Things you'd like to see in the Mission Creator?
By
Carnifax,
Posted on: 2008-07-07 08:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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*exception: no good ever came of MS Word.
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"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
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*exception: no good ever came of MS Word.
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S'true
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The majority of players play for xp and inf
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Who gave you the right to speek for "the majority"? You mean YOU.
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So when you make definitive statements regarding what players other than yourself think it's fine but no one else has the same insight that you've been gifted with?
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Basically, if they do allow full rewards, xp grinders, inf farmers and badge hunters will have no reason to play the live game. Cue deserted servers and the death of the game.
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DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM™
I would imagine, given my mortal understanding of these things, that xp grinders/ inf farmers/ badgehunters etc do not play through the game currently as you define it, as in do not play through contact arcs. Having player made missions won't change that regardless of whether these missions offer reward or not.
Did I miss something or are player missions going to not be on the live servers? I seriously doubt that giving player made missions rewards is going to be the death of the game, though I am willing to admit I was wrong when it happens.
From the few (very minor) hints we've had so far, the missions themselves will be hosted online and downloadable to play, but I am pretty darn certain that you will need to be logged in to the servers to actually play them.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
I'd imagine you'd access them through Ouroboros - and that they'd load in just like a standard mission would. Also, the creation of them would be handled just like creating a base. Nothing outside of the game itself - at least, as long as they're keeping it simple.
*shrugs*
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
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problem is leaving it flexible with the full rewards, means it will just become another farming tool. and either the functionality or the rewards will have to be limited, to curb what i think they will think of as undesirable behaviour. (weather it is or it isn't is irrelevant) i suppose there might be a balance between the two extremes, but I can also seem them missing it at it will be a really small spot to hit.
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We discussed all this last time in the old thread, but I still don't see as the devs would let that be a problem. There are several ways they could design it with plenty of flexibility, but still prevent exploitation.
Several options could be:
1) Allow selection of mob type, but disallow mob placement. Leave that to the mission generator itself as well as difficulty levels.
2) Put a reward timer on them, like task forces.
3) Enforce a cooldown period between runs.
4) Disallow mission resetting.
Just a few simple enough options that would help prevent exploiting a more flexible mission designer.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
I was just discussing this on msn and I'd assume the creator would be something like
<ul type="square">[*]choose level range for mission
[*]choose map type
[*]for offices/labs/sewers etc layout map, for street maps they'd come as currently in game
[*]choose villain type from those available at level of mission and lay first spawn site
[*]lay subsequent spawns (probably the editor will restrict you from laying mobs within x square of each other based on the current dev parameters)
[*]add in mission title, mission story and any dialogue for npcs[/list]The game will then generate mob spawn size based on player mission difficulty and use current xp settings for mobs chosen. Mission reward will be same as for mission of that level. I'd be surprised if initially you could set up player made missions that allow you to reward recipes outside those given normally as part of missions.
It's probable that AV's could be added. I'd imagine player made AVs would at best allow you to reskin currently available AVs, so you're basically choosing from a list of current AV power combos and then design a body for it, this would allow AI to be correct.
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From the few (very minor) hints we've had so far, the missions themselves will be hosted online and downloadable to play, but I am pretty darn certain that you will need to be logged in to the servers to actually play them.
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There are a couple of ways to do it. One would be to host the user created content on a dedicated server. You could copy your live character, or level up a character on the UCC server, but you wouldn't be able to copy a character from the UCC server to live, or play live missions on the UCC server.
I really should do something about this signature.
i would rather they were hosted thought the SG computer or something.
as for the ideas posted, I'm sure some of you would like to be able to create arc's yes? and if you can choose mob and map type why not just a series of open maps with the mob of choice? maybe cycle through a few to break up the monotony? maybe not, don't want to de optimise by accident
flexibility and rewards will cause problems.
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<ul type="square">[*]choose level range for mission
[*]choose map type
[*]for offices/labs/sewers etc layout map, for street maps they'd come as currently in game
[*]choose villain type from those available at level of mission and lay first spawn site
[*]lay subsequent spawns (probably the editor will restrict you from laying mobs within x square of each other based on the current dev parameters)
[*]add in mission title, mission story and any dialogue for npcs[/list]The game will then generate mob spawn size based on player mission difficulty and use current xp settings for mobs chosen. Mission reward will be same as for mission of that level. I'd be surprised if initially you could set up player made missions that allow you to reward recipes outside those given normally as part of missions.
It's probable that AV's could be added. I'd imagine player made AVs would at best allow you to reskin currently available AVs, so you're basically choosing from a list of current AV power combos and then design a body for it, this would allow AI to be correct.
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I agree with most of this except the placing of spawns. I don't think we will be allowed to place spawns. As rooms currently are, spawns in a mission are always in the same place in a certain room. For example; in the council pool room, the mobs are generally always in the same places in that room. So I predict (and I am merely guessing here) that we will be allowed to place the room tiles like in a base editor and then we will be able to edit the spawns that are always in those rooms to add named bosses, dialogue etc. We may even be allowed to place patrolling spawns although these may need to controlling. This is how i think setting spawns may work.
