Enter Turtleman. A hero played by a non-RPer who frequents these boards. When he hits CL35, he will not be allowed into the RWZ. Why? Because his security level is 2. That's the character concept. He's not being levelled up. It's a trial.
He can clearly handle himself. He is strong, and tough, and powerful, just as requested. But he's not allowed in. Why not?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Despite your assurances, the level one looks a bit Rikti-ish there fore said level one is not allowed in.
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I create a Rikti character. I get him to L35. He's allowed straight in. Why?
My point is this: The game-mechanics affect what we can and cannot do in the game-world. We have to work with what we've got, and the simplest explanation (and the one given by the NPCs in the game) is that they care about Security Level.
Now, you can create a character who isn't registered, and therefore doesn't have a Security Level, but like Turtleman he won't be 'allowed' to do some things that another, registered, character of his level of power would be able to.
All FFM and I are arguing is that you should accept the ICC of your character, including how those ICC allow you to interact with the game world.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Enter Turtleman. A hero played by a non-RPer who frequents these boards. When he hits CL35, he will not be allowed into the RWZ. Why? Because his security level is 2. That's the character concept. He's not being levelled up. It's a trial.
He can clearly handle himself. He is strong, and tough, and powerful, just as requested. But he's not allowed in. Why not?
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Well as a Non-RP'er. I don't see how it would matter, but for the sake of the argument. let's say he did RP. It's because he's being wierd OOC that's stopping him from entering the zone, he's avoiding leveling up as some kind of challenge. It's a purely OOC mechanic preventing him from enetering, one the developers don't expect you to do normally.
Why can't he be let in IC though regardless Fans huh? Stop dodging the question! Well if it was my character I think the easiest explanation would be he simply doesn't want to join Vanguard! Perhaps he always freezes when asked to do the induction, perhaps he doesn't like the idea of the organization and their methods, perhaps he's just a total klutz!
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Despite your assurances, the level one looks a bit Rikti-ish there fore said level one is not allowed in.
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I create a Rikti character. I get him to L35. He's allowed straight in. Why?
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Beause the NPC's aren't controlled by anything intelligent. You cn happily take liberties with them if you want and i'd expect people wouldn't mind as long as you don't stray into "Taking the [censored]" territory, hell Fans has argued with Longbow, stalked Statesman with a camera and been drinking with the Tsoo. Officaly these are all impossible to represent in game, the Tsoo don't offer characters chances, Statesman doesn't move and Longbow don't chat back except as a few lines of "Be careful out there".
It's strange how we're being so enormously inflexible over Security Levels, and yet the situation where it would come up I can easily see going without thier need. Or do you honestly think Vanguard want people to sign up with Freedom Corp an organisation, that at best they have a relationship with described as "Not openly hostile"
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No. What I'm saying is that a Pawn can't use the same moves as a Bishop.
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I think you missed the part where I said IC like most unregistered heroes I've met there are certain things you can't do.
However the toon can still do them, after all its only the toon thats bound by the game play mechanics, not the actual character.
But still you went on demanding to know how certain game play mechanics would work for some one unregistered, and the simple fact is in character they don't work the same way. Hazard zones they sneak in, flash a fake ID (Hell it works for Malta). Rely on not getting killed rather than a 'get me out of here' button.
Really I can't see your problem unless you've met a load of unregistered heroes who Only when playing the toon, not the character use the same game play mechanics as you do, got to remember most of the game play mechanics don't make sense in a real world or RP setting.
How do you buy things with a rating of fame?
Why do empathic healing abilities heal robots?
How come if your following the orders of some one with a lower security level you suddenly forget how to use certain powers?
How come you can carry three shotguns, a bow and arrow, two different types of broadswords and various grenades, medic kits and possibly a robot with you while just wearing a lyrca costume with not pockets and your natural in origin?
You've got to remember not everyone has to go to hospital when they hit the button just because your character does so.
