Student Badge, Expert Badge, Authority Badge, Historian Badge. I think these are the most pertinent of the in game history.
At least some of this is covered in the history of the Citizen Crime Fighting Act, which you learn by visiting the various monuments for the Student badge.
Quote from ParagonWiki:
"On January 6th, 1937, Maiden Justice of the Freedom Phalanx arrested a group of violent thugs at this location. Although Maiden Justice was able to prevent the thugs from torching the building, the perpetrators were released by policed on the grounds that the arrest had not been legally sanctioned. The public outcry was immediate. Politicians put their heads together and the Citizen Crime Fighting Act was born.
On the southern shore of Everett Lake, supporters of the Citizen Crime Fighting Act gathered to celebrate its passage in 10th September 1937. Maiden Justice thanked the people for their support, saying, 'The Freedom Phalanx has always known that it was our responsibility to protect htis city from evil-doers. but it is also something else: it is also a privilege."
So yes, by being a registered hero you are also a sanctioned agent of the law.
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
They way I've always seen it is because we ARE legally empowered to act in the name of the law, we are, in effect, the same as police special constables. We have all the legal authority, and all the same legal restrictions, as regular police. The only difference is that we're not officially employed and salaried by the state.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
So, I guess someone should look up the Rhode Island laws on deputised people or militia?
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
It's interesting reading the LIMITATIONS ON USE OF FORCE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, with half a mind to how they could be applied to super heroes.
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The only difference is that we're not officially employed and salaried by the state.
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I've always had a minor problem with the "salaried" bit... How can it possibily be economically viable for an individual to decide to use thier powers and become a hero, if there isn't at least a living wage involved in it. Surely you'd either need to have a proper job as well, some significant subsidies or benefits involved in being a registered full time hero or work for a company like Hero Corps to be able to afford to do what some in Paragon City might see as a glorified hobby!
I always assumed that registered heroes would get subsidised housing allowances, health care, and public liability insurance thrown in as part of their registration.
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
[ QUOTE ]
It's interesting reading the LIMITATIONS ON USE OF FORCE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, with half a mind to how they could be applied to super heroes.
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Interesting indeed. I think this part is of most relevance...
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The use of deadly force is not justifiable unless:
(1) The actor effecting the arrest is authorized to act as a peace officer or has been summoned by and is assisting a person whom he reasonably believes to be authorized to act as a peace officer, and
(2) The actor reasonably believes that the force employed creates no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons, and
(3) The actor reasonably believes that the crime for which the arrest was made was homicide, kidnapping, sexual assault, criminal sexual contact, arson, robbery, burglary of a dwelling, or an attempt to commit one of these crimes, and
(4) The actor reasonably believes:
(a) There is an imminent threat of deadly force to himself or to a third party, or
(b) The use of deadly force is necessary to thwart the commission of a crime listed above, or
(c) The use of deadly force is necessary to prevent an escape.
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1. We are authorised
2. We can't hurt NPC's
3. They're always up to something like that. 
4. All covered too!
So... We ARE legally empowered to use deadly force when we have to.
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I always assumed that registered heroes would get subsidised housing allowances, health care, and public liability insurance thrown in as part of their registration.
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I don't see it as a problem to assume such, and indeed, I have assume various benefits are available to registered heroes who request it; but as far as I know, that's purely an IC assumption. There's nothing in the game canon to support it.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
1. We are authorised
2. We can't hurt NPC's
3. They're always up to something like that.
4. All covered too!
So... We ARE legally empowered to use deadly force when we have to.
[/ QUOTE ]
But only when necessary to prevent one of those things under 4. If you could have brought the criminal down without killing them (and they're not imminently threatening to kill you or someone else), deadly force was not justified. I can see the city being pretty strict with their super-powered heroes on this one; if you're bulletproof, you can hardly use the defense that you were about to be shot. Punisher-type stuff - killing regardless of circumstances - is still illegal for a law enforcer.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
Yeah, but that's not a problem is it? We don't kill in the game, we arrest.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
On the other hand, if you're in one of those warehouse or office maps with running peds, and a group of Council opens fire with machine guns... there is a risk of civilian casualties, which ticks 4a.
