Trial restrictions- I'm not so sure..
By
Carnifax,
Posted on: 2008-08-13 11:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So now looking at this thread most of the people that have posted on it that were in general agreement that the trial account restrictions are not the best way forward for the game or the community are now all argueing amongst themselves about how the points are being worded. Surely the most relevent point at the moment is that the points are being worded and we should be showing a united stand in getting things changed rather than a bickering rabble that goes off the subject into the obscure loses the whole thread and in the end achieves nothing more than people wasting there time.
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Is that another way of saying "I was wrong in accusing GR of reprimanding the OP for his views, but would rather change the subject than admit it"?
I'm sure our various views are being noted by GR, who clearly has his eye on the thread; if there's a majority view (as there seems to be, but not exactly unanimous IMHO) that will be picked up too.
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you think this game would be significantly better off, as we play it on this very day, if they hadnt dropped the staff from (i think) 70ish to 15? And the subs were at, say 200,000 mark?
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Look at some of the content we got with just 15 developers. Faultline for instance. Quality > Quantity.
Also, you can probably bet that a lot of the developers in that 70 were brought in to work on City of Villains, due to its updated engine, new zones, villain groups, play mechanics, PVP zones, et cetera, et cetera, something you'd need more hands to work on than content being put out by people who know their job and can interact with each other well.
Of course, those 70 also had The Visionary himself to deal with. Kind of the George Lucas of MMO gaming. Now, Positron and the others have more slack to take the game in a direction they feel it should go, rather than following the Vision.
Which included tanks going for Strongmen, no intention of using Supergroup bases for RP purposes and other 'stellar' design choices.
As for the Trial Restrictions:
Yes, they do need loosening in some placse, and I can accept how some of the restrictions might not encourage some people to play the game in Retail. I think Level 20 might be a better cut off point, so they have more powers to play with, and can get into some AV fights in Faultline, Synapse TF and against Dr. Vazhilok in one of the Story Arcs.
Disable them from speaking in Broadcast, sure. The Inf limit is about right, though might need upping if they ever increased the level that people could reach, and the tell/teaming situation does need a look at.
I should note that a suggestion discussed in detail on the French forums has already been passed along for consideration at NCNC (it was also suggested here on the English), and any other good ideas that crop up will likewise be sent over.
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So now looking at this thread most of the people that have posted on it that were in general agreement that the trial account restrictions are not the best way forward for the game or the community are now all argueing amongst themselves about how the points are being worded. Surely the most relevent point at the moment is that the points are being worded and we should be showing a united stand in getting things changed rather than a bickering rabble that goes off the subject into the obscure loses the whole thread and in the end achieves nothing more than people wasting there time.
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Is that another way of saying "I was wrong in accusing GR of reprimanding the OP for his views, but would rather change the subject than admit it"?
I'm sure our various views are being noted by GR, who clearly has his eye on the thread; if there's a majority view (as there seems to be, but not exactly unanimous IMHO) that will be picked up too.
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GR was right to reprimand me. I'm fine with it. I shouldnt have said that. I've done it before and will undoubtably do it again but it's wrong and I know it and have no issue with being pulled up over it.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
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Positron TF, levels 10-15 on heroes.
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does that one give out a recipe, i though it just gave you the badge for doing it been so long snice i done that one
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I avoid it at all cost and dont think I've done it since inventions were in the game so not 100% sure. Paragon Wiki cant answer that question for me either it seems
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Pretty sure it does. I seem to remember getting a Snipe receipe on it last time we trioed it. Mmmm. Level 14 Snipe Recipe!
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Positron TF, levels 10-15 on heroes.
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does that one give out a recipe
[/ QUOTE ]It's a TF so it drops a recipe from the TF pool. And first SIO's start at L10.
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GR was right to...
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Oh yes, understood, and in itself that's not something I wanted to dwell on.
It just seemed unreasonable to me that rocknrollrebel was accusing GR of trying to clamp down on criticism itself, which wasn't what he was doing at all.