They could be unregistered but with enough money to Tony stark style buil;d their own medi-port network.
They could be using pirated software and hacked hardware to piggy back off of the registered system.
They could have a limited emergency teleporter just enough to get them away from the map so they can give them selves first aid.
Hell you confusing the game play mechanic of 'go to hospital with in character effects. In character given the sheer amount of apparent technology spells and locations that block the medi-port system you'd likely of died of your wounds and or been executed the first time it failed in a council base for example.
But since game play wise we don't have character death its not something you have to face in character?
Back to Hazard zones, just because the game play mechanic sates: you click here -> We check level-> you zone doesn't mean it has to happen in character that way for everyone.
Just because you entered by the doors doesn't mean everyone did, other could sneak in through other routes like the mobs do.
Psychics could simply mind trick the guards into thinking they are a registered hero of sufficient clearance to go in. You don't stop Professor Xavier going where he wants unless you didn't put wheel chair access there of course .
You could have forged credentials.
*Flashes blank piece of paper*
"Hello I'm the Doctor here with Northern Observational Weapons Analyssis and Investigation"
"Come right in sir!"
If your going to obsess that game play mechanics are the only way we interact in the game world then apparently we hack computers, defuse bombs and search things with our mind by simply getting in range and staring at it.
Now whether some one can RP them selves as an unregistered character with all the perks a registered gets is another matter and up to their skill and back story.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Why can't he be let in IC though regardless Fans huh? Stop dodging the question! Well if it was my character I think the easiest explanation would be he simply doesn't want to join Vanguard! Perhaps he always freezes when asked to do the induction, perhaps he doesn't like the idea of the organization and their methods, perhaps he's just a total klutz!
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He wants to get in. He believes strongly in the fight and he has the strength to back it up. But he refuses to register. Vanguard refuse to let him in. Why?
It doesn't matter how you attempt to fudge it; there comes a point where you CANNOT ignore the game mechanics as they WILL stop you doing some things. The only way to get through such limitations is by following the rules of the game world we are in. Getting in to the War Zone requires a hero or villain to have a security/threat level of 35, and the ONLY IC way to get that is to be a registered hero/destined one. You might not like that, but those are the rules of the game.
Do you like playing Backgammon on everyone else's Monopoly board?
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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He can clearly handle himself. He is strong, and tough, and powerful, just as requested. But he's not allowed in. Why not?
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Because he failed the speed test upon induction.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Why can't he be let in IC though regardless Fans huh? Stop dodging the question! Well if it was my character I think the easiest explanation would be he simply doesn't want to join Vanguard! Perhaps he always freezes when asked to do the induction, perhaps he doesn't like the idea of the organization and their methods, perhaps he's just a total klutz!
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He wants to get in. He believes strongly in the fight and he has the strength to back it up. But he refuses to register. Vanguard refuse to let him in. Why?
It doesn't matter how you attempt to fudge it; there comes a point where you CANNOT ignore the game mechanics as they WILL stop you doing some things. The only way to get through such limitations is by following the rules of the game world we are in. Getting in to the War Zone requires a hero or villain to have a security/threat level of 35, and the ONLY IC way to get that is to be a registered hero/destined one. You might not like that, but those are the rules of the game.
Do you like playing Backgammon on everyone else's Monopoly board?
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Or get in the same way that Malta do and the other none vanguard/aracnhos/longbow mobs in the zone do?
Which amazingly just requires you to be around the same strength/skill/resource level as some one with a level 35 clearance rating?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I would still maintain that the city/state/federal government must have some say in who gets to enter or leave the Warzone from Paragon City. It's a border of the territory of the United States - they're allowed to police it.
Picture the scene. A supervillain has just had a heist in Founder's Falls go badly wrong. The heroes have seized his getaway vehicle. There's no escape. So he just strolls down to the local Vanguard office and heads into the Warzone. He's one teleport away from the Rogue Isles. The Paragon authorities wouldn't allow that, and they're entirely within their rights to stop it.