With regards to the reward debate, i think that there is no reason to restrict exp/inf rewards from mobs if the map creator is designed as above, so that large concentrations of spawns cannot be made. Also, i fully expect that if we are allowed to create proper story arcs, then these will be allowed the normal SO and exp enhancement reward since there are plenty of really short arcs in game already which can be grinded (ground?) if so desired. They will probably have a minimum number of missions in an arc though, I'd have thought. Doubt we will be allowed to write our own TFs with access to the TF recipe pool as rewards, far too exploitable without adequate restrictions.
Just my 2p 
@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!
Imaginary Inc.
Twitter me!
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From the few (very minor) hints we've had so far, the missions themselves will be hosted online and downloadable to play, but I am pretty darn certain that you will need to be logged in to the servers to actually play them.
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There are a couple of ways to do it. One would be to host the user created content on a dedicated server. You could copy your live character, or level up a character on the UCC server, but you wouldn't be able to copy a character from the UCC server to live, or play live missions on the UCC server.
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That'd be a poor way to do it IMO, you'd split the player base even further.
The one thing I'd like over everything else would be the ability to set the spawn points. If I was ever to torture everyone with my atrocious attempts at a mission story I'd have mobs spawn in every side room that never currently gets a spawn and in areas that people ignore because nothing ever spawns there.
Oh yeah, It would be awesome to be able to do that. I think thats one of the reasons I'm going off CoX is that after 3 years I know exactly where the spawns are going to be as soon as I glance at a room. But I just don't think the Devs will give us that capability since they don't seem to have given it to themselves! However I would love to be proved wrong as the player generated missions would maintain a bit of my interest in the game. I've renewed my WoW subscription...
@Jaw Dropper - Toons of all levels so drop me a line!
Imaginary Inc.
Twitter me!
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I'd imagine you'd access them through Ouroboros - and that they'd load in just like a standard mission would. Also, the creation of them would be handled just like creating a base. Nothing outside of the game itself - at least, as long as they're keeping it simple.
*shrugs*
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Nice idea, Aardy. Having the Challenge Settings on it would be cool too.
...I'm not sure about having that creepy Mender Silos around, though, he brasses me off something rotten. How about Dr. Brainstorm's Mighty Possibilty Engine?
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?
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Basically, if they do allow full rewards, xp grinders, inf farmers and badge hunters will have no reason to play the live game. Cue deserted servers and the death of the game.
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But this will still be the live game - you'll still log on your avatar, and team up and access player created missions from some kind of contact/contacts, just like "real" missions.
The whole go to a special place, access a mission list, select a mission and play thing didn't kill the servers when they introduced it with Ouroboros, so I don't really think player created missions will be any different.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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*exception: no good ever came of MS Word
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I take exception to that
So what is the word processor that all the "cool people" are using? I'd hate to be out of fashion 
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The majority of players play for xp and inf
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Who gave you the right to speek for "the majority"? You mean YOU.
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Take joining someone else on a mission: how often do you read their dialogue?
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Whenever I get the chance, always if it is one I haven't done before.
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There's a point where you know enough about the story to stop reading "because the butler did it" as you've already read the ending.
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No one is suggesting that you play the same player created mission over and over again. With enough creative players you could get a new story every day.
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players who are still obsessed with inf and xp won't play
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so, they won't play. Why should I care? Players who like stories will create stories for other players who like stories. Players who don't like stories can go grind newspaper missions.
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Otherwise I'll just stick with badgehunters the next time someone offers the Paragon Protector's map heroside or wait till there's a lv50 Overseer hunting party.
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Sure, that's fine, why not. Not everyone needs to do player created missions.
[/ QUOTE ]Well aside from putting words in my mouth (figuratively), you've just highlighted exactly what I mean; not everyone is like you or me.
Some teams I join are content with playing at whatever rep they want although if it seems too slow, talk of "upping the rep" usually starts or picking the player whose level is highest and only doing their missions (or a combination of the two).
"With enough creative players" implies that there won't be thousands of dull missions (or as I said last time rescuing Doctor Peter Enis) or that the mission creator itself will be flexible enough to allow such customisation. But there has to be incentive enough to get most players using it. Not everyone needs to do player created missions especially when/if they offer no reward to do it other than a brilliant story. Put simply would players rather do the STF or fight Hamidon for a Hami-O? 9 times out of 10 it will be the STF as even a failure nets some reward for the time invested from enhancements, salvage and recipes to sell (especially good since common IO recipes at lv50 go for more then rare counterparts).
I don't play for xp or inf; I'll get it as it comes and I don't go out of my way to get the highest inf/xp gain for my time. I'd rather do a TF on the lowest rep than the highest because I prefer fun as opposed to challenge (another reason I won't do the Hamidon as it stands). Don't speak for me PRAF. From my experience other players I have been with have wanted to do the highest reps, gain the most xp, move as quickly as possible to the next mission, timed or not. I don't and taking my quotes out of context pisses me off. If incentives are non existent then it will just be players like you who play for the story. Or like a PVP zone that only gets used on the occasion that someone feels inclined to.
