[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect. Hazard zones have a level requirement to enter, and it's always mention in game as being a security level requirement, not a combat level. Unless you're a registered hero, you're not going to HAVE a security level are you? If you have no security level, and no hero registration, there's no ID for the guards at the gates to verify, so you won't be permitted to enter.
As for the other things in the zones, those things were already in there when they were sealed.
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Incorrect. Their are villain side missions that head to some of these zones so some things must be going in and out.
Hell one of my fave missions involves going to Boomtown and breaking all the construction equipment so they can't rebuild.
And in a fair few of these go to paragon city hazard zone missions the contact giver isn't even an Arachnos agent, so you don't need the equivalent of a stealth sub or flyer to get there.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Simple they don't think you can punch Rikti hard enough.
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Utterly beside the point. Combat Level =/= Security Level, but Vanguard work off your Security Level. I'd say that since Vanguard work, to a certain extent, outside the law, employing people from the Etoile Islands as well as Paragon City, they simply use SL as a way to judge if you are experienced enough, in the eyes of others, to handle the things you find out.
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And yet they have the same cutoff point for villians who don't have a security clearance level to work off of.
In fact villains have a threat level, which would suggest they are offered access purely by how dangerous vanguard think they are.
Which would altogether suggest that they base acceptance into vanguard by how well you fight not how much they think they can trust you.
Else no villain would be able to join.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Okay, accepted that there may be illicit methods of entering some hazard zones (I don't really play villains), that's still not going to endear you to the law though, is it? And there ARE still areas where you won't be able to do some things, or garner some information, unless you're registered.
You can sure as hell forget ANYthing to do with Portal Corp.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
And yet they have the same cutoff point for villians who don't have a security clearance level to work off of.
In fact villains have a threat level, which would suggest they are offered access purely by how dangerous vanguard think they are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is it unreasonable to assume that 'Threat Level' is a basis by which Arachnos measures the skill and trustworthiness of their Destined Ones? In which case Vanguard, who don't CARE if someone's a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' as long as they're willing to fight Rikti, are simply using a piece of information available from Arachnos, the same as Security Level is available from the FBSA.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, accepted that there may be illicit methods of entering some hazard zones (I don't really play villains), that's still not going to endear you to the law though, is it? And there ARE still areas where you won't be able to do some things, or garner some information, unless you're registered.
You can sure as hell forget ANYthing to do with Portal Corp.
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Sure and thats where ICC comes in.
I mean we can't change the game mechanics, sure according to the game you've got the required amount of visits to the level up NPC to enter some where, doesn't mean you have to stroll up to GG and start going on about todays missions.
Take my character, I've done the starting Vanguard stuff with her, but she hasn't since Rikti have Robots and she is terrified of robots.
So why do it?
Well it helped alleviate the tedium that is hero side soloing and I want a Talsion broadsword costume part.
IC though she's not been to the RWZ and probably won't.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Simple they don't think you can punch Rikti hard enough.
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Utterly beside the point. Combat Level =/= Security Level, but Vanguard work off your Security Level. I'd say that since Vanguard work, to a certain extent, outside the law, employing people from the Etoile Islands as well as Paragon City, they simply use SL as a way to judge if you are experienced enough, in the eyes of others, to handle the things you find out.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet they have the same cutoff point for villians who don't have a security clearance level to work off of.
In fact villains have a threat level, which would suggest they are offered access purely by how dangerous vanguard think they are.
Which would altogether suggest that they base acceptance into vanguard by how well you fight not how much they think they can trust you.
Else no villain would be able to join.
[/ QUOTE ]
so you will admit that an unregistered hero would have to be a villain to get in to most place then? or at least be perceived to be a villain.
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And yet they have the same cutoff point for villians who don't have a security clearance level to work off of.
In fact villains have a threat level, which would suggest they are offered access purely by how dangerous vanguard think they are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is it unreasonable to assume that 'Threat Level' is a basis by which Arachnos measures the skill and trustworthiness of their Destined Ones? In which case Vanguard, who don't CARE if someone's a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' as long as they're willing to fight Rikti, are simply using a piece of information available from Arachnos, the same as Security Level is available from the FBSA.
[/ QUOTE ]
Skill? Possibly
Trustworthiness? Not a cat in hells chance.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Just realised that this could easily spawn a whole different thread, and in fact did in the not-too distant past. We're now discussing how certain things that are referenced in-game by NPCs (Security Level and Threat Level) should be treated IC. This is good.