Besides, Vanguard are going to want to know that the people they're letting in and out can be guaranteed not to collaborate with the enemy. It's not just about how much Rikti [censored] they can kick; if they can't be trusted, they won't be trusted.
You can still sneak into the Warzone, in theory, just like the Malta Group do. But you'll have to answer a lot of questions before you're able to join or work with Vanguard.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
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Why can't he be let in IC though regardless Fans huh? Stop dodging the question! Well if it was my character I think the easiest explanation would be he simply doesn't want to join Vanguard! Perhaps he always freezes when asked to do the induction, perhaps he doesn't like the idea of the organization and their methods, perhaps he's just a total klutz!
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Hehehehe.
Fair explanation as to why he wouldn't want to go in. But my point is that in the game-world Vanguard won't let him in. He's capable. He's willing. But they still refuse him at the door. And the reason they give is that his Security Level isn't high enough to be allowed, by them, into the warzone. When I said we work with what we're given, I meant it - and one thing we're given is that if your SL isn't high enough, the authorities in charge don't want you to do certain things. If someone wants to create a character that Vanguard don't trust, that hates the FBSA oversight and assigning of Security Levels, then that's all well and good, and I say more power to them! But that same character has to interact with the game-world that says "we only let people of SL35+ to enter the RWZ", so it makes sense that if you're playing such a character, regardless of whether you're actually L35 or L50, you would accept the ICC of your characterisation and ICly fudge it so that you are 'not allowed' into the RWZ by Vanguard, the same as a SL5 character.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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It doesn't matter how you attempt to fudge it; there comes a point where you CANNOT ignore the game mechanics as they WILL stop you doing some things. The only way to get through such limitations is by following the rules of the game world we are in. Getting in to the War Zone requires a hero or villain to have a security/threat level of 35, and the ONLY IC way to get that is to be a registered hero/destined one. You might not like that, but those are the rules of the game.
Do you like playing Backgammon on everyone else's Monopoly board?
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I don't think anyone here is talking about playing by different rules. Everyone accepts that there are IC limitations associated with not being a registered hero/villain. There's just some dispute over what those limitations are. I happen to agree with you that Vanguard goes by security level, not whether someone looks/can prove that they're capable, but it's hardly breaking any rules merely to suggest otherwise.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
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I would still maintain that the city/state/federal government must have some say in who gets to enter or leave the Warzone from Paragon City. It's a border of the territory of the United States - they're allowed to police it.
Picture the scene. A supervillain has just had a heist in Founder's Falls go badly wrong. The heroes have seized his getaway vehicle. There's no escape. So he just strolls down to the local Vanguard office and heads into the Warzone. He's one teleport away from the Rogue Isles. The Paragon authorities wouldn't allow that, and they're entirely within their rights to stop it.
Besides, Vanguard are going to want to know that the people they're letting in and out can be guaranteed not to collaborate with the enemy. It's not just about how much Rikti [censored] they can kick; if they can't be trusted, they won't be trusted.
You can still sneak into the Warzone, in theory, just like the Malta Group do. But you'll have to answer a lot of questions before you're able to join or work with Vanguard.
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Which is what you do IC.
Saying that there is only one way of doing things and therefore you must do it the way that those who follow one facet of the games mechanics or you are wrong is a bit much.
When a bunch of black clothed exceptions are not only staring you in the face but also shooting you in it as well.
As I keep saying if you can work out how game play mechanic affect you character when he/she/it is not registered does that make you less right than some one who just uses the normal mechanics?
Lets go back to the RWZ, I've moved the toon through the arcs as and when my game level lets me, I've collected the salvage etc for costume pieces.
Yet even with a few pieces of vanguard tech said character hasn't done the arc didn't have the clearance, has been to the war zone 'illegally', isn't a member of vanguard and has a few pieces of tech she found abandoned and damaged while exploring.
