times as people were defeating him in a way not according to The Vision, and then they brought about the new encounter.
Not a big fan of having positioning be key to an encounter... I have raided in wow and to beat 99% of the mobs you needed 1: Good enough gear and 2: Stand in the right place, or move in the right pattern.
Just gets frustrating in the end cause there's always someone who thinks their way is better and end up getting the whole team killed.
They're fine as it is imo. Some AVs have powerful attacks, like nova and such, which are easily dodged if you know what you're doing.
I did suggest something different here
http://uk.boards.cityofheroes.com/sh...Number=1146379
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Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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Good point.
RE: Original Hamidon, did they ever state what the secret method was for taking him down? From what I recall, they modified him several times as people were defeating him in a way not according to The Vision, and then they brought about the new encounter.
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Party line was that everyone was right on the edge of one side of the jelly when he spawned the yellow mito's and as such when everyone regrouped they could go to the other side and ignore them and just kill him.
I think.
I'm not a big fan of 'scripted' encounters, and they don't make anything more challenging, apart from the first few tries where people work out how to do something. Once that's out of the way, it just returns to being grind and having a Raid Leader figure on Ventrilo yelling commands at the goons in the funny suits. (Ever seen the South Park World of Warcraft episode? "Alright, Stan will activate Shadow Form and at that point I will Shield Wall..." or words to that effect.) Monsters have a script, players have a script, not actually challenging.
If you want to make things more challenging you need to beef up the AIs of the mobs to use more variance, pick on soft targets, fire powers at good times, not just when they recharge... Trouble is, if that actually happened, a significant number of people would stop doing TFs and such because they would be close to impossible. Somehow, you would actually need to devise an in-game rationale for how come all the mobs suddenly got downgraded powers, and grew more than one brain cell.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
MORE HP AND MORE REGEN
No, seriously, take an example or two from WoW bosses. Tank-and-Spank is a boring tactic in any MMORPG for what it suppsed to be a really tough storyline boss character or powerful creature.
The 2nd Romulus fight is a step in the right direction. Not quite a simple tank-and-spank, not quite rocket science.
Nictus Romulus is a fun and challenging fight, if you don't do it the cheese way 
Things like more ambushes or having to chase an AV/Monster around a map and avoiding triggered or scripted hazards would be good.
But you've got to balance all that with the fact that the community (generalisation) only seems to want to take so much "difficult".
I think the main problem for making AVs and GMs tougher is that it might lead to situations where you need a certain AT or powerset to be successful.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
There's need as in need, and there's need as in "the players perceive the need".
A lot of times where people would say you need something, you actually don't. Take AV's, you can drop 90% of them with just DPS in a team. Sure it's easier with -Res or -Regen or Slows or -Damage, but it's not needed
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No, seriously, take an example or two from WoW bosses.
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Which then runs into the problem Raven highlighted - once you've learned the encounter you're straight back at the problem you were having before.
Watching Kil'jaeden burst from the Sunwell in all his glory and fire was awesome the first time. When you've learned him hough, it's just as routine as the current crop of CoX AVs.
Personally I would like to see more signiture attacks from AVs. Thinking of ones like nightstar etc. as the most boring - they are basically just "normal" ATs with higher HP and regen (and unlimited end).
I'd also like to see more unique scenario's. Fighting Dr Aeon in the STF is a good example of this when he summons his clones. I'm thinking your fighting an AV and when they get to half health they run off and the team gets shut in for a massive ambush of thier minions which they then have to defeat in order to get to the AV again etc. etc. just to throw out a random idea. Things like that would also be a bit more in character as rarely in superhero fiction do the "big bosses" hang around whilst being pumelled by 8 hero's.
I think they should have more tricks up thier sleeve rather than just massive HP or phasing/MOGing etc.
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
Tsk, I said some examples, not copy-paste the exact dance-system they have.
Many end-level WoW bosses tend to have "abnormal" techniques required to fight them, however this is akin to learning how to dance - it might look difficult at first but it ends up embedded in your brain and you do it naturally. Which, yes, runs itno the problem Raven highlighted.
Which is why it'd be cool to also give them some non-predictability. Some non-standard mob behavior (going for the healer) would be great too, if only it didn't overly complicate things to the point of most bosses being unkillable.
Wow, the Col agrees with everything I wrote. I must be right about a subject I've only ever read about. 
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
More movement 
It seems odd that AV's are generally happy to stand arround in one place, or even if they move, it's not that fast.
Melee AV's with SJ and SS who 'lock onto' characters for a period of time could be fun.
Running around a map desperately trying to shake them whilst your teammates shout "come back!"
Given that movement is king in PVP it seems kind of poo that the toughest villains in the game can't get around a bit faster.
TP Foe too? Let them bring ranged support in a bit closer 
No loss of aggro after you've gone 100 yards. Make them hunt you and your team down.
Personally speaking, I think more dangerous, but quicker fights would really entertain me.
and yes, Romulus with his Nictus is the most fun AV battle for me at the moment.
Fahie
They should all be in PvP zones.
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They should all be in PvP zones.
