Stalkers - Shunned by the Masses?


Baby_Phoenix

 

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I can think of plenty of reasons another player would reach such a build.

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Go on then, list them.

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I can think of a couple... a pure solo toon (boring as hell, but to each their own) couldn't make that much use of end-draining aoe's, but high damage energy attacks, on the other hand...

And then of course there's the age-old "concept character" reason. Absolutely no GAME reason to choose those powers, but that doesn't mean there isn't another reason.

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also the fact that EA has a stealth which if building a good char may make you think (incorrectly) that AoEing will nulify your Stealth- this particular reason i have come accross a few times

does attacking from stealth raise your threat level? ( ie stealth is -threat level 1 does it go back up )


 

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Well played stalkers should be welcome on any team from my limited experience, they are very good boss/strong enemy assassins. I've seen them take out enemies in one maybe two shots that most brutes have trouble with, the advise I can think of is don't play a stalker like a brute, play them like a hit and run assassin.


The end is just a new beginning, Goodbye all my coh friends and even the enemies, its been a blast I will miss you all. Thank you Paragon team, you gave me a home from home I will always appriciate it.

 

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Increase chance of crits from AoE. I would be happy if this was 100%, like ST attacks.

Increase chance of crits from held or slept enemies (not stunned). This gives a great synergy with dominators, and would allow them to do more damage in teams.

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Both excellent suggestions. I mean AoEs critting all the time from hidden is really not so overpowered. Yes, a build up critical Spine Burst would do a lot of damage... but it still wouldn't be a nuke, and is probably more comparable to a Psi Shockwave from Domination... which can be done a lot more often, on an AT which I believe is meant to do less damage.

Also currently, the chance of crit on help/slept targets is similiar (only double the chance maybe? I forget the proc of crit on a scrapper but it's 1/5 for held foe on a stalker) to a scrapper on a regular target... so the amount of crits you score are pretty low, this is of course coupled to the fact that you don't often fight held foes, and slept foes can only be taken advantage of once. A duo with a dominator could 'exploit' (i.e. make use of) this, but there are definately much better duos for pve carnage.


@Rooks

"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."

 

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Well stalkers are not as bad in teams as people say, Got a few myself and they do rather well in teams, Doing alot of respec trials and strike forces.

It is sad that most people will not invite a stalker because they need them rather than your filler type person.
But an idea for a buff to make a stalker more useful in teams?

Well what if the target you attack and is not activly attacking you, There is a higher chance of a crit?

Small scenario: Brute attacks and taunts mob, Stalker uses his assassins blow and removes his target. Then moves onto minion who is fighting the brute, As the minion is not in combat with the stalker the chance for the crit is increased (no numbers as i have no idea of scale).

But on a side note i feel that if players are so shallow to ignore a AT because they are useless in teams or seems to be, Then find players that are there to play the game for fun, Which is not impossible by any means.


One of the leaders of the Harlequins villain group and currently on defiant.

 

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Stalkers do need a PvP buff, no question.

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What?Since when?All stalkers need is a fix of the placate bug PvP wise.


 

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Judging by the rest of the post, I think he meant PvE.


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Well stalkers are not as bad in teams as people say,

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It's not a matter of them being really really bad. Its a matter of them being not quite as good on a team as any other AT (given equal player skill).


I really should do something about this signature.

 

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Stalkers do need a PvP buff, no question.

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What?Since when?All stalkers need is a fix of the placate bug PvP wise.

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I meant PvE, as PRAF correctly guessed.


 

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OK do guys how much do you think the following set of changes would help the stalker cause in team PvE, and would it be too much?

- Chance for AoE crits from hidden increased to 100%

- After an assassin strike, all ST attacks in the next, say, 8 seconds are criticals (enemies are so stunned they cannot defend themselves properly blah blah blah), this extends the burst of damage done, would also help in taking down bosses and the like in the later game.

- Defence/Resistance increased to tanker levels but HP kept the same (makes stalkers tougher but still falling back on a lower pool of HP) - I know this would not help /regen stalkers but maybe change fast healing to a inate health points boost (like High Pain Tolerance in the willpower set) rather than a regen boost?

- Damage scale increased from 90% to 100%

- Scaled damage against bosses/EBs/AVs for AS.