There are many many circumstances that exist in-game that would allow us to utilise deadly force in the apprehention of criminals.
Actually, that's a point: Although it makes sense for the city to be strict with superpowered indiciduals and the deadly force legislation (particularly with regard to physical invulnerabilities and so forth), from a verisimilitude perspective (I'm thinking Fire and AR blasters here...), might the precedents set not perhaps state that deadly force as it applies to a normal human makes the use of deadly force appropriate?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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might the precedents set not perhaps state that deadly force as it applies to a normal human makes the use of deadly force appropriate?
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That's a good point actually. We have to remember that when we're chopping at a bad guy with a ruddy great axe, or setting fire to his backside; we're actually attacking someone who, assuming they're even con, are JUST as superpowered as WE are. In fact, they're often MORE powerful.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but that's not a problem is it? We don't kill in the game, we arrest.
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Naturally - just that there have been IC events in the past when people have claimed to have killed suspects without there being any very good reason to.
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I've always had a minor problem with the "salaried" bit... How can it possibily be economically viable for an individual to decide to use thier powers and become a hero, if there isn't at least a living wage involved in it.
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It does rather seem like there'd have to be some benefits when you think about the demands in time and money that being a hero makes. Most heroes do seem to have a full-time job as well as their hero commitments, but then I suppose if being a hero was easy, it wouldn't really be heroic.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
I understand where you're coming from, FFM, but my point was even more basic - ignoring the artificial game-mechanic that allows a granny in Talos Island to be stronger than my L8 Inv/SS tanker (after all, she can be in a tug-o-war with a Tsoo for hours, and I can't take more than one punch from him), I think (and am happy to debate, that's what this thread is for) that to account for the fact that the city allows heroes to run around with Rifles, Fire powers, swords and all sorts of nonsense that it's hard to fudge away being lethal in the use of (wow, that was a tough sentence), I am inclined to think that the law (in our fictional setting) would say that if the force being used by the criminal would be deadly to a normal human being, then the use of deadly force in dealing with them may be justified.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
I think when discussing the use of "Deadly Force" in Law Engorcement we need to draw a distinction between just killing people and using deadly force as defined by the US statutes; "Deadly force is defined as "force which the actor uses with the purpose of causing, or which he knows to create a substantial risk of causing, death or serious bodily harm."
So, it's not just about killing someone. Serious bodily harm is further defined as "bodily harm which creates a substantial risk of death or which causes serious, permanent disfigurement or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ or which results from aggravated sexual assault or sexual assault".
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
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might the precedents set not perhaps state that deadly force as it applies to a normal human makes the use of deadly force appropriate?
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I'm not sure I follow. You're saying that if a Hellion were stupid enough to pull a gun on Statesman, he'd be fully justified in killing the guy out of hand, because although a normal bullet poses no threat at all to a being that can shrug off a nuclear explosion, it would have posed a deadly threat to a normal human? That would be... very strange.
As for characters without non-lethal means, I suppose that raises the question of just how the city decides who to give a hero license to. If your only way of "arresting" suspects is with lethal force, there's a good argument for saying you wouldn't get a license.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
Well I'll admit to being the one who started this but then it's something I really would like better defined, Fans works for Hero Corps full time because she needs the money after all!
The way I saw it, heroes (And in fact, anyone) are legally allowed to bring in Criminals providing the follow the law and system police would when doing so. No licence is needed to do it (Otherwise that'd undercut the original spirit of the law!) and registering is more like reserving your name and listing your abilities, so that people can't imitate you or pinch your name and confusion will be avoided with the actual law enforcement agency. I mean, when you first bring in criminals they're going to take your details, else there's no accountability!
