[ QUOTE ]
Well, the hero license is certainly necessary. Pretty much all the United States have a legal basis for a citizen's arrest, but that's only if a citizen witnesses a crime in progress or is specifically asked by a police officer to intervene - you can't go looking for crimes to stop without a license, or you're a vigilante, which is against the law.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's the point of the Citizen Crime Fighting Act, it makes Vigilante justice legal.
You couldn't detain someone without sanction before the act, you could after. Proving you had done so accordingly, if not you'll be in trouble!
A couple of points I'd like to make: Firstly, everyone here is doing a damn good job of debating this, and there have been many things said that are making me question my assumptions, so I'm loving it.
Secondly, in an attempt to add a level of direction to this discussion, there are a few things being discussed:
What constitutes a reasonable situation for a hero to utilise deadly force? Is it entirely subjective, or does the law make a hard line?
Why are heroes registered? Is it so that the state can watch them?
What does registration mean to the hero? What information does he give to the FBSA when he registers? Is it actually possible to be registered and really maintain a secret identity?
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise 
; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
[ QUOTE ]
By personal choice Statesman may decide to avoid using his full strength and power against the Hellion, but I think the law will make provision for him to do so. If it does, then we have a coherent set of rules, which makes it easier for us as RPers to know where the line is drawn.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but that's... silly. If characters can defend their actions because of possible unknown factors - "That random civilian who got caught in the crossfire might have been one of the criminals!" - there are no limits. Yes, of course Statesman was entitled to stop the Hellion using reasonable force, but there's no way he could claim he believed his life to be threatened unless he had prior knowledge of whatever secret weapon this was.
[ QUOTE ]
So why are there so many Fire blasters? AR blasters? Katana scrappers? Dual-blade scrappers? Broadswoard scrappers? Superstrength tanks?
[/ QUOTE ]
Presumably because they have some non-lethal measures at their disposal? I've encountered plenty of roleplayed examples of those powersets who use magic fire, rubber bullets, secret martial arts techniques, whatever, to let them make arrests safely. We fudge it - because we have to, or else those powersets would have to be somehow off-limits, and that's unacceptable.
Knights Exemplar: Wolfram, Autumnfox, Starlit Spirit.
Militia: The Portent, Wavekite, Mr. Sandman.
The Cadre: WarpLocke, Zajin.
Numerous others.
Agreed. Another great thread that really gets it's teeth into the gaming world of CoX.
I'd be half tempted to roll a Criminal Defence lawyer character and have a hell of a lot of fun with this, had I the time and resource to do so, and had I even 1/2 an ounce of decent knowledge of US Criminal Law for a foundation .
Here's my take on the points you posed...
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What constitutes a reasonable situation for a hero to utilise deadly force? Is it entirely subjective, or does the law make a hard line?
[/ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, the law would take the same stance with heroes as it would with police. If someone is killed by a hero, it would be investigated just like a police killing would be, probably by the FBSA. If it was found to by an unlawful killing, appropriate consequences would follow.
[ QUOTE ]
Why are heroes registered? Is it so that the state can watch them?
[/ QUOTE ]
To me, registering grants you all the legal rights and protections of an authorised law enforcement officer. Not registering makes you a vigilante and liable to arrest. It also allows the state to keep some semblance of control on the super-powered population.
[ QUOTE ]
What does registration mean to the hero? What information does he give to the FBSA when he registers? Is it actually possible to be registered and really maintain a secret identity?
[/ QUOTE ]
It makes sense to me that when you register, all your abilities are recorded, along with all personal data such as true identity and such BUT, that this data is NOT publicly available. It possibly also grants you personal liability insurance, within reason of course. I doubt it would have covered Statesman dropping a Rikti mothership on top of White Plains... I'm surprised he's not still in court over that.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
[ QUOTE ]
...there's no way he could claim he believed his life to be threatened unless he had prior knowledge of whatever secret weapon this was.
[/ QUOTE ]
Besides, EVERY secret weapon is fundamentally flawed in that it NEVER kills instantly and it's effect is ALWAYS somehow reverseable !
CURSES! Foiled again !
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but that's... silly. If characters can defend their actions because of possible unknown factors - "That random civilian who got caught in the crossfire might have been one of the criminals!" - there are no limits. Yes, of course Statesman was entitled to stop the Hellion using reasonable force, but there's no way he could claim he believed his life to be threatened unless he had prior knowledge of whatever secret weapon this was.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that he could claim he believed his life was threatened. I'm saying that his actions would, by law, be judged on two factors: 1) What he believed to be the case at the time and 2) What actually was the case at the time.