It comes down to how much do we as the RP community follow canon? Some of us do it a lot. Some of us not at all. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. There is no right or wrong answer, but the aim of this thread is and should be to attempt to reach some form of generally accepted standard of understanding. If individual players want to make characters that don't conform, that's GREAT. Cookie-cutter characters are dull as all hell. But the way the game-world is meant to work should be an unassailable fact.
My understanding (and like FFM, I mostly play heroes, not villains) is that Security Level is a measure of trust that the FBSA has for your character. By the same token Threat Level would logically be the level of 'trust' that Arachnos has in the villain. They bear no resemblance to how powerful your character actually is, merely to your level of access within the organisations that allocate those levels.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Everything within the game world is constructed to work within its rules. There's nothing that says you HAVE to follow these rules, but you can't expect the game world to then work for you if you're going to break them. There is enormous scope for us to work within the rules of the world set down by the developers. I don't see why people feel the need to just disregard it and make up their own stuff; you might as well not bother playing at all.
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The game is set up as a game first a world to RP in second. NPC's say at most a few lines of text! I find it funny that you'd think Vanguard would WANT you to go and sign onto FC so they can track your progress, considering how badly they seem to get along with FC in the first place. The "You must be 35" is a nice way to OOC inform you you need to be level 35, while still remaining some measure of ICness. You can easily translate security to level into something equivalent for your progress if you need a yard stick,fame, power level, public coverage, corperate muscle, etc.
Do you really think im trashing the game world by saying I work for HC and do not get along with FC?
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Do you really think im trashing the game world by saying I work for HC and do not get along with FC?
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No, no, no, a thousand times, no.
Fanservice Girl is a PR stunt for a corporate entity (Hero Corp). That corporate entity employs heroes. Those heroes operating in Paragon City are registered. As she works doing heroic stuff under the Hero Corp umbrella, the FBSA register the fact and adjust her Security Level accordingly. She may not like them, and they may not like her, but the bureaucracy doesn't care about personal feelings, it just does the job. I have no problems whatsoever with Fans not getting along with FC, though I wonder why.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Getting into most hazard zones does indeed seem to be possible without authorisation. You just have to do it illegally, same as the various villains you go in there to fight. Most of the time, I can see it being possible to get away with this (but you wouldn't, say, be able to work with Lt. Wincott in the Hollows). Siren's Call would be harder. Any villain who sneaks in there, whether from Paragon or the Rogue Isles, immediately becomes a target for Longbow and the heroes. A hero who's found sneaking in illegally would have to be assumed to be one of the bad guys.
Vanguard (in my view) wouldn't take in anyone who's not registered and cleared for the warzone - I can see the government as much as Vanguard themselves insisting on that rule. You don't want random citizens getting in or out of a Rikti-heavy area, do you? Especially given that the Rikti can disguise themselves as humans.
I suppose what it comes down to is that an unregistered hero can get by just fine at the low levels. I've done this myself in the past, though the character in question had several advantages, including some forged documentation and a cloaking device. After that, your options are going to be limited. And if you get found out, there may of course be legal consequences, depending on who learns your secret.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
[ QUOTE ]
My understanding (and like FFM, I mostly play heroes, not villains) is that Security Level is a measure of trust that the FBSA has for your character. By the same token Threat Level would logically be the level of 'trust' that Arachnos has in the villain. They bear no resemblance to how powerful your character actually is, merely to your level of access within the organisations that allocate those levels.
[/ QUOTE ]
However while in heroes you establish trust with the FBSA as you do missions, in villains half the time you are actually working against Arachnos.
If it was based on trust it'd be a reverse system fresh off the flyer from Breakout they trust you, by level 50 you've basically destroyed so many devices and take over the world plots that your kill on sight for the most part, if you weren't powerful enough to not be killed on sight.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Vanguard (in my view) wouldn't take in anyone who's not registered and cleared for the warzone - I can see the government as much as Vanguard themselves insisting on that rule. You don't want random citizens getting in or out of a Rikti-heavy area, do you? Especially given that the Rikti can disguise themselves as humans.
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I'd say that if the Government had any say in the matter Arachnos forces and known super villains wouldn't be working with Vanguard either.