Once again if some one can RP their way around game play mechanics then I can't see your issue with them.
Just because in 'character' you've busted your hump off to raise your clearance level to be told things doesn't mean some one in 'character' hasn't found out the same through other methods, like bribery, seduction, hacking.
Just to finish on a cheesy note, Just because all roads lead to Rome, doesn't mean were all walking the same path.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I think you missed the part where I said IC like most unregistered heroes I've met there are certain things you can't do.
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Looks like I totally missed it, too.
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Now whether some one can RP them selves as an unregistered character with all the perks a registered gets is another matter and up to their skill and back story.
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And here we are in perfect accord. FFM and I are saying that it is possible to come up with a standardised explanation for certain aspects of game-mechanics. If you choose to buck the system with a character, that's fine. Have a L40 hero (unregistered) cheat to get into the RWZ. Go for it! It's my kind of interesting characterisation, and I'd love to see how Richard would interact with someone who lied and cheated that way!
BUT we have a ready-made explanation for why some characters can't do things, and it's tied to their Security Level, so why not use it?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
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Why can't he be let in IC though regardless Fans huh? Stop dodging the question! Well if it was my character I think the easiest explanation would be he simply doesn't want to join Vanguard! Perhaps he always freezes when asked to do the induction, perhaps he doesn't like the idea of the organization and their methods, perhaps he's just a total klutz!
[/ QUOTE ]
He wants to get in. He believes strongly in the fight and he has the strength to back it up. But he refuses to register. Vanguard refuse to let him in. Why?
It doesn't matter how you attempt to fudge it; there comes a point where you CANNOT ignore the game mechanics as they WILL stop you doing some things. The only way to get through such limitations is by following the rules of the game world we are in. Getting in to the War Zone requires a hero or villain to have a security/threat level of 35, and the ONLY IC way to get that is to be a registered hero/destined one. You might not like that, but those are the rules of the game.
Do you like playing Backgammon on everyone else's Monopoly board?
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Because he's now dileberately abusing an OOC mechanic to make a point? If we're following this logic, Fans cannot belong to HC. There's no way for me to join after all. Onus can't be working at Up and Away, I can't even get in the door. Toxic can't be blackmailing NPC's for political gain, as they don't even interact with me and the effect isn't representable in game!
Oh my god the whole worlds static! Nothing we do can affect it! Aiiiiie.
Until someone turns up to GG in a car i'm gonna say no one's allowed to say they own one! Doesn't that sound a bit petty to you?
*Cough*
Sorry, this is getting a bit out of hand. Let me come back to reality. Put simply if we follow the story laid out for us and aren't allowed to deviate, there isn't a whole lot to make our characters really stand out. Hell i'd say a full 100% of the people who turn up to GG goes against a small game mechanism somewhere, I can happily dig up a few if you really want, but I don't see the need i'm flexible enough that if something's belivable i'll happily accept it. Richard can be rich, Red can be from Russia, some people can't even speak english (How do they even function with contacts?) i'm not gonna pick holes in it.
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BUT we have a ready-made explanation for why some characters can't do things, and it's tied to their Security Level, so why not use it?
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Exactly! Why bother to play the game at all, if you're going to throw the game rules away? You might as well be playing a totally different game to everyone else.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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And here we are in perfect accord. FFM and I are saying that it is possible to come up with a standardised explanation for certain aspects of game-mechanics. If you choose to buck the system with a character, that's fine. Have a L40 hero (unregistered) cheat to get into the RWZ. Go for it! It's my kind of interesting characterisation, and I'd love to see how Richard would interact with someone who lied and cheated that way!
BUT we have a ready-made explanation for why some characters can't do things, and it's tied to their Security Level, so why not use it?
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Just because something works doesn't mean you can't find a more entertaining way of doing it.
Okay.....since I'm still on a buzz from how good IRonman was lets use a suited hero.
He's level 50 clearance level as Ferrous-Male and level 1 as Antonio Harsh billionaire playboy.