Hmmm no standoff its a view that i see this thread deteriorating into nothing more than people having a go at each other about who said what and for how much and the whole thing getting off the point which is most definatly not me trying to change the subject. As for my post about what Ghost said my opinion is still an identical one that its a shame that instead of red names doing something about the problems they are on here posting reprimands. That does not mean to say that the reprimand was in my opinion not needed and i did say as much in my post, but in my opinion the whole flavour of Ghosts wishy washy maybes and probably nots is not raising my expectation for a change that we are all discussing.
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And I guess something like this brought out the worst in me, not for the first time. I'm sorry.
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Recovery and self awareness! Genuine joy in seeing a thread on a downward spiral pick itself up. 
You are not wrong, the restrictions are a little too high. However I would rather see an initial erring towards strictness that has resulted, certainly for me, a less cluttered and annoying experience. Now, with some course correction, the restrictions can be loosened with the valuable feedback. And then perhaps tightened again as the pendulum swings back and forth in ever-decreasing arcs towards the Ideal.
edit: rockandrollrebel - I think you are wrong. Do not make your post a self fulfilling prophecy. Lionsbane gets passionate on marketing and PR issues because (I gather from other posts he has made) it is his job and his vocation the lucky fellow - not everyone gets to make those two the same thing. As you saw he pulled back from a dangerous spiral. Follow his example I say - add something constructive, some insight? Anyone can 'DOOOM'.
You may be confusing roles; GR's Community Team Lead, which means (amongst other things) he interacts with the CoX community (i.e. us!), on the board and elsewhere, and passes information between us and the development team over in the US. He may well be in the loop as far as decision making on game/trial restrictions are concerned.
The people in NCNC are the ones that have the tools and knowledge to be able to get their hands dirty and actually implement any changes the appropriate people decide to make.
When you say "its a shame that instead of red names doing something about the problems they are on here posting reprimands" it sounds like you think GR should hop over to his coding terminal, make a few changes to the game code in line with the posts we've made over the last few hours, and upload it to the training room for testing.
It doesn't work like that; moderating boards is part of GR's job, and his doing so won't hold up the development team.
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My grope is with the person(s) that thought this out.
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This is disturbing in all kinds of ways 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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When you say "its a shame that instead of red names doing something about the problems they are on here posting reprimands" it sounds like you think GR should hop over to his coding terminal, make a few changes to the game code in line with the posts we've made over the last few hours, and upload it to the training room for testing.
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Yeah, come on GR. Get coding.
And fix Oil Slick while you're at it!
Hmmm no what i actually mean is that Ghost as a red name is the voice of the company on the boards he is the companies representative and whatever he says on these boards should be construed as the views of the company so when i see a red name making in my opinion negative comments that means that the company has a negative view on the issue at hand. So unless Ghost starts writing a disclaimer at the beginning of his posts to say that his views can not be in anyway representative of the companies views i will carry on with my thoughts and opinions of what i think he as a representitive of the company is saying.
If you can find me ANY company that is happy to hear "I think you're a bunch of idiots" said directly to them, I'll be surprised. GR was merely pointing out that the tone of the post was inappropriate, even if the rest of the content was fine. Yes, it was the view of the company. I fail to see why that's a problem.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.* He didn't MAKE any negative comments! He told Lionsbane off for a post he made, end of!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
And if you read my post shadowe you will find that i actually agree with you and that is why neither of us fail to see the problem. the problem is in the second post and the content of the second paragraph which clearly states maybes and probably nots which in my opinion is a negative post and the whole crux of my argument that Ghost was more interested in reprimanding rather than dealing with the issues being talked about, wether or not the reprimanding was right or wrong the whole thing has deflected from the original problem which is all i was trying to say
I'm replying to GR as I'm not sure who the quote is actually attributable to.
When we first heard of the restrictions to trial accounts I thought they were a step too far. In my mind it doesn't matter how good a game is if the trial is overly restrictive it can put you off before you begin.
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From issue 12 pacth notes
Trial Accounts now have the following restrictions. Characters on Trial Accounts may not:
Hold more than 50,000 Influence/Infamy
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Personally I think that limit is a too low. By level 10 since the introduction of salvage I don't think I have hit level 10 without at least 100k in inf. At lvl 14 you have 21 slots (ignoring rest/brawl/etc), at lvl 12 when DOs arrive you get 18. I think to give a trialist a reasonable idea of how they're becoming stronger as they level they need to be able to afford and slot a full set of DOs. At around 5k inf a DO that makes around 100k inf, erring on the side of caution I'd put the inf limit at 150-200k. That to me is low enough that someone selling inf would find it time consuming to transfer any sizeable amount but give the genuine trialist a good feel for the game.