So, Statesman gets shot at by a Hellion. As is his long-standing belief, bullets cannot harm him, so he stands there and takes it. But it turns out that actually the bullets are somehow capable of harming him. By the first point, he would be utterly unjustified in the use of deadly force throughout the battle. But the law includes provisions that makes allowances for acting without knowledge - a policeman who shoots a man by accident, and the man happens to be a suicide bomber with the bomb strapped to his chest is NOT going to get put in the slammer for it.
I'm not saying that Statesman should or would use deadly force if Mr A. Random Hellion pulls a gun on him, simply that the law will make provision to cover the potential circumstances if he does. If he decides to kill Mr A. Random Hellion, then he has to suffer the consequences of his actions, but would any sentence pronounced on him be adjusted if it turns out the Hellion had Anti-Statesman ammo in his gun?
I'm certainly not interested in anarchy in Paragon. I'm just trying to get a handle on what we think the law makes allowances for.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
A bit more back to assumption about lore and NPCS, since the Malta group are just about the only group so far to reasonably create an experimental weapon capable of nullifying Well Of Furies magintude power, I would think it unlikely in lore terms that the lowly Hellions are a faction that would realistically achieve, or aqquire and get their hands on or present such a potent threat.
Realistic assumption and appropriate speculation on potential enemy "threat" makes for better speculation and assumption to appropriate levels of force in subduing that threat.
Of course, contrary to my own point, it's generally unlikely that Statesman finds himself often involved in interceding in lowly Hellion crime activities .
Agreed, Mighty. On more mature consideration, I think FFMs post to the effect that a registered hero would be investigated under the same restrictions as any police officer is probably the best one to go for as an assumption. And could also offer all sorts of fun "I'm waiting for my hearing" plots, too.
Okay, back to the real meat of the thread, then. Registration. I personally like the solution presented in Mutants and Masterminds' Freedom City setting, which is that it is possible to register an heroic identity, which (to use UK law terminology) would constitute a legal 'person'. Said 'person' can then be sued, tried, arrested, judged, employed, paid, whatever just like a normal person can be, but does not require the disclosure of the actual identity.
Yes, there are lots of problems with this approach, notably copycats, but it's not a bad one, all told.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying that Statesman should or would use deadly force if Mr A. Random Hellion pulls a gun on him, simply that the law will make provision to cover the potential circumstances if he does. If he decides to kill Mr A. Random Hellion, then he has to suffer the consequences of his actions, but would any sentence pronounced on him be adjusted if it turns out the Hellion had Anti-Statesman ammo in his gun?
[/ QUOTE ]
The consequence would be an investigation OFC, as mentioned.
Probably involving a hordish legal team of lawyers and such types that I'm guessing an organisation such as the FP will have in their employ to cover the endless law suits they are no doubt subjected to .
Were the findings of said investigation to determine that the deceased Hellion's weapon was full of anti-Statesman Kyrptonite, then I've no doubt that ultimately Statesman's use of deadly force was the only available recourse available to him as his life was directly endangered?
I can see the point you are making Shadowe in trying to ascertain what the legal standing and result of such an incident would be.
While it is appropriate in this case that Statesman's use of deadly force could be resolved as appropriate, it's would not be appropriate that Statesman would then cavort about using deadly force proactively under a proactive "what if" defence.
[ QUOTE ]
Agreed, Mighty. On more mature consideration, I think FFMs post to the effect that a registered hero would be investigated under the same restrictions as any police officer is probably the best one to go for as an assumption. And could also offer all sorts of fun "I'm waiting for my hearing" plots, too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely and it also helps to flesh out the idea of supergroup organisations as real entities with, more than likely for the large scale, and high powered groups, vast support structures such as huge legal teams. PR agents, clerical and administravtive staff etc etc.
I think it's pretty fun bringing meat and bones to things that often seem very standalone in the game environment 
.
I'm really hooked on thinking about the counter side and the kind of criminal defence firms that get people like Doc Vahz off the hook, released working on his Vahz plague plot YET AGAIN! Just in terms for accounting and fudging over the repeated instances of story arcs and TFs that multiple characters and players engage in and thinking about the whole "I arrested Doc Vahzilok today", "Pffft. I've arrested him 3 times now, he still gets off" thing .
[ QUOTE ]
What constitutes a reasonable situation for a hero to utilise deadly force? Is it entirely subjective, or does the law make a hard line?