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I agree that unpredicatable AVs would be a big bonus, I was just thinking of adding a little interest to make each one different (between AVs, obviously fighting the same AV will yeild the same experience) that would be relatively easy and quick to implement. AI changes are ideal but I feel a tad unrealistic with what we've come to expect from content updates.
The fight with Dr Aeon IS the same every time, granted, and i'm sure if you do the STF every other day it gets very dull, but it's STILL always more interesting than a fight with marauder or bobcat or neuron to name but a few. These use conventional powers and offer no additional risk or unique attacks/situations to differentiate between them.
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
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More movement
It seems odd that AV's are generally happy to stand arround in one place, or even if they move, it's not that fast.
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Heehee - have you faced some of the villain-side AVs? I'm thinking Ghost of Scrapyard in particular.
That craven "monster" runs like a girlie at near enough first contact, and keeping up with him well enough to maintain damage is a real struggle. Persuading him not to run into ferry drones or the Black Market, vaporise himself and deny everyone the badge can be quite the challenge too... 
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More movement
It seems odd that AV's are generally happy to stand arround in one place, or even if they move, it's not that fast.
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Heehee - have you faced some of the villain-side AVs? I'm thinking Ghost of Scrapyard in particular.
That craven "monster" runs like a girlie at near enough first contact, and keeping up with him well enough to maintain damage is a real struggle. Persuading him not to run into ferry drones or the Black Market, vaporise himself and deny everyone the badge can be quite the challenge too...
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Deathsurge is a big wuss as well. Last time we took him down the only challange was all the running.
Although it did add a slight bit of a chllange as we kept aggroing additional mobs. Still a boring grind though.
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AI changes are ideal but I feel a tad unrealistic with what we've come to expect from content updates.
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Hell yes, not expecting it to happen, but the question wasn't "what do you expect to happen to make AVs more interesting?"
If AV/GMs are given scripted powers of somekind and the rewards are increased to the point where they're worth it, they will be learned and farmed. Then they aren't interesting anymore.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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AI changes are ideal but I feel a tad unrealistic with what we've come to expect from content updates.
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Hell yes, not expecting it to happen, but the question wasn't "what do you expect to happen to make AVs more interesting?"
If AV/GMs are given scripted powers of somekind and the rewards are increased to the point where they're worth it, they will be learned and farmed. Then they aren't interesting anymore.
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Quite true. But then I think that's always going to be the case, as it is in any other game. I would love to see unique, random AI/scenarios that make every fight different...but i would SETLLE for just having them each have some kind of signiture event/quirk that makes them different from the others. Frankly atm there may as well be no difference betweem bobcat, valkyrie, ms liberty etc. At least states has thunderbolts and malaise has decoys etc.
It's still the same every time but at least I feel like i'm fighting a real signture villain rather than just beating up a tougher-than-usual blaster
I miss him in the weeping of the rain;
I want him at the shrinking of the tide;
The old snows melt from every mountain-side,
And last year's leaves are smoke in every lane;
But last year's bitter loving must remain
~Edna St. Vincent Millay
Thought a little around GMs and came up with this:
Kraken: Have him spawn a number of Kraken Hatchlings (those mini-versions from Sewer Trial) when damaged enough. Make it a random number 75-25% hp so you can't say exactly when it'll happen.
Kronos: Spawns with a number of Hercules Titans. These can merge with Kronos when it is damaged, restoring some health (Same theme as Hercs->Zeus).
Jurassik: Occasionally throws his Car-on-a-stick at a random hero, dealing massive damage. He then fights with reduced damage for a while, before getting a new Car-on-a-stick. Yes, this may oneshot some team members. Kill him quickly before he does it too many times.
Babbage: Turns into a modest number of clocks upon defeat. These are minion/lieutenant class, not Gears.
Adamastor: Give him a Zombie Bite, temporarily turning the affected hero into a zombie. Essentially a strong confuse power.
Lusca: Have her grab crates and equipment from the docks, tossing at heroes. Or crush a ship, causing an oil spill which may ignite when exposed to fire/energy damage, burning players. Have her ink do -fly, so players just don't group fly above the oil spill
Icelock - Ice/Storm Controller
Command Bot 1 - Bot/Traps MM
As I sit here, enjoying a fine packet of Smoky Bacon Walkers crisps, I turned my thoughts to our beloved Archvillains, Heroes and our poorly treated Giant Monsters in City of Heroes.
We all know that more HP, more regen and such do not make a funner fight. It just increases the grind against them. But the question I pose is what kind of things could be done to make the fights more epic, more involving, more... well, in the GM's case, rewarding?
Looking at that Melee class topic made me think of Ghost Widow, and her Dark Regeneration. Now, I've not faced the STF myself yet, but instead of forcing melee characters to stay out of range, maybe if there was some visual clue before she'd Dark Regen telling them to get the hell out of dodge?
Maybe she'd go into the Soul Storm flying position, spirits whirling around her as she became invunerable for a few seconds, long enough for people to get clear, but not too long as to make it easy.
Maybe something involving items on the maps or other characters, or special attacks that required more tactics than orgies of fists and blasts, the likes of which only seen in dodgy films.
What kind of things would people consider to make these fights less grind, more involving, and most importantly, more fun?
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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More Than a Game
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