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Join a Supergroup
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Plus and minuses to this restriction. A trialist could be prevented by the game from speaking on coalition. Also I'd let them add to storage but locked out of taking from storage. This would allow them to see bases and use base transports but prevent them from looting a SGs phat lewt. They could also be locked out of any coalition bases
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Use any chat other than /local, /team, or /friend.
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This seems to be a major issue with quite a number of people. Not ideal but perhaps allow trialists to reply to /tells but not initiate them. That should help with trialist teaming a little.
I don't know if this is possible but I wonder about a trialist automated /tell. The trialist sees someone broadcasting they are looking for people to join their team. If the trialist could send an automated /tell saying something like "[level 8 scrapper on trial account would like to join your team]". They couldn't say anything more on /tell but would inform the player of their interest in teaming.
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Invite characters into a Team (although Trial Account characters can join a team)
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Not great but fair enough, other than allowing them to form teams of their own I can't think of a middle ground
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Use In-Game Mail
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I've hardly used the system in all this time so I think a trialist can manage without it for a few days.
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Level up past level 14
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As good a place as any I suppose to put the limiter.
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Enter any PVP Zone
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Not sure if pvpers would like trialists in the pvp zones. If they did the level limit could be moved to 15 to let them see Bloody Bay.
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And if you read my post shadowe you will find that i actually agree with you and that is why neither of us fail to see the problem. the problem is in the second post and the content of the second paragraph which clearly states maybes and probably nots which in my opinion is a negative post and the whole crux of my argument that Ghost was more interested in reprimanding rather than dealing with the issues being talked about, wether or not the reprimanding was right or wrong the whole thing has deflected from the original problem which is all i was trying to say
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Is the current system perfect? Probably not: it's rare that anything is perfect when first implemented. Is it overkill? Maybe. Will changes and adjustments be considered? Certainly, and they're far more likely to be implemented when they're put forward sensibly.
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Here's what you were commenting on. Let's see.
Is the current system perfect? I don't think anyone here will argue that it's not. Why should GR and anyone else at NCSoft feel any differently? But they had to do something. And I'm glad they did. It's easier to relax a harsh policy than it is to slowly crank up one that's too lenient.
Is it overkill? It might be. Or it might actually be the most optimal solution. There is insufficient data right now to say for certain, so the best answer is 'maybe'.
I can't see anything negative in that. What I actually see is our Community Lead being honest with us. Would you prefer that they keep quiet about how NCSoft perceives things? Back to the good old days where everything was hidden from us?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.* well ok lets put this in context yes i agree its not perfect and as you so elequently put noone here will argue that its not so perhaps the correct answer should have been NO rather than probably not. And as for the is it overkill if the best answer that a representative of a company can come up with is maybe it may well be best if that representative issued a no comment instead as for either answer not being negative when taken in context of the sentence i just can not see how you can view it as anything less than negative. But for me i have had quiet enough of trying to get my legitimate opinion accross to the unlistening and will go back to my beating the snot out of archon morricone as he has missed many severe beatings today as i have been far too busy on here trying to explain myself and my opinions. Which brings us back to the OP and trial accounts i am here saying that trial accounts are impeding on my game enjoyment because of the restrictions bestowed upon them and just to prove the point im here typing instead of playing.
You opinion is yours, and no one is going to argue that you are entitled to hold it. I happen to think that you are wrong. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to hold it.
What I can't comprehend is how on Earth is it negative for someone from the company that released this game to say "Maybe the steps taken to limit trial accounts have been excessive, but we're flexible about it, so please come up with constructive suggestions as to how we can improve the service we offer, while still screwing over the RMT sites." Because that's what GR's post said. That's not negative. That's positive. They listened when we said we were sick of inf sellers, and did something about it. They took things to the extreme. They can now look into dialing back, if they want to, and they're asking for our input as well. You have taken a post by the community lead who agrees with the legitimate complaints about trial account restrictions and said that he's being negative.