[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I'm concerned (and I tend to carry this over to all my hero characters) deadly force becomes acceptable as soon as the life of a civilian (be it a hostage, an innocent by-stander like those annoying peds in missions) or even another Hero is put in immediate danger by the actions of the criminal being faced.
This isn't Gotham City, so that lowbie Hellion isn't automatically going to shoot the old lady he's trying to mug in Galaxy City. Feel free to walk over and smack him upside the napper, but killing him is BAD.
As for events like Rikti Invasion waves in city zones, if you're NOT using deadly force, you're endangering not only yourself but everyone with you, and inturn (if you take it through to it's eventual conclusion) the lives of everyone on the planet. It's a battle for the survival of the human race, so kindly stop whining at the characters that just get on with it.
[ QUOTE ]
Why are heroes registered? Is it so that the state can watch them?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the main reason is accountability. If something were to happen, then it would be easy for the unregistered hero to throw off their mask and disappear into the crowd, re-appearing later with a new hero identity.
People want to trust their heroes, but they also want them to be trustworthy, and having your heroes on some list somewhere makes people feel better.
[ QUOTE ]
What does registration mean to the hero? What information does he give to the FBSA when he registers? Is it actually possible to be registered and really maintain a secret identity?
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally believe that if your character is registered then their identity is known at some level of government. This comes back again to my point about accountability. If, as a hero, you do kill someone, then you should expect Paragon SWAT to come knocking on your own front door like a tonne of gamma irradiated poo...
If you're not registered, then you should pretty much expect the same if they find out who you are!
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
[ QUOTE ]
Were the findings of said investigation to determine that the deceased Hellion's weapon was full of anti-Statesman Kyrptonite, then I've no doubt that ultimately Statesman's use of deadly force was the only available recourse available to him as his life was directly endangered?
[/ QUOTE ]
Why are we getting hung up on the fact that it's the heroes life that his actions are protecting? Sure, if a bullet is fired at Statesman then it won't hurt him, but what about the ricochet? What if that same bullet, fired by Mr A. Random-Hellion and rebounding off of Staesman's manly chest, hits an innocent bystander and kills them. Is Statesman inactivity then an attributing factor to that person's death? If he had acted to prevent the gunman from firing, and used deadly force (not lethal force) to do so because he felt it was the only way to do it quickly, then that bystander would still be alive.
A hero's inactivity can come with just as many reprocussions.
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we getting hung up on the fact that it's the heroes life that his actions are protecting?
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably because Superman never worries about it, either.
[ QUOTE ]
Sure, if a bullet is fired at Statesman then it won't hurt him, but what about the ricochet? What if that same bullet, fired by Mr A. Random-Hellion and rebounding off of Staesman's manly chest, hits an innocent bystander and kills them. Is Statesman inactivity then an attributing factor to that person's death? If he had acted to prevent the gunman from firing, and used deadly force (not lethal force) to do so because he felt it was the only way to do it quickly, then that bystander would still be alive.
A hero's inactivity can come with just as many reprocussions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, absolutely. Heroes (I use this term abstractly, not to refer to Registered Superpowered Beings) have a responsibility to protect the innocent. If their action or inaction causes the injury or death of an innocent when they know that they could have prevented it by acting in a different way, then they may be guilty of such crimes as ABH, GBH and 2nd Degree Murder, and I think you could make a case for Causing Death by Misadventure in some cases. On the other hand, this is City of Heroes, not City of Lawyers, so I don't want to get too bogged down. The crux of the 'Responsibilities of Registration' can, I think, be covered by FBSA investigation of any deaths caused, and then the consequences are played out however the player wants them to be. With, I suppose, the added point that it needs to make sense. If the investigation would find the character guilty, then the character should suffer the ICC of their ICA.
The wisdom of Shadowe: Ghostraptor: The Shadowe is wise ...; FFM: Shadowe is no longer wise.
; Techbot_Alpha: Also, what Shadowe said. It seems he is still somewhat wise ; Bull Throttle: Shadowe was unwise in this instance...; Rock_Powerfist: in this instance Shadowe is wise.; Techbot_Alpha: Shadowe is very wise *nods*; Zortel: *Quotable line about Shadowe being wise goes here.*
Probably because it's so rare for Heroes to actually kill people (Well, ignoring Players contributions to the world that is >.> ) that i'm sure when it did it happen there'd be a veritable storm of outrage.
I mean people would see it as you abusing a trust, to act with the best intentions. Not to mention that Police killings are heavily investigated and harshly dealt with in the US currently, horror stories aside.
