I12 Info: Map Desync Bug
By
Baby_Phoenix,
Posted on: 2008-05-23 09:32 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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As I have stated earlier in this thread, we have already verified that for some people the problem has been solved through changes in local configuration. Solved, not bypassed or worked-around. If asking a player to change a firewall config, change an antivirus config, change a router config, update network drivers permanently solves the problem for that player ... well, that's a solution and not a workaround.
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I'd really appreciate that we not see posts that imply our support staff are incompetent and that we're trying to sweep the issue under the rug.
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As it seems I misunderstood your post about "fixing it locally". I thought that support department was discriminating people with that problem, between users that will contact support and those that won't for x, y, z reason, with the later been left at their own destiny.
I apologize for it but we both know that I have a long history of such behavior about the support dep. however please note that at the same time I am communicating with them about the problem, thing that I wouldn't done if I was actually believed what you suggest.
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Personally, I think it would be easier to force a server resynch on using the /stuck command, or a new /resynch command.
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Unfortunatelly /stuck command doesn't fix it for me.
A /resync command on the other hand, will be a good solution. But if they build a resync function, they could also make the client to resync anyway at each zoning instead of adding it as a command, don't you think?
I believe that the problem is two-fold:<ul type="square">[*]They can't replicate the problem in-house[*]Not enough people provide info about the problem[/list]
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Personally, I think it would be easier to force a server resynch on using the /stuck command, or a new /resynch command.
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Unfortunatelly /stuck command doesn't fix it for me.
A /resync command on the other hand, will be a good solution. But if they build a resync function, they could also make the client to resync anyway at each zoning instead of adding it as a command, don't you think?
I believe that the problem is two-fold:<ul type="square">[*]They can't replicate the problem in-house[*]Not enough people provide info about the problem[/list]
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Based purely on my own guesses as to what happens (but as a developer myself, they're educated guesses), when you zone, you will synch with the server anyway. What seems to happening though, is that some data packets for this resynch are getting dropped, causing only a partial synch, and they're not resent.
Adding additional code to verify that server syncronisation succeeded on zoning would probably go a long way to resolving it yes; but at the same time, it can only be a good idea to add a feature to manually force a server resynch.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Unfortunatelly /stuck command doesn't fix it for me.
A /resync command on the other hand, will be a good solution. But if they build a resync function, they could also make the client to resync anyway at each zoning instead of adding it as a command, don't you think?
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I think the client is meant to check synch with the server when you zone anyway (would be pretty darn awful if it didn't), but in all likelihood there is a packet loss somewhere (very interesting that it's affecting so many people at once) in the process that means that the client thinks it's synched, but the server doesn't. Adding an extra synch to the zone-load would slow it down (by how much I'm not sure). Chances are this would be unreasonable to implement, as the redundancy involved could be prohibitive (not saying it would be, just that it could be).
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I believe that the problem is two-fold:<ul type="square">[*]They can't replicate the problem in-house[*]Not enough people provide info about the problem[/list]
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An inability to replicate the bug in-house means one of two things: a) the devs are simply unable to see evidence of this bug or b) they have so far failed to determine a consistent set of circumstances that causes the bug to trigger. If it was happening to me, I'd be /petition-ing like crazy in an effort to provide as many data as I could. As Holmes said, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, is the solution. Right now, thanks to the lack of data that support have, they have not been able to eliminate the impossible. So, I implore and beg that each and every person who experiences this bug, please /petition it each and every time, and encourage any other people you see in-game who suffer it to do the same. It won't get fixed until they know what it is.
That said, since some of it seem to be able to be resolved on the client computer, it implies that there is a problem with how v17 deals with some firewalls/routers/Anti-virus software. I wonder what changes have been made to how the game contacts the game servers that could cause these to be an issue.
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I think the client is meant to check synch with the server when you zone anyway (would be pretty darn awful if it didn't), but in all likelihood there is a packet loss somewhere (very interesting that it's affecting so many people at once) in the process that means that the client thinks it's synched, but the server doesn't.
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This is pretty accurate. The reason why a teleport fixes the problem is because teleport includes a resync command.
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This is pretty accurate. The reason why a teleport fixes the problem is because teleport includes a resync command.
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Bah, he was just copying what I posted right before him!
And still... Giving us a manual resynch WOULD be a good workaround, seeing as they can't repeat the problem...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
fixed my desync problem just took the router out of the equation and the problem solved itself
Heroes: Phobos-, Protector-Bot, Shadow of Ra, Bionic Eye, Entropic Chaos, Strike-Freedom.
Villains: Necron Phobos, Khorne-Berzerker, Full Metal Panic, Smasher Devourer, Degrees Kelvin.
Co-Leader of The Echelon
Visit us at http://www.theechelon.eu
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fixed my desync problem just took the router out of the equation and the problem solved itself
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I wouldn't say it solved itself. I'd say YOU solved it by taking the router out of the equation!
Sounds like you have a fault on your router.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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This is pretty accurate. The reason why a teleport fixes the problem is because teleport includes a resync command.