And if you think that NC are ever, ever, EVER going to flat out say something to us unless they know it's true and definite, I direct your attention to Statesman's comments about Global Nerfs prior to ED. They're not going to get caught in that trap again. They're going to post responses that show their opinion but not give definitive answers, because if they give definitive answers when things aren't settled for certain, the player base WILL scream about it, for very valid reasons.
And if you think that 'maybe' is not a good answer to a question that has multiple possible answers depending on the circumstances that attain now and in the future, may I suggest that you never work in Customer Services. Because 'maybe' crops up a HELL of a lot, because it's often the BEST AND ONLY answer you can give.
I value GR's honesty far more than a cagey 'no comment'.
And now to something that is of particular interest: How are the trial account restrictions affecting your enjoyment of the game, again? From what I can see you have a full account, and I don't think you've mentioned anyone you know getting a trial account and being restricted by it.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
At the risk of repeating myself again in order to answer a question that is already on this thread, In my first post on this thread i commented that trial users were impeding on my game time by generally chatting and spamming the help channel which in turn has made me delete the help tab from a number of my toons as while i have no objections to stopping what im doing inbetween mobs to help out people that have a genuine question or problem i find it time consuming and an annoyance to sort thru all the chat that has started appearing on there because these people with trial accounts have no other way of communicating with anyone else. Not in particular there fault but it is the only media open to them, Its a help channel and rightly so they should have access to it to be able to get information from other users but as anything open to abuse it will be abused. I hope that this first point has been described to your satisfaction and i hope it is put in a way that even a 5 year old can understand so there can be no more misunderstanding of what i have said for the second time.
Secondly in the post above this it mentions how i am not playing the game and i am instead on here wasting time explaining myself to people that are not listening and obviously to some people that are not reading the posts that they are replying to. So to sum that up throughout todays getting involved with this stupidity i have spent at least 2 hours on this thread reading and replying which in turn has meant i have spent 2 hours less playing the game which even to people with little or no intellect whatsoever can surely be construed as affecting somebodies enjoyment of the game. if you read my posts in this thread i have said absolutely nothing different here to what i have said previously except the fact that this particular post has had to be laboriously lengthened and ellaborated on so that i feel confident that even a child can understand it,so maybe with a little bit of luck it is not going to have another stupid question asked of it.
Lastly i am not gonna waste any more time trying to explain my position on what has been said about Ghosts post suffice to say that yes i am entitled to my opinion and once again the voices of the forum addicts are heard again and the voice of the people like myself that rarely feel the need to voice an opinion on anything are shunned and made to feel like they should not be posting here in the first place as there opinion is not valid and quiet wrong.
Just because i dont have a 1000 posts to my name does not mean that my thoughts and opinions do not count they are just rarely heard. And this thread has become the epitomy of why, there is far too much having to justify opinions remarks and comments to people that just like to hear the sound of there own voice and will make an argument even when they both agree on the same subject. I have nothing more to say on the matter and will finally go back to my game playing and hope to get at least a little bit of enjoyment out of what is left of the day
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I should note that a suggestion discussed in detail on the French forums has already been passed along for consideration at NCNC (it was also suggested here on the English), and any other good ideas that crop up will likewise be sent over.
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While not ideas Per Se, I hope that much of the constructive critiscm as possible is fed back to red names. I mean given 5 minutes while typing my initial post in this thread I was able to prove to potential viability of RMTers just buying accounts and recouping that one 1 sole customer.
Personally I would raise the level cap, that being that in my trial I was able to hit 20, and i played fairly slowly, some gamers who power play could easily be starved for activity with the cap.
I would probably say to double it, 30 seems fair, since it makes tier 9s of primary just a tease away, and you could hit zones where people of your own sets your teaming with could be using these tier 9s, increasing the desirability to level, i.e get the game.
Influence - I agree with this, a first time player should have no need for that kind of cash, if your looking at Min/Maxing within 10 days, theres something wrong, infact I would think most trialist that dont have a friend holding their hand would barely be aware of the power of IOs at this point.
PvP Zone entrance - I suppose this is limitations with capping the account's max level, while entering a zone which level locks you much higher, I dont like PvP, especially in this game, I wdnt reconmend it, but then some people love it and only play MMOs for it, with an icnreased account elvel cap, then Bloody Bay would operate as a taster to zonal PvP.