In addition to this you've got Mercenary groups like Malta and the Knives of Artemis in the area.
I'm going to hedge a bet and say if organizations known for terrorist actions can get in then Vanguard aren't as strict and Government controlled as you might think.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I have no problems whatsoever with Fans not getting along with FC, though I wonder why.
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Several reasons some of which you'll have to find out IC. The easiest and most obvious would be the Company History with FC and the Phalanx. They've activated tried to choke HC's ability to operate in Paragon City once before!
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Simple they don't think you can punch Rikti hard enough.
[/ QUOTE ]
Utterly beside the point. Combat Level =/= Security Level, but Vanguard work off your Security Level. I'd say that since Vanguard work, to a certain extent, outside the law, employing people from the Etoile Islands as well as Paragon City, they simply use SL as a way to judge if you are experienced enough, in the eyes of others, to handle the things you find out.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet they have the same cutoff point for villians who don't have a security clearance level to work off of.
In fact villains have a threat level, which would suggest they are offered access purely by how dangerous vanguard think they are.
Which would altogether suggest that they base acceptance into vanguard by how well you fight not how much they think they can trust you.
Else no villain would be able to join.
[/ QUOTE ]
so you will admit that an unregistered hero would have to be a villain to get in to most place then? or at least be perceived to be a villain.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going to say as long as you can kill Rikti Vanguard don't care.
Because.
A) they really don't like Rikti
B) you'd make a perfect scape goat should something occur and they need to cover their [censored].
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Exactly, if you're of some use to them and willing to sign up, your in!
Like the French Foriegn Legion, but they shoot at Aliens and aren't so possesive 
Vanguard are a UN organisation created to battle the Rikti threat. They have nothing directly to do with the US government, or the RI government, or any other government. They have basically been told by the United Nations "Do whatever it takes to stop those aliens destroying our world". I don't see that they would have any problems using villains as well as heroes, but they have certain standards before they will accept someone to fight in the warzone, where there is a heightened risk of them discovering <Omega Level Clearance Required>.
I can tell that 'trust' was the wrong word to use as far as Villains are concerned, but I seem to recall that when you do your Patron arc, your patron trusts you after the first bit of it. You have acheived a certain level of access to the knowledge and equipment and people within Arachnos, and when Vanguard come along to Lord Recluse and say "Hey, you know that thing about <Omega Level Clearance Required>? Well, we're going to ask anyone from your islands if they wouldn't mind helping us out against the Rikti - can you give us any way to judge people who would be suitably able to handle that knowledge? Oh, nice, you already differentiate them in terms of their threat to you and your organisation, which since this is a Darwinian Society means that they are the fittest? Excellent."
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
All well and good, but the game mechanic limits you from partaking unless you're level 35. That is part of the game restrictions and they have built that IN to the game story. So, do you choose to ignore game lore just because you don't like it, or do you follow the restrictions laid down by the game lore?
If you're going to ignore it, then why bother to pay ANY of it any note, in which case, why bother to interact with anyone else? They might be following the lore, and if you're not, the two will eventually conflict and screw up BOTH peoples immersion.
Tell me. If you're tabletop gaming with D&D or similar; or hell, even playing chess or Monopoly. Do you throw the game's rule book down the toilet, or do you work within it? It's the same thing here.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
Vanguard are a UN organisation created to battle the Rikti threat. They have nothing directly to do with the US government, or the RI government, or any other government. They have basically been told by the United Nations "Do whatever it takes to stop those aliens destroying our world". I don't see that they would have any problems using villains as well as heroes, but they have certain standards before they will accept someone to fight in the warzone, where there is a heightened risk of them discovering <Omega Level Clearance Required>.
I can tell that 'trust' was the wrong word to use as far as Villains are concerned, but I seem to recall that when you do your Patron arc, your patron trusts you after the first bit of it. You have acheived a certain level of access to the knowledge and equipment and people within Arachnos, and when Vanguard come along to Lord Recluse and say "Hey, you know that thing about <Omega Level Clearance Required>? Well, we're going to ask anyone from your islands if they wouldn't mind helping us out against the Rikti - can you give us any way to judge people who would be suitably able to handle that knowledge? Oh, nice, you already differentiate them in terms of their threat to you and your organisation, which since this is a Darwinian Society means that they are the fittest? Excellent."