Let me tell you a little story that has some bearing on this. It involves the kind of accountability being registered helps to enforce...
*Clears throat*
A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away...
Wait... Wrong universe!
Once upon a time, in a land far far away....
No, that's not right either!
*cough*cough*
A long time ago, back in 2005, a young Peacebringer, recently transformed by a powerful being into a part cat, had a spot of bother. She was, through no fault of her own, forced to take direct part in the unfortunate, and extremely messy, deaths of about 20 children after having been sent to rescue them from a Vahzilok kidnapping. Later that night she turned up at the statue in a greatly disturbed state of mind, knowing she'd done something horrible, but not exactly what. She kind of went out of her mind but her friends WERE able to calm her eventually.
Later that night, the grisly remains were found by another hero, and thanks to the network of contacts throughout the city, the young Peacebringer was identified as a prime suspect. Thanks to her being registered, her true identity and address were known, and Sunstorm, the leader of the Peacebringer contingent on Earth, wisely decided to call in the most recognised heroes in the world to apprehend the suspect, as he didn't want even MORE distrust placed on his fellow aliens. And so it was that early that morning, the Freedom Phalanx burst in to the young Peacebringers apartment and arrested her. She did not resist arrest, and came quietly.
A court case ensued, and during the course of it, it was revealed that the Peacebringer was not responsible for her actions as she was under the influence of the same powerful entity which had transformed her into the part cat to start with, who had his own plans for her.
She did not escape punishment though... By her own hands, 20 children had died, and whilst she was not responsible, she could not be allowed to walk completely free. She was therefore placed under the guardianship of a well known organisation of superpowered beings for a period of 1 year. To this day, the after effects of that event colour her daily life.
That young Peacebringer was Ellie.
</End Story>
So you see, her being registered actually made it possible for her to be stopped. Who knows how much more damage she might have done had she just been an unknown powered being?
EDIT: BTW, these events are a matter of public record as far as Paragon City is concerned. At the time it was RPed, it was all over the press and TV news.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Inaction is liable? Dear god, then everytime any hero passes by any mugging or what ever, they could be sued by the muggee?
It happens all the time, high levels ignoring the low level mobs, or even the same conned mobs... etc, etc... (though it annoys me when people mention that see it IC and find it a bad thing... they're just as guilty!)
Anyone consider the flip side of the investigations?
"I'm waiting for my hearing, which I hear will be in about 18 months, given the current case load and manpower..."
@ShadowGhost & @Ghostie
The Grav Mistress, Mistress of Gravity
If you have nothing useful to say, you have two choices: Say something useless or stay quiet.
[ QUOTE ]
Getting your name as a registered trademark etc, and your identity and publicity in the public domain, well that's what you'd go get a PR agent for.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much what happened to Crimson Archer when he found himself at the sharp end of a lawsuit over copyright infringment from an ex-villain claiming to have been called Crimson Archer before him!
Registration and a publicly known identity didn't protect him from it one bit. 
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
I was under the impression that registration would cover two things.
1.) Authority to act as a law enforcement officer (with all the responsibilities and oversight that entails).
2.) Certification of competency in deploying superpowers in his/her "duties".(the last thing a city needs is an Energy Blaster who Novas every time she sneezes.)
[ QUOTE ]
One of the questions that has to be answered is why heroes aren't just required to either join the PPD or stay at home.
[/ QUOTE ]
If we had to do the above then, arguably, there would be no City of Heroes or Villains.
Adding my two inf, I know that on occasion debate sparks interest in a variety of topics. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on perspective) the game World is black and white in this respect: The Hero ID is the card you carry around/pin up on your wall/have as your Facebook profile picture that denotes that you have been registered as a hero.
Using fudge, or as I'm consistently starting to believe in the term as 'imagination', some vigilantes can be played as such without reference to the Hero ID, which as we all know is a handy mechanism for adding Character Information and stating Battle Cries.
If the game were indeed Real Life (tm) then the majority of heroes would probably have to have a job on the side or would be sent straight to the local mental health service office and appropriately counselled/sectioned. The others with 'normal' abilities would probably be in the armed forces/terrorising their town with guns/in the circus/working at Butlins (archers).
I have to place myself firmly in the 'fortunately this is a game' camp. The loose and vague game mechanics and in-game justifications of Registered Heroes allows me enough scope with my imagination/fudge to create a Hero as a 'straight-out-of-the-box' recruit from MAGI or whoever; a witch who has no relationship with the law but by her very acts is deemed to be heroic, although if the authorities ever found out and she was involved in an act which may endanger civilians then yadayadayada.