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Bah, he was just copying what I posted right before him!
And still... Giving us a manual resynch WOULD be a good workaround, seeing as they can't repeat the problem...
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Including the resync command when using /stuck would seem a sensible workaround, if it is technically possible.
Octavian Vanguard
@ohmsEU and @ohms 2
Badging character: Bimble on the Union server, Badgehunter.com and City Info Tracker.
Why only EU players have that problem?
Either my search fu is only strong at EU forum (I've discovered several threads about the ghost bug, the oldest is from spring '07, but nothing at US forum), either entire US has 100% excellent routers and all the faulty routers popped up at Europe only... 
What annoys me most about this issue is the denial that is going on.
"We never saw it in testing I12" - I, for one, saw it and bugged it
"It's your router/network etc" - it's an issue that does NOT affect every character on an account played on the same pc under the same conditions. This alone shouts SERVER SIDE to me!
"It's a UK ISP issue" - what about all the reports from the US? Maybe it is more prevalent in the UK for a certain ISP but that's like saying that the only people who speak Japanese live in Japan.
Anyway, it looks like a fix might be on the way...
Quote from Lighthouse on US boards
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Just fyi there is more work continuing to be done on this issue with fixes in internal testing now
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Full info here http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post10966971
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Why only EU players have that problem?
Either my search fu is only strong at EU forum (I've discovered several threads about the ghost bug, the oldest is from spring '07, but nothing at US forum), either entire US has 100% excellent routers and all the faulty routers popped up at Europe only...
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Oh it's most definitely happening in the US as well...
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....part=1&vc=1
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Why only EU players have that problem?
Either my search fu is only strong at EU forum (I've discovered several threads about the ghost bug, the oldest is from spring '07, but nothing at US forum), either entire US has 100% excellent routers and all the faulty routers popped up at Europe only...
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It's been seen on the US servers too
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...mber=10829384.
Octavian Vanguard
@ohmsEU and @ohms 2
Badging character: Bimble on the Union server, Badgehunter.com and City Info Tracker.
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What annoys me most about this issue is the denial that is going on.
"We never saw it in testing I12" - I, for one, saw it and bugged it
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Unfortunately (as it turned out, but hindsight's always 20:20), one person - or a very few people - reporting a problem isn't enough to put an entire release on hold. If it was, nothing would ever get out.
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"It's your router/network etc" - it's an issue that does NOT affect every character on an account played on the same pc under the same conditions. This alone shouts SERVER SIDE to me!
"It's a UK ISP issue" - what about all the reports from the US? Maybe it is more prevalent in the UK for a certain ISP but that's like saying that the only people who speak Japanese live in Japan.
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Link please! I've checked through the thread, and found several cases of GR saying the problem probably isn't a local or routing issue, and none at all of him - or any other red name - trying to shift all the blame elsewhere.
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Anyway, it looks like a fix might be on the way...
Quote from Lighthouse on US boards
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Just fyi there is more work continuing to be done on this issue with fixes in internal testing now
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Full info here http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....v=#Post10966971
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Hurrah for that, if it does the job.
Ah, it was my search fu after all...
Ok, it seems that enough people are angry about the situation, so I have to ask:
Did all of you contacted support yet and provided info that they requested?
yes
Heroes: Phobos-, Protector-Bot, Shadow of Ra, Bionic Eye, Entropic Chaos, Strike-Freedom.
Villains: Necron Phobos, Khorne-Berzerker, Full Metal Panic, Smasher Devourer, Degrees Kelvin.
Co-Leader of The Echelon
Visit us at http://www.theechelon.eu
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Ah, it was my search fu after all...
Ok, it seems that enough people are angry about the situation, so I have to ask:
Did all of you contacted support yet and provided info that they requested?
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I would, but so far I've been fortunate enough to not be affected by the issue. Doesn't mean I don't sympathise with you guys though.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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What annoys me most about this issue is the denial that is going on.
"We never saw it in testing I12" - I, for one, saw it and bugged it
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Unfortunately (as it turned out, but hindsight's always 20:20), one person - or a very few people - reporting a problem isn't enough to put an entire release on hold. If it was, nothing would ever get out.
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Agreed...but there is a difference between 'never saw it' and 'it was seen but not considered to be enough of an issue to prevent the release going live' 
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"It's your router/network etc" - it's an issue that does NOT affect every character on an account played on the same pc under the same conditions. This alone shouts SERVER SIDE to me!
"It's a UK ISP issue" - what about all the reports from the US? Maybe it is more prevalent in the UK for a certain ISP but that's like saying that the only people who speak Japanese live in Japan.
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Link please!
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Ok...maybe I paraphrased a little but I stand by it backed up by my dealings with the support team on this issue (i.e. run DxDialog etc). Also GR's assertation that
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As I have stated earlier in this thread, we have already verified that for some people the problem has been solved through changes in local configuration. Solved, not bypassed or worked-around. If asking a player to change a firewall config, change an antivirus config, change a router config, update network drivers permanently solves the problem for that player ... well, that's a solution and not a workaround.