If they don't get players using this creator then it will just be yet more wasted resources that would be better served elsewhere. Rewards are a good incentive to get the inf/xp hungry interested and maybe they'd decide to make their own uber mission and then get their friends and their friends. Once they get hooked it could get more players playing and more new "creative" players making even more stories, rolling out a wave of better and more creative maps with ever more interestng villains/heroes to battle.
Greed is a powerful tool you know; once they get hooked, they might stop farming the [censored] out of the same map leading to nerfs of powers or changes in missions which usually come too late to matter or they find making maps more of a challenge and realise that xp isn't everything when they come across your story.
The only thing I can hope is that the addition of a fully customisable mission creator is that it would stem from a revamped base-building system.
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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MUSIC EDITOR!
To be able to insert your own music into a map, but at a limited volume. Then maybe have it play high at key points, like in the sewers' some places, and at the entrance of missions.
Or have a specific song put on during a boss fight, or cutscene! That would add SO much atmosphere.
@MidnightGuard - on Union you may know me as:
Mr. Vile - Electroman X - Zenodorus - Battler
Naga Knight - Stinkspitter
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MUSIC EDITOR!
To be able to insert your own music into a map, but at a limited volume. Then maybe have it play high at key points, like in the sewers' some places, and at the entrance of missions.
Or have a specific song put on during a boss fight, or cutscene! That would add SO much atmosphere.
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Yeah... I can really see the RIAA letting them do THAT!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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not everyone is like you or me.
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Absolutely, which was the point I was trying to make. Peaple are motivated by different things, and you are never going to be able to design a mission editor that appeals to all of them.
However, alowing full rewards has the potential to kill the live game, so unless the devs are very very stupid they aren't going to take that path.
So creating a mission editor that suits the storytellers is a better option, and has the potential to attract in the quite considerable number of NWN players who spend most of thier time in the powerful mission creator.
Already in CoX, there are many players who spend much of thier play time in the costume editor, despite there being no xp, inf or other phat l00t available there, I don't see why player created content would be any different.
I really should do something about this signature.
Several people have talked about placing spawns/glowies - I completely agree. It would make such a difference - having to explore levels carefully once again, since you had no idea whether that small saferoom in the office maps would be safe.
And being able to place a boss (Or EB!) just around an unexpected corner - heh, it would be nice, just to shake things up a little.
Another thing would be the types of mobs - I'd love to place spellcasting circle (the one where 3 of them are channelling the green energy skull), rather than the standard type.
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
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MUSIC EDITOR!
To be able to insert your own music into a map, but at a limited volume. Then maybe have it play high at key points, like in the sewers' some places, and at the entrance of missions.
Or have a specific song put on during a boss fight, or cutscene! That would add SO much atmosphere.
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Yeah... I can really see the RIAA letting them do THAT!
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Oh, crud, forgot about that. I usually listen to music from the Newgrounds Audio Portal, which is homemade music. Only have to give credit to the creator to use it.
@MidnightGuard - on Union you may know me as:
Mr. Vile - Electroman X - Zenodorus - Battler
Naga Knight - Stinkspitter
Things just keep cropping up!
I want to (hopefully) be able to create a story arc along the lines of Kheldians and VEATS - ie one which gives you missions every 5 levels and will last for your whole heroic/villainous career.
That would be brilliant and would definitely add some depth.
"Idealism is such a wonderful thing. All you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use." - Kerr Avon
Myopic Aardvark on Twitter
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I want to (hopefully) be able to create a story arc along the lines of Kheldians and VEATS - ie one which gives you missions every 5 levels and will last for your whole heroic/villainous career.
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That would be very cool.
On a similar but different tack I've been rather unimpressed with the VEAT storyline so far (L35 atm) - it has certainly been one notable area where I prefer Kheldians over SoA. Though maybe the whole Destined One schtick is just starting to grate on me because I've spent so long on redside.
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Well, CoH is a superhero game. "Derivative junk" is pretty much integral to the genre.
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Thing is, anyone can pick up a pencil / paintbrush / Photoshop and draw a comic book, or pick up a quill / typewriter / WP programme* and write a book.
Whether they're good at it or not's irrelevant, they'll like it.
Thing is, when you give the whole world the tools, everyone'll pick 'em up. And just occasionally there'll be a Jane Austen, Dave Gibbons or JK Rowling amongst the vast reams of Dan Browns.
So there's the potential for some really good arcs that could really improve the game in there, given time, love and attention. Whether that potential is realised is another matter, but best to be glass half full about these things
*exception: no good ever came of MS Word, [i]except Aardy's potential book, which I volunteer to perform a purification ritual involving joss sticks and whalesong CDs over and port to Publisher if need be before it goes out. *hug*
Is it time for the dance of joy yet?