As for not hurting NPCS, well if you think about it then the majority of hostages and mindless runners in instanced missions should be something brown and sticky on the floor by now. But, keeping my perspective, it's not real life: they are merely represnting the idea that Paragon is populated with people. The game mechanics just don't warrant too much thinking about in terms of translating to real life.
Of course, that said, there's nothing stopping creativity within roleplay. There have been and will continue to be, I've no doubt, stories of heroes perhaps losing their nerve and frying that mugger. Heck, it could even lead to an interesting court case, RPd out by the community (imagines 'Injury Lawyers 4 U'...) but I think in those sorts of cases it's best hacked away at by a group of consenting RPers and presented as a pre-agreed rules piece of RP. I don't think this kind of thing can necessarily be sorted out 'on the hop' and SHadowe, you know full well that trying to get any sort of consensus just won't happen.
I, for one, think that's a good thing.
*looks back at the post* Perhaps not so much of my 2 inf, perhaps moreso the cost of a Purple IO? 
Actually there's plenty of good reasons they're not made to join the PPD. The Might for Right act has left a bitter taste about heroes being required to serve the government as well as the fact the government simply doesn't have the manpower to enforce the law without heroes help. Even if half of the current heroes consented they'd find themselves considerably short staffed.
Also as said, it goes against the spirit of the original Law! That allows anyone to step in and arrest someone providing they follow the rules Police Officers would.
The Hero Registration Licence to me is an OOC document made to look a bit neater than the bland character sheet. I mean..not all our heroes have done the Outbreak mission, even if we did do the tutorial. It'd strain credibility a little!
Why am I so keen to flesh this out? Well it's a big thing for my character! They believe heavily in government oversight and accountability, even going as far to occasionally voice the opinion (In her own nervous little way) that Heroes not in the employ of the government are more of a liability than they are a help.
As for ignoring the fact that you need to make money? That'd kill a lot of characters quirks and motivation! I don't think it's something you should hand wave so nonchalantly. It can be quite character building, or just an interesting side note.
[ QUOTE ]
Well I'll admit to being the one who started this but then it's something I really would like better defined, Fans works for Hero Corps full time because she needs the money after all!
[/ QUOTE ]
small problem here. no hero corps branch in Paragon, was destroyed when it was opened and another has never been built, as the Disciple Badge explains.
I haven't any knowledge why they are the rep people though.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I'll admit to being the one who started this but then it's something I really would like better defined, Fans works for Hero Corps full time because she needs the money after all!
[/ QUOTE ]
small problem here. no hero corps branch in Paragon, was destroyed when it was opened and another has never been built, as the Disciple Badge explains.
I haven't any knowledge why they are the rep people though.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can see how you got that impression, but you missed a bit. It does indeed state.
[ QUOTE ]
After the destruction of Hero Corp's first Paragon City office, the company planned to rebuild their headquarters here. But public sentiment could not have been more firmly set against them. Despite the patronage of Countess Crey, this site remained vacant, and in October 1999 Hero Corp was forced to move on to another city.
[/ QUOTE ]
But!
[ QUOTE ]
In January of 2003, Rebecca Foss and Hero Corps returned to Paragon City. Ms. Foss held a conference here to commemorate the opening of the company's new headquarters in Steel Canyon.
[/ QUOTE ]
And they've been around ever since! Read the Timeline about Privatisation and the 90's explains it better there. Interestingly, also in that badge list is this gem.
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Mr. Greene summed up the protester's sentiments with the following statement, 'How can the people of this city trust heroes who work for money? When you put your life in another man's hands, you have to know that he's helping you because he wants to. You have to know that his heart is really in it.'
[/ QUOTE ]
Which confirms that the goverment isn't paying regular Hero's way!
The fact is that you can't detain someone legally without a sanction to do so. as stated on ParagonWiki; "On January 6th, 1937, Maiden Justice of the Freedom Phalanx arrested a group of violent thugs at this location. Although Maiden Justice was able to prevent the thugs from torching the building, the perpetrators were released by policed on the grounds that the arrest had not been legally sanctioned. The public outcry was immediate. Politicians put their heads together and the Citizen Crime Fighting Act was born."
Before this Act there was no difference between a costumed hero and a circus clown, as they both had the same right to arrest someone, i.e. none!
By becoming registered you are recognised by the State as a super hero rather than just a citizen in a costume, regardless of your powers, gadgets or skills. That is the biggest distinction.
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!