I'd assume any hero that killed someone would at least go to trial or a police station interview to make sure it was justified and unavoidable. Rampant killing would soon turn public opinion against the idea of non-state employed law enforcement!
Why do I care so much? Well shockingly my character has argued about Privatization, Government Control and Oversight before in fairly big detail, it's a large part of the character!
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That's a good point actually. We have to remember that when we're chopping at a bad guy with a ruddy great axe, or setting fire to his backside; we're actually attacking someone who, assuming they're even con, are JUST as superpowered as WE are. In fact, they're often MORE powerful.
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Yes, but in what way? A Hellion might be able to command the forces of Hell Itself(tm), but how much sturdier are they? Likewise, someone may be able to conjure up your most horrific nightmares and thoughts to use against you, but that doesn't mean he's going to be stronger than a normal person when it comes to physical health.
Take a look one of your favourite examples of Hero "brutality", the Clockwork King incident... >.>
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2. We can't hurt NPC's
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That's just an arbitrary game mechanic.
I can't imagine that the profliferaton of Novaing, Infernoing, Thunderous Blasting and Full Autoing costumed crime fighters would truly occur without the risk and inevitability of collateral damage and casualties .
Still the FSBA certainly do seem to drag their feet over such matters. The Sirens Call event was simply attributed to "the tragic consequence of a heros inability to harness his own powers". And although Sunburst had apparently "shown recklessness in the past, resulting in collateral damage on numerous occasions" and "The Sirens Call event proved to be the fateful culmination of his disregard for proper protocol the FSBA certainly didn't and doesn't seem to do that much to regulate or prevent such incidents.
I'm not sure the FSBA specifically know how to regulate the Registration act .
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No licence is needed to do it (Otherwise that'd undercut the original spirit of the law!) and registering is more like reserving your name and listing your abilities, so that people can't imitate you or pinch your name
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No, an FSBA license is need to operate under the registration act.
Getting your name as a registered trademark etc, and your identity and publicity in the public domain, well that's what you'd go get a PR agent for .
Don't forget the Freedom Phalanx have claimed themselves to "Be above the law of any one state" as if operating off some universal set of laws.
Which, as Fans would say IC, is pretty scary when you think about it.
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No, an FSBA license is need to operate under the registration act.
Getting your name as a registered trademark etc, and your identity and publicity in the public domain, well that's what you'd go get a PR agent for .
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Well you say that, but I've never seen anything anywhere that would support it, how would it work for people with Secret Identities, do they give their actual details to a government organization? If not then how does that even work?
The original law was made so anyone, at any time, could step in and save the day (Giving actual Citizen Arrest powers, you don't even need super powers to exercise them!). Making them own a licence to do it is a much more tame version of said law!
For the revised law, they added in the allowance or people to form organizations to exercise these new rights (Super Teams!) which you do need some kind of licence or registration for. Although I've no idea why, as the right to form an armed Militia is a basic right in America anyway! Maybe it's so you can get building rights for a base and such, you are weaponizing or storing some seriously dangerous stuff in most after all!
[ QUOTE ]
...if the force being used by the criminal would be deadly to a normal human being, then the use of deadly force in dealing with them may be justified.
[/ QUOTE ]
If that force being put to use by the criminal is directed against a normal human being.
Statesman punching the head off a Hellion point a gun at him is not appropriate use of deadly force at all.
In fact, Statesman punching the head of a Hellion pointing a gun at a civilian isn't appropriate use of deadly force either. At his security level and considering his registered abilities there's a lot of assumption you could make that Statesman should certainly be able to disarm and subude a Hellion without use of any deadly force at all.
That might be a very different story for a security level 5 Katana Scrapper however.
Well, the hero license is certainly necessary. Pretty much all the United States have a legal basis for a citizen's arrest, but that's only if a citizen witnesses a crime in progress or is specifically asked by a police officer to intervene - you can't go looking for crimes to stop without a license, or you're a vigilante, which is against the law.