If he turns up in full war gear as Ferrous-Male he'd be let in yeah?
As Antonio not let in.
However if he turned up with his credentials as Ferrous-Male but without any gear at all he'd still be let in aka costume slot 2, tuxedo guy.
And thats why security levels don't do it for me.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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BUT we have a ready-made explanation for why some characters can't do things, and it's tied to their Security Level, so why not use it?
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Exactly! Why bother to play the game at all, if you're going to throw the game rules away? You might as well be playing a totally different game to everyone else.
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Roleplayers are playing a totally different game to everyone else XD
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Fans cannot belong to HC. There's no way for me to join after all.
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There's nothing to stop her being a member of HC, but she can't legally operate as a hero in the US unless she's a registered hero, and I very much doubt that HC would accept an unregistered hero, considering how desperate they are to be accepted by the authorities.
There's plenty of IC precedence for joining the HC though. Hell, you're invited to join by the game lore itself.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Exactly! Why bother to play the game at all, if you're going to throw the game rules away? You might as well be playing a totally different game to everyone else.
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Roleplayers are playing a totally different game to everyone else XD
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Speak for yourself there, please. I and my friends manage perfectly well playing within the game canon. We fudge and extrapolate where there are holes, but we keep everything within reasonably safe limits and don't break the canon. We're all registered heroes and don't seem to find it a problem; quite the opposite in fact.
It's pretty easy and we don't feel that our creativity is being limited.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Well, perhaphs there are different kinds of registrations and so on?
I mean mabye Fans has a "Hero Corps Special" registration which ties her to HC rather then just another freelance hero?
Mabye teh Threat Level for villians isn't done by Arachnos? But Longbow or Wyvern hell I do belive there was a villianside mission where you attacked Wtvern to rack up your plece on a "threat list"
And I'm thinking it's not just Threat/Security level Vanguard goes on, perhaps theres some basic training or testing they do to see if you really have what it takes?
I just don't see what the big issue is, we have eleventy-billion different ways to interprit teh origins, hell even to interprate peacebringers!, but your saying we can't interprit somthing like this in the same way?
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Mabye teh Threat Level for villians isn't done by Arachnos? But Longbow or Wyvern hell I do belive there was a villianside mission where you attacked Wtvern to rack up your plece on a "threat list"
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It has Arachnos water marks on the card :P
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Fans cannot belong to HC. There's no way for me to join after all.
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There's nothing to stop her being a member of HC, but she can't legally operate as a hero in the US unless she's a registered hero, and I very much doubt that HC would accept an unregistered hero, considering how desperate they are to be accepted by the authorities.
There's plenty of IC precedence for joining the HC though. Hell, you're invited to join by the game lore itself.
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Which is wierd, why would they ask me to join if I already belong? O.o
I was just saying alright, you know different interpitation and all that? >.>
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Exactly! Why bother to play the game at all, if you're going to throw the game rules away? You might as well be playing a totally different game to everyone else.
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Roleplayers are playing a totally different game to everyone else XD
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Speak for yourself there, please. I and my friends manage perfectly well playing within the game canon. We fudge and extrapolate where there are holes, but we keep everything within reasonably safe limits and don't break the canon. We're all registered heroes and don't seem to find it a problem; quite the opposite in fact.
It's pretty easy and we don't feel that our creativity is being limited.
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I meant that most players don't roleplay in the game. Roleplaying is a whole different game to level grinding and farming inf. Only one of my Heroes isn't registered IC, Ulala, and that's simply due to the fact she wouldn't need too benefit from anything they can offer, nor would she if told to do so!
No. What I'm saying is that a Pawn can't use the same moves as a Bishop.
There are rules laid down within the game world that we can either follow, or not. But if you're NOT going to follow them, then you will have to accept that IC wise, there will be many things your character will not be able to do, and that you WILL come in to conflict with other players who ARE following the rules.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.