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GR is saying that this is a permanent fix rather than something that temporarily makes the problem better. The implication is, therefore, that firewall/antivirus/router/network issues are the problem for some people - whereas the KNOWN symptoms of this issue (both EU and US, not affecting all toons on an account etc etc) firmly point to it being server side as I stated before.
Anyway, hopefully the fix mentioned in the US post will sort it 
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"It's your router/network etc" - it's an issue that does NOT affect every character on an account played on the same pc under the same conditions. This alone shouts SERVER SIDE to me!
"It's a UK ISP issue" - what about all the reports from the US? Maybe it is more prevalent in the UK for a certain ISP but that's like saying that the only people who speak Japanese live in Japan.
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Link please!
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Ok...maybe I paraphrased a little but I stand by it backed up by my dealings with the support team on this issue (i.e. run DxDialog etc). Also GR's assertation that
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As I have stated earlier in this thread, we have already verified that for some people the problem has been solved through changes in local configuration. Solved, not bypassed or worked-around. If asking a player to change a firewall config, change an antivirus config, change a router config, update network drivers permanently solves the problem for that player ... well, that's a solution and not a workaround.
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GR is saying that this is a permanent fix rather than something that temporarily makes the problem better. The implication is, therefore, that firewall/antivirus/router/network issues are the problem for some people - whereas the KNOWN symptoms of this issue (both EU and US, not affecting all toons on an account etc etc) firmly point to it being server side as I stated before.
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Yeeeeesssss, but how could that be interpreted as anyone denying there's an I12 problem at all? This general problem's appeared before I12, down to different causes, and those causes can still crop up now intermixed with all the I12-specific stuff. The fixes that worked for those different causes before will still work now, so there really are permanent fixes available for a subset of people with the connection problem.
And as GR said, in the very next paragraph of the post you quoted (my emphasis):
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There's no pattern in the solutions achieved so far, however, and we're still investigating potential causes for the problem. We're not suggesting that this is solely a local configuration problem and implying we are does both us and the community a disservice.
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I see no denial...
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"It's your router/network etc" - it's an issue that does NOT affect every character on an account played on the same pc under the same conditions. This alone shouts SERVER SIDE to me!
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Some people have verified fixes using changes in configuration at a local level. We're at a loss to understand why it only affected some characters and not others, however we have verified that local config changes have fixed the issue for some players.
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"It's a UK ISP issue" - what about all the reports from the US? Maybe it is more prevalent in the UK for a certain ISP but that's like saying that the only people who speak Japanese live in Japan.
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Again, I've never said that it's a UK ISP issue. I have stated that we are seeing a very large proportion of reports from a single ISP in the UK, and that the UK is seeing a larger number of reports than elsewhere in Europe. Those are the facts present in the data we have received so far. Whether or not that ISP is causing the issue for those players or not remains to be seen, however we know that this ISP has recently begun conducting some deep packet sniffing and monitoring of user traffic and that this sort of activity by ISPs has caused problems with CoX traffic elsewhere in the past.
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As I have stated earlier in this thread, we have already verified that for some people the problem has been solved through changes in local configuration. Solved, not bypassed or worked-around. If asking a player to change a firewall config, change an antivirus config, change a router config, update network drivers permanently solves the problem for that player ... well, that's a solution and not a workaround.
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GR is saying that this is a permanent fix rather than something that temporarily makes the problem better. The implication is, therefore, that firewall/antivirus/router/network issues are the problem for some people - whereas the KNOWN symptoms of this issue (both EU and US, not affecting all toons on an account etc etc) firmly point to it being server side as I stated before.
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I said that for some users we have found verified solutions, and that if those solutions are permanent then we have found a viable solution for that specific player. Those are the facts present in the data we have so far. I am not implying that these possible fixes will work for everyone, and I am not denying that there may be a more deep-seated problem: we simply don't know, at this stage, because we have not been able to reproduce the problem.
All we know is that some players affected are no longer affected after making config changes on their PC (as verified by at least one person in this very thread).
I'm very well aware that this problem is particularly nasty for those affected. The numbers affected are quite small, however, and we would expect to see a much larger number of affected players if this was a server-side issue. Unfortunately, as I've said earlier in this thread, the data available to us so far is not pointing to anything specific as a cause.
We're continuing to gather data and investigate, and as indicated by myself (earlier in this thread) and Lighthouse (on the US forums) there are measures intended to help being worked on for a future build.
GR, is it possible for you to let us know which UK ISP you're referring too?
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
He probably won't be able to comment officially on the ISP involved. I'm on BT Ireland btw in case anyone wants to try joining the UK/International dots together themselves.
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He probably won't be able to comment officially on the ISP involved.
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Legally speaking it'd be a bit of a dodgy move to make alright, at least as an offical NCSoft EU employee & spokesperson.
Good point. Still, as Generalissimo says; it's not too hard to join up the dots.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Actually, thinking on that, can anyone verify that /stuck does not work to resolve this issue? (I'm not affected by it, and it's only ever hit me once, and I don't recall any reference to this elsewhere in this thread.)
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.