@Moondog
Union:
CoH: Moondog (WS); V-Rock (Tnk, semi-retired); Pole-Star (Bla); Demon Dog (Scr).
CoV: Midnight Gunner (Corr); Operative John Doe (Ban); Day-Star (Dom); Commissar Jaeger (MM).

 

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- Chance for AoE crits from hidden increased to 100%


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I don't think this would be a problem, however I wouldn't combine it with...

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- After an assassin strike, all ST attacks in the next, say, 8 seconds are criticals (enemies are so stunned they cannot defend themselves properly blah blah blah), this extends the burst of damage done, would also help in taking down bosses and the like in the later game.

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....which would completely overpwoer them. 8 seconds is too long, you can usually get at least 5 attacks into that time and since you're attacking from Hide, you're likely to have BU on top of the crits.

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- Defence/Resistance increased to tanker levels but HP kept the same (makes stalkers tougher but still falling back on a lower pool of HP) - I know this would not help /regen stalkers but maybe change fast healing to a inate health points boost (like High Pain Tolerance in the willpower set) rather than a regen boost?

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I don't see how this buff would fit into the idea of a Stalker's role - they're not intended to stay in combat toe-to-toe like Brutes, Tanks or Scrappers. Any defensive buff should surely be designed to allow a Stalker a faster/safer escape to re-Hide?

Unfortunately resistance/regen sets will always be a problem as long as Stalkers need defence in order to rehide.

Perhaps if a successfully landed AS gave a Stalker a +Def buff for 10 seconds...? You could choose to retreat or stick ti out in combat a little longer, and either way it would help you out.

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- Damage scale increased from 90% to 100%

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This still wouldn't help versus higher-ranking enemies such as AVs.

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- Scaled damage against bosses/EBs/AVs for AS.

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If Castle/Posi (I forget whom) could ever get this working to satisfaction, it would be a great buff for Stalkers, for sure.

Mini-rant:

Personally I dislike Stalkers because their whole existence relies on one gimmick - stealth - which is simply irrelevent in PvE and overpowered in PvP. Because of this gimmick I just find them too shallow and tedious to play.

Stealth is too fragile in this game to be relied upon, and you can tell the devs realised this because they invented Placate to help out in that area. An unresistable soft mez, a bad idea on top of another bad idea.

It's a shame because the concept of a Stalker is quite possible to achieve in CoX but just hasn't been fully realised (melee DPS/burst damage versus surprised/defencelss opponents doesn't have to mean stealth: see Containment) though it's way too late in the day for a fix of that magnitude.


 

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Good point. Stalkers could be fixed with some essential changes to stealth, but I am afraid this will not happen.




If it has
eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.

 

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Aside from my excellent idea of 100% crits from AoE, the whole "Stealth fragility" problem is an argument for my other excellent idea - increased crit chance to held or slept enemies (not stunned).

Please keep plugging my excellent ideas!


 

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Also I think re-hide time in pvp should be reduced, but I am unsure to what number, maybe 6 seconds?


@Rooks

"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."

 

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How about, when teamed, a stalker has a 5% chance per team member of Hide not suppressing when they attack a PvE target?


I really should do something about this signature.

 

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Also I think re-hide time in pvp should be reduced, but I am unsure to what number, maybe 6 seconds?

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From what I understand, datamining has shown the last thing stalkers need in PvP is a buff. In fact, the way I read things, this is one of the things that complicates the much needed buff for PvE - any buff must definately not buff PvP and must have a low or minimal buff for solo play.


 

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How about, when teamed, a stalker has a 5% chance per team member of Hide not suppressing when they attack a PvE target?

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A reasonable idea IMO.


 

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Also I think re-hide time in pve should be reduced, but I am unsure to what number, maybe 6 seconds?

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From what I understand, datamining has shown the last thing stalkers need in PvP is a buff. In fact, the way I read things, this is one of the things that complicates the much needed buff for PvE - any buff must definately not buff PvP and must have a low or minimal buff for solo play.

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lmao I guess I did what the other guy did earlier.

Edited for you


@Rooks

"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."

 

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Also I think re-hide time in pvp should be reduced, but I am unsure to what number, maybe 6 seconds?

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From what I understand, datamining has shown the last thing stalkers need in PvP is a buff. In fact, the way I read things, this is one of the things that complicates the much needed buff for PvE - any buff must definately not buff PvP and must have a low or minimal buff for solo play.