Chat restrictions - Emails are fairly defunct imo, my tab barely opens sucessfully, and I dont remember the last email I got that wasnt an RMT. Saying that, its not hard to delete them when they do come in (and the tab opens) Id be fine with trialists not using this, simply because I struggle to think of any decent use for it as is anywy.
Tells, it would be damn good atleast for them to reply if someone chooses to emssage them. Social Isolation in an MMO cant be good.
Broadcast/Globals- Agreeable I suppose, cant think why a trialist would be, in 10 days, integrated anywhere enough to need ot use globals, however Broadcast may be too limiting. Many new players to the game seem to have the wrong idea how it works, people broadcasting in one area thinking its hitting another, but for the most part, broadcast is (along with blinds) one of the biggest team starters, if they can see it, but only respond in local, they have to hope that the intended taget is in the small local range.
But then thats just my opinion on these, I do honestly think that there were poor design choices made because the Devs rushed into fill this void that almost all players were screaming out for. I do hope that the team arnt too proud to admit that perhaps the first swing was a bit heavy handed and give it another go.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Secondly in the post above this it mentions how i am not playing the game and i am instead on here wasting time explaining myself to people that are not listening and obviously to some people that are not reading the posts that they are replying to. So to sum that up throughout todays getting involved with this stupidity i have spent at least 2 hours on this thread reading and replying which in turn has meant i have spent 2 hours less playing the game which even to people with little or no intellect whatsoever can surely be construed as affecting somebodies enjoyment of the game. if you read my posts in this thread i have said absolutely nothing different here to what i have said previously except the fact that this particular post has had to be laboriously lengthened and ellaborated on so that i feel confident that even a child can understand it,so maybe with a little bit of luck it is not going to have another stupid question asked of it.
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So we disagree with you because we're not paying attention and/or have little or no intellect, rather than because we have valid opinions that differ from your own. Fair enough.
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Lastly i am not gonna waste any more time trying to explain my position on what has been said about Ghosts post suffice to say that yes i am entitled to my opinion and once again the voices of the forum addicts are heard again and the voice of the people like myself that rarely feel the need to voice an opinion on anything are shunned and made to feel like they should not be posting here in the first place as there opinion is not valid and quiet wrong.
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Ah, the old "forumites are all ganging up on me" wail. No, us people that post regularly aren't some monolithic block that compare notes via IM on which new arrival we're going to pick on next. We're as likely to disagree with each other as anyone else.
Perhaps you could at least entertain the idea that if you post something and everyone else says it doesn't make sense, perhaps that's because it doesn't make sense. Not because there's some secret forumite conspiracy, or we're all thick.
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Just because i dont have a 1000 posts to my name does not mean that my thoughts and opinions do not count they are just rarely heard. And this thread has become the epitomy of why, there is far too much having to justify opinions remarks and comments to people that just like to hear the sound of there own voice and will make an argument even when they both agree on the same subject.
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Except that there isn't agreement, which makes argument a bit less gratuitous. Your views "count" just as much as everyone else's, which is to say "not for a lot"; GR may note some of them, and provide summaries back to NCNC if the noise is loud enough - NCNC staff may even notice them themselves - but that aside we're just people saying what we think on an internet forum. On any significant scale of things, that doesn't weigh very heavily.
As far as "having" to justify opinions, you don't. If you say something, and another poster (or posters) disagree with it, no one's forcing you to make a followup. If you thought the original argument was strong enough, and explained your position fully, it should be able to stand on its own merits.
On the other hand, if you feel you need to clarify something, or your original views were misinterpreted, you have the option of replying. There's still no one forcing you to, though.
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Just because i dont have a 1000 posts to my name does not mean that my thoughts and opinions do not count they are just rarely heard.
[/ QUOTE ]Post counts really have nothing to do with anything.
Or maybe they do, but inversely to what you seem to think, since nobody takes GG seriously, and not many listen to me either.
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Positron TF, levels 10-15 on heroes.
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does that one give out a recipe, i though it just gave you the badge for doing it been so long snice i done that one
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I avoid it at all cost and dont think I've done it since inventions were in the game so not 100% sure. Paragon Wiki cant answer that question for me either it seems
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"