There's also the thing of Security Level. IC, obviously, our characters' powers don't scale in such a linear way, but you do still need a certain level of security clearance to go into hazard zones, for example.
One of the questions that has to be answered is why heroes aren't just required to either join the PPD or stay at home. We gather from the fact that hero licenses exist that the duties of a hero and the duties of a police officer aren't quite the same. Assuming that we are deputised citizens, we're answerable to the PPD in everything we do - we can claim to be above the law, but the entire system will fall apart if we start acting like it.
Edit:
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If that force being put to use by the criminal is directed against a normal human being.
Statesman punching the head off a Hellion point a gun at him is not appropriate use of deadly force at all.
In fact, Statesman punching the head of a Hellion pointing a gun at a civilian isn't appropriate use of deadly force either. At his security level and considering his registered abilities there's a lot of assumption you could make that Statesman should certainly be able to disarm and subude a Hellion without use of any deadly force at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fully agreed. We are, after all, superheroes - that means that we have resources at our disposal (whether natural, mutant, scientific, technological, magical, anything) which make us more capable than "normal" citizens. If we volunteer to use those resources for the greater good, then the city is entitled to ask that we use them responsibly.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
might the precedents set not perhaps state that deadly force as it applies to a normal human makes the use of deadly force appropriate?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I follow. You're saying that if a Hellion were stupid enough to pull a gun on Statesman, he'd be fully justified in killing the guy out of hand, because although a normal bullet poses no threat at all to a being that can shrug off a nuclear explosion, it would have posed a deadly threat to a normal human? That would be... very strange.
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There is a huge distinction between killing someone out of hand and authorisation under legal terms to utilise deadly force. For a start, the first one is 2nd Degree Murder (or Manslaughter, as we would call it in the UK), while the second is the use of appropriate police powers by an individual mandated by the state to do so.
To use your example... what if the Hellion in question happened to have ammunition which is capable of bypassing Statesman's invulnerability? Does the supposition that States doesn't know about it mean that he is required by law not to defend himself, up to and including a preemptive assault? I think not. Pulling a gun on someone is a show of force that the individual in question is prepared to use deadly force, and the police powers state that in that circumstance you are justified to use it in return.
By personal choice Statesman may decide to avoid using his full strength and power against the Hellion, but I think the law will make provision for him to do so. If it does, then we have a coherent set of rules, which makes it easier for us as RPers to know where the line is drawn.
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As for characters without non-lethal means, I suppose that raises the question of just how the city decides who to give a hero license to. If your only way of "arresting" suspects is with lethal force, there's a good argument for saying you wouldn't get a license.
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So why are there so many Fire blasters? AR blasters? Katana scrappers? Dual-blade scrappers? Broadswoard scrappers? Superstrength tanks?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Deadly force is for when all other options have been exhausted or are too risky to enact upon to save a life. Since States could quite happily take a bullet, or disable an attacker before he fired, then I'd say if he killed someone for it he'd be found guilty of murder in court.
Not that he would anyway, big boy scout that he is.
This is something that has cropped up a bit recently, as someone has questioned something that many of us seem to have assumed was the case:
What level of oversight is there on Heroes?
You see, a lot of us (from what I've seen) have noted that there is Registration of heroes in Paragon, and we appear to assume that the registration certificate (the little card you get when you look at your character's ID) is in fact a License.
Now, this may be a legal technicality, but what I'd like is to see gathered together is the historical references regarding heroic registration, and a 'unified' (or as unified as a bunch of rampant individualists like us RPers gets) understanding as to what registration actually means from a legal standpoint:
What can heroes do?
Do they have law enforcement powers?
Is registration simply a remit to use 'superpowers' for acts of vigilantiism?
What are the responsibilites of a registered hero?
What are the rights of a registered hero?
If a secret identity is maintained, who (if anyone) knows about it?
Thoughts, facts and references, please! (I'm a tad restricted about what I can view right now, so I can't hunt a lot of this stuff down myself.)
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.