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Not really because in effect they'd be going yeah Doctor Battenburg is a powerful threat to Arachnos you should employ him. I mean its not like the reason we find him a threat is because he keeps switching his loyalties at a drop of a hat to suit his own self interest, and may very well do the same to Vanguard should he get a better offer from the Rikti....oh wait!
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Tell me. If you're tabletop gaming with D&D or similar; or hell, even playing chess or Monopoly. Do you throw the game's rule book down the toilet, or do you work within it? It's the same thing here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bad idea to use DnD and tabletop gaming as examples there, FFM. Almost all of them actively encourage players to abandon or change rules as they see fit...
*sigh*
Vanguard want two things from people in the warzone: 1) People who are willing and able to kick Rikti butt and 2) People who can handle the knowledge that you need Omega Level Clearance to know.
Note that word: Willing.
It's important.
Vanguard can't and don't forcibly employ anyone. They ask people to help and, in my theoretical explanation for a game-mechanic/IC compromise, get the SL and TL information they need from the FBSA and Arachnos in an attempt to ensure that anyone entering the warzone meets both criteria.
Or, if you'd prefer to break immersion thoroughly, I'll IC have my L50 main take any L1 toon you'd care to bring along to the warzone. He's Omega Cleared, and is willing to vouch for your L1 character that you are powerful enough to hold your own, after all you faced an invasion force and had no trouble at all.
Now come up with an explanation that fits the facts as to why your L1 can't get in.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
[ QUOTE ]
Tell me. If you're tabletop gaming with D&D or similar; or hell, even playing chess or Monopoly. Do you throw the game's rule book down the toilet, or do you work within it? It's the same thing here.
[/ QUOTE ]
D&D allows for house rules, DM discretion and other such things.
But what you fixating on are purely game play mechanics a way of saying you can't go here until you are level X.
However all these game play mechanics do is show us how things work from one point of view.
I've even pointed out game play instances that show that the mechanics affect the player do not have to affect the game world as a whole.
Hazard zones can and have been infiltrated, hell even the RWZ has none Vanguard affiliated mobs in.
And there is no way in hell your going to convince me that they'd let a shadowy paramilitary organization send its troops into a zone, when nobody knows who Malta take orders from.
What your basically doing is saying that chess can't be the battle between good and evil, elves and orcs, capitalism and communism, because we've only got black and white pieces so if were not playing black vs white were playing it wrong.
Or to put it another way if you fixate on the game play mechanics you miss out that the game world can function differently.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
[ QUOTE ]
*sigh*
Vanguard want two things from people in the warzone: 1) People who are willing and able to kick Rikti butt and 2) People who can handle the knowledge that you need Omega Level Clearance to know.
Note that word: Willing.
It's important.
Vanguard can't and don't forcibly employ anyone. They ask people to help and, in my theoretical explanation for a game-mechanic/IC compromise, get the SL and TL information they need from the FBSA and Arachnos in an attempt to ensure that anyone entering the warzone meets both criteria.
Or, if you'd prefer to break immersion thoroughly, I'll IC have my L50 main take any L1 toon you'd care to bring along to the warzone. He's Omega Cleared, and is willing to vouch for your L1 character that you are powerful enough to hold your own, after all you faced an invasion force and had no trouble at all.
Now come up with an explanation that fits the facts as to why your L1 can't get in.
[/ QUOTE ]
Despite your assurances, the level one looks a bit Rikti-ish there fore said level one is not allowed in.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
[ QUOTE ]
Now come up with an explanation that fits the facts as to why your L1 can't get in.
[/ QUOTE ]
They take him to the firing range to make sure he really can handle himself (Basic checks you understand, we don't distrust you but we do have standards to keep) and then find out that contrary to your opinions he's really not ready for the stuff out there. They are then escorted back outside with a "Call us again if your circumstances change, we wish you the best of luck"
[ QUOTE ]
He's sizing people up and thinking to himself 'Can that guy punch Rikti really hard or not?'
And if thinks you can he calls you over.
If he doesn't you can't come in.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not what the guy says, though - he asks for identification. Bear in mind that IC, security level and power/ability level aren't the same. Even OOC, not all level 35 characters are equal in power, but the cutoff point remains. And not all of the world's most powerful heroes actually look like it. If you were a Vanguard soldier trying to gauge how well people can handle themselves from their appearance, you wouldn't let Professor Xavier into the warzone, would you?
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.