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Actually datamining showed blasters were the highest overall PvP performer but they still got defiance 2

Stalkers are not kill machines of uberness in pvp that many think they are, there was a brief phase of "how the F can we fight stalkers" then everyone adapted. Dont get me wrong, they are significant performers mid game PvP but at top end lvl 50 pvp they probably lag around the bottom.

Seriously, I dont know anyone who is bothered by stalkers in RV but know plenty (myself included) who have to sit in base and form a balanced team because theres a permadom out there, or a /cold, or a traps/poison.

The whole stalkers rule pvp is a myth and only remotely applicable in lvl 30 PvP. Datamining is only a start point and rarely ever shows anywhere near a balanced overview, even today it would probably show in terms of kills/deaths they are a top performer but thats because there are loads in SC and barely any in RV.


 

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Irrespective, the dev postings Stateside seem to veiw that any buff/fix to Stalkers should under no circumstance aid PvP stalking. Imi too lazy to post a link, but its out there somewheeeeereeeeee.

EDIT: I know how to not get AS'd, of course. Bearing in mind im not really a PvP'er, I still dont know how you can actuall *kill* a well built (EM or DM) PvP stalker with placate and phase shift 1 on 1 - although I could certainly avoid them indefinately.


 

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Irrespective, the dev postings Stateside seem to veiw that any buff/fix to Stalkers should under no circumstance aid PvP stalking. Imi too lazy to post a link, but its out there somewheeeeereeeeee.

EDIT: I know how to not get AS'd, of course. Bearing in mind im not really a PvP'er, I still dont know how you can actuall *kill* a well built (EM or DM) PvP stalker with placate and phase shift 1 on 1 - although I could certainly avoid them indefinately.

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You two shot them with any blaster and with criticals a scrapper, a well built empath is harder to kill than a stalker in high end pvp.

And yes the devs have said there is not likely to be a pvp buff for stalkers, im not calling for one but its foolish to presume one definately wont come especially as the link you are thinking of is phrased by castle in a particularly jovial manner. We can go back through the midst of time and find plenty of things stated that have been recanted. Cold domination for defenders for one was never ever going to happen and yet here it is and street fighting and twin pistols were quoted as "must haves" back in issue 2, then there was ED which wasnt nerfing....

*edit* my position on the matter of buffing stalkers PvP is non existant, they are a flawed AT from a design point and theres really little that can be done to them to balance them out due to certain sets outperforming the others.

The % of a targets health strategy is unlikely to work buffing stalkers PvE due to the fact that it CANT be unresistable damage as this would break the game and resistable damage would further accentuate the disparity between EM and other sets due to the huge lethal resistences in high game and precious little energy resistences. All AS's are not created equal.


 

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Just to re-iterate, I meant to type that stalkers should have a buff in pve, not pvp.

That was a typo.


@Rooks

"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."

 

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Imho stalker concept is not well made in CoX.I love the rogueish assasin type of stalker that Warhammer Online introduced where this kind of AT's could totally vanish on a timer and attack angles made a difference.also that kind of AT had some really good self heals and good melee capabilities even when unhidden.

I dont mind at all stalkers in PvP since they are easiest thing to fight but the AT is too much reliable on a couple of mechanics and is the least tactical set to play in whole game in my opinion.

- Too much reliability on stealth mechanism

- Too much reliability on Assasin strike

- 0 build flexibility due to tight power set up needs.

Its too late for that but i would like to see some core changes in stalkers mainly boosting their off stealth capabilities and giving some room for different kind of builds.


 

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I have a feeling that Bane Spiders and Night Widows will be like stalkers "fixed" in the way you suggest.


I really should do something about this signature.

 

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bane spiders would be more stalkerish then night widows i thnk


 

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I really need to get my Stalker to 50 so I can try the VEATs


Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?

 

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Banes will get placate and some type of strong critical from their version of Hide, whereas Night Widows will most likely just take advantage of stealth as a form of defense boost as well as obtaining the element of surprise, and attacking from the best angle of approach, like they do in the NPC version (only without the angle of approach bit).

Basically Banes are more stalkery, Night Widows use stealth in a more non stalker way.


@